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Thanks for the welcome,

As new as I am, and posting this without researching first. The BSF look very close too what's called a Robber Fly down here.

However, the robber preys on other flys, but judging by your images, I have had BSF present, albeit unintentionally.(Sic), based on the "dark" stage of development, that i've come across.

I read on yours, & other other posts about the waste breakdown, and down here we fit in perfectly, Rural, Semi-Rural and Developed, loads of opportunities.

I did manage a pot in the "Veldt" open grassland and we'll see what happens.

Before I give feed back, just a thought, our Winters drop to about 4C, at worst 1C. Currently were at 12C @ 1300m high.

Any results I'll let you know.

Cheers for now

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GW I got on the other blog, I put the wrong email on it. Still no sign of BSF.
Al

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Hi, I found your forum looking to see what the thousands of maggots in my compost heap are. Great site. :-D I read the whole thing and am glad to see they are good guys, with one exception... I need the compost for garden use and they reduce the compost yield WAY too much. My pile is ground live oak and misc leaf litter and ground grass clippings from Other People's Lawns but I added a bucket of mixed goner fruit, mac and cheese my wife snuck into the bucket and rejected dry cat food. It is a fast heating pile turned at least weekly and the BFSL keep to a cylinder 2-8" in from the edge. As an experiment the pile is "insulated" with bags of leaves and the whole thing is on top of/inside and covered by a couple of old bedliners. (This controls moisture and keeps the oak trees and catbriar roots out) When I lift a covering bag a the larvae are on the surface (and on the bag) but dive for cover. What I've done is throw the last bit of old bread, lettuce, and strawberry hulls in a big black planter bucket , add a shovelful of larvae rich compost and put the whole thing on the heap with the bottom embedded so the drain holes are in the pile if any others want to migrate in (I may reset the bucket so it is partially burird on it's side.) a small bag of leaves is loosely over the top with a couple 4" dia. tunnels to the chow not covered, then the whole thing has the big bedliner over the top for shade and it is in a shaded location under trees and east of a privacy fence.

I'd like to migrate as many of the buggers out of the pile and into the bucket, then give them their own home and exclude the flies from the heap with mesh. (preferably this weekend)

What I'm looking for are any suggestions to speed up the process.

The tea and leavings will go to the compost heap or a worm bin, with the BSFL acting mainly as a good food waste disposal with a nominal garden benefit. Supplementary feedings with grocer/restaurant waste may be used to increase production)

Sorry, no Koi pond yet \:\)

Bob



Last edited by bobdog; 05/23/09 02:17 PM.
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Hi Bob, cool project!

You don't have to worry about the BSF grubs reducing the volume of high cellulose items like grass and leaves. They're only there for the kitchen scraps. If you can't eat it the BSF can't either.

If the mesh you place over the compost is 1/4" or larger the BSF adults will get past it. Even if the mesh is small, if it's close to the pile the BSF will simply lay their eggs on the mesh and the new grubs will drop in to the pile. Newly hatched grubs are only 1mm long and thin as a thread.

Here's a photo of a BSF grub that is one day old (it takes 4 days to hatch): http://blacksoldierflyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/bsf-life-cylce-day-5-wf.jpg

If you stop adding table scraps and other soft, low cellulose items to the compost the BSF will migrate out of it.

If I understand your collection system it's similar to the one I've used in the past for juvenile BSF grubs. I have a post about it here: http://blacksoldierflyblog.com/2008/07/25/collecting-immature-larvae/

One thing I noticed about my collector is that the grub would migrate into it, eat the food, and then quickly leave. To slow the outward migration I simply cut a circle of hard plastic that fits inside the collector. I set it on top of the food used to bait the grubs into the tub. BSF grubs prefer to be under something if possible so by having the cover on top of the bait they stay in the collector much longer.

I hope to hear more about your BSF experience.



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Thanks for the quick reply, I barely had time to take my daughter out between rainshowers. I'll make some modifications. They don't seem to appreciate Publix brand non-dairy topping, I thought they'd go for it with the soy oil content.

Re their diet, I'm, not exactly sure what they are consuming in the compost heap, there was only a handful of asparagus, a bunch of grapes, dead strawberries and tomatoes and maybe 3 cups of mac and cheese and a cup of cat food. No more than 5 quarts of worm chow dumped once last weekend. Ah, I forgot to mention I added some livestock urine from a nearby ranch, maybe a gallon and turned through the whole pile. Gotta love that extra 15% nitrogen. I left the cover off and the pile got soaked by torrential rains (so much for the extra N2) and I turned it without tearing it down a day later. I haven't fed them till today and today's chow is the bait for the bucket. If I pull the bags off fast I see about a dozen worms of varying sizes in 4 sq inches, except over the hot center and the dry edges. I'm surprised how fast they can move. I haven't spotted adults, but it is dappled shadow and darker under the bedliner, and the size, color staging and lack of/pleasant odor pretty much point to soldier flies.

I wish it would stop raining, I have holes to dig and a another leaf pile to grind with the mulching mower. (Anyone have a cheap old car? I need horsepower to run my hammermills.)

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 Quote:
Here's a photo of a BSF grub that is one day old (it takes 4 days to hatch): http://blacksoldierflyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/bsf-life-cylce-day-5-wf.jpg


I had to laugh when I saw that, my first thought was: "yep. that's small." My second thought was: "that would just fit up Lincoln's nose." Some days I hate my brain.

 Quote:
If I understand your collection system it's similar to the one I've used in the past for juvenile BSF grubs. I have a post about it here: http://blacksoldierflyblog.com/2008/07/25/collecting-immature-larvae/

Hm, it looks like burying the bottom of the bucket was a mistake, I'll just rake the pile smooth and set it on top. No system to it, I just went with what sounded good.

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The amount of food you put in seems consistent with the number of grubs you're seeing. A few dozen BSF grubs will have very little impact on your compost.

I'm also surprised they aren't eating the topping, I bet they will eventually.

When I took that photo of the day old grub I was concerned about booger references...

Yes, I have a cheap old car but you can't have it. \:\)



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eh, that was a dozen per 2" square of surface area. That would be three dozen per 2" of circumfrence, call it eleven thousand on the surface when I lift the bags....and you say the feeding zone extends 3-4 inches down \:\)

Bob

*edit* oops, I hit the wrong key and multiplied by 2 rather than divided, made for a error by a factor of four. At <3000 I'll stop worrying about the consumption issue.

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Well, one BSF female lays 500 or more eggs so it doesn't take long to add up. Still, if they run out of food they'll go somewhere else.



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Anyone try stir frying them?

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Aha, Sunlight! *runs to check/adjust bait bucket and get shovel*

See you guys later!

Bob

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Well, today I saw my first adult black soldier flies, white kneestockings and all. Actually I almost swatted them, their flight habit is similar to a local wasp but they alighted and I was able to get a good look. Nice looking insect, I'll have to catch a few for my daughter to zoom the webcam on.

In regards to the larvae... well, I spent all day doing yard work while my wife and daughter went shopping beginning around 0930 and around 1640 I decided to take a break. I found the refrigerator door open about six inches and everything on the top shelves "cool but not cold". The critters ate well today. Everything not in an unopened package became maggot chow. As there was a half gallon of liquid, I added all the stale/personally disliked cereal and cookies I could find and a big scoop of maggoty compost. An hour later I could hear them working through the mess. I had moved the bucket to the top of the pile yesterday, outside the layer of insulating leaf bags, and the bucket was *hotter*. I'm wondering how much of the heat in the compost pile is from them and how much is from the decomposition of the core of the pile.

Anyway, with all the liquid I was adding I decided to move the livestock to an undrained container and settled on a scavenged stainless bowl that also provided more surface area. This was formerly the top of a gas-station vacuum that someone had decided to vandalize by driving a truck over it. I'd been using it as a firebowl, but I dont plan on burning anything in the immediate future. You have to understand that stainless is virtually a sacred metal to me, so you can tell how interested I am with these bugs :P

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I found a couple of interesting links, one is an abstract giving lipid analysis of manure and fish offal fed larvae.

Wiley InterScience: Fish Offal Recycling by the Black Soldier Fly Produces a Foodstuff High in Omega-3 Fatty Acids.(Author abstract) Journal of the World Aquaculture Society. June 2007 v38 i2 p309(5).

The second isn't great news, apparently ingestion of H. Illucens eggs can cause illness. I note that a quick search does not produce other recent corroborating articles, but several old articles are cited, including a USDA article or bulletin. Given the resistance of these larvae to chemical exposure, washing with lava soap or a similar abrasive soap to mechanically destroy eggs or small larvae on one's hands may not be a bad idea.

A case of human enteric myiasis due to larvae of Hennetia illucens (Family: Stratiomyiadae): first report in Malaysia
Malaysian J Path01 1995;17(2): 109-111


4. James MT. The flies that cause myiasis in man. US
Departmment of Agriculture 1947; Publication No
63: 175.

10. Meleney HE, Harwood PD. Human intestinal
myiasis due to the larvae of the Soldier Fly, Hermetia
illucens Linn (Diptera: Stratiomyidae). Am J Trop
Med 1935; 15: 45-9.

11. Harwood RF, James MT. Entomology in human
and animal health. Macmillan Pub CO, 1970: 296-
318.

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bobdog, it sounds like you're enjoying your new "pets". I think it's hard for most people to understand the appeal of these cool bugs until you see them in action.

And now for the myaisis....

I've looked into this claim in the past and found only a handful of cases ever reported, anywhere. I believe the cases reported resulted in temporary gastrointestinal distress with no lasting illness. This isn't the same myaisis caused by botflies which intentionally seek out a host as part of their life cycle.

Here's the link to the full article you referenced:

http://myais.fsktm.um.edu.my/3950/1/a_ca...ia_illucens.pdf

 Quote:
A 7-year-old girl from Kati, Kuala Kangsar, Perak complained of vomiting for about 1-2 months. Subsequently, she vomited 3-4 live greenish "worms." Other than vomiting, she did not show any symptoms and was not anaemic.


 Quote:
The route of infestation of H illucens larvae in the child is unclear. We speculate that she ingested food contaminated with eggs of H illucens prior to the onset of vomiting. According to Harwood & James," the infestation of H illucens in humans occurs mainly via accidental ingestion of decaying fruits and vegetables contaminated with larvae/eggs.


When I looked into this previously I concluded that the infected person was probably poor and was scavenging food from trash cans. As we know, BSF females seek out rotting food to lay their eggs near, not fresh food. BSF are found throughout densely populated regions, and the very small number of myiasis cases illustrates how unlikely this condition is. My guess is that this little girl ate a cluster of eggs, or some food that contained a concentrated number of newly hatched larvae which resulted in her being host to a large number of BSF. Of course if she swallowed hundreds of eggs/larvae it would take time to reject them all. She had been vomiting for a long time and they found 3-4 larvae in just one sample. I think if a person swallowed one or two whole live larvae that they might experience temporary discomfort but that they would pass the larvae relatively quickly. BSF larvae aren't designed to inhabit humans and have no mechanism to attach themselves.

It's sad that the little girl in that report was "vomiting for about 1-2 months". I think in the developed world we would be more likely to get to a doctor sooner for the recommended treatment which is a simple purgative.

In the normal operation of a BSF unit a person would rarely or never touch the grubs. The BioPod is designed so that you can throw scraps in the top of the unit and then remove the mature grubs from the collection bucket. There's no need to touch them if you don't want to. If on the other hand you want to use the juvenile grubs as bait or pet food you might be more inclined to handle them. I stick my hands into the colony almost daily to dig out a few choice grubs for bait. I always make it a point to rinse my hands and I'm never inclined to stick my fingers in my mouth immediately after handling the grubs. \:\) It's natural to want to wash after handling anything you touch in pile of waste material. As for specifically using an abrasive soap, it couldn't hurt, but I don't think it's necessary. Both the eggs and small grubs are extremely delicate when it comes to any type of pressure. Furthermore the grubs will do everything they can to get off of you so it's pretty much a team effort. They WILL NOT try to climb into your mouth.

I believe myiasis from BSF is extremely unlikely if you know the grubs are present as you would in a BioPod.




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 Quote:
I believe myiasis from BSF is extremely unlikely if you know the grubs are present as you would in a BioPod.


I agree, and frankly I was surprised to see the USDA citation. OTOH, I have a 2yo daughter that helps with the gardening. I'm going to have a look if the local Govdocs depository library has it on fiche. Those old publications are always fun to dig through. If anyone here has had trouble getting zoning variances on rammed earth construction, etc. take a look, pre WWII those were being actively promoted by the gov't. The postwar construction boom did a lot to change the cultural aesthetic and a number of alternative methods went out of fashion.

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 Originally Posted By: bobdog
I have a 2yo daughter that helps with the gardening.

I don't see how your daughter would find the opportunity to ingest BSF eggs or grubs. The girl in the article you referenced was most likely eating rotting fruit or vegetables. Either that or she experienced some extremely unlikely chain of events. Again, from the article:

 Quote:
According to Harwood & James," the infestation of H illucens in humans occurs mainly via accidental ingestion of decaying fruits and vegetables contaminated with larvae/eggs.

By "accidental" ingestion of decaying fruits and vegetables I believe the authors are referencing the fact that this is not part of the design of BSF reproduction. People don't accidentally eat rotting food, but sadly they do sometimes scavenge food from trash. If you scavenge food from garbage cans you run the risk of swallowing BSF as well as many other risks I'm sure.

I live in south Georgia where BSF are natives and very common. There are plenty of gardens and I've seen plenty of 2 year olds, but I can't find any reports of myiasis caused by BSF. I imagine there must be a long list of fears you could have with a 2 y/o, including rattlesnakes, black widows, pesticides, rusty nails, and about a hundred soil parasites that actually do use humans as hosts by design. In my opinion the odds of your daughter contracting myiasis from BSF while helping in the garden are astronomically high to the point of it being a non-issue.

 Originally Posted By: bobdog
I agree, and frankly I was surprised to see the USDA citation.

What is surprising about the fact that the authors of the article read and referenced a USDA publication about myiasis? Myiasis is an issue for anyone who raises livestock so I'm not surprised at all that the USDA addressed it in a past publication. What am I missing here?



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Heh, at two my little brother used to turn logs over and eat whatever he found underneath - "buggies". Fortunately snakes were not an issue in Hawaii, centipedes move too fast and sowbugs, etc. are apparently an adequate protein supplement. Even more fortunately, while my daughter will occasionally handle bugs, she thinks they are yucky and prefers to stomp them and have salmon or chicken for lunch instead. As far as the USDA article, for as benign as H Illucens generally is, I was surprised to see it as a cause of myaisis at all much less in a USDA guide to human myaisis. Not having read the publication, my guess is the flies laid eggs at the edge of privy "drop holes" and the eggs were transferred to the user's hand while wiping, then to the mouth via unwashed hand. *grin* There are a couple even less pleasant routes, but I dont want to go there, it leads to flashbacks of old Star Trek movies.


Anyway, handwashing is never a misplaced virtue, not with a half dozen nurses in the family and a few social workers. I work with the public and have definitely been exposed to TB and Hepatitis C - everyone decides to tell me after an hour or so of casual-to-close contact with them and I was shown the diagnosis sheet in one case :-/ My sandwiches tend to taste a lot like hand sanitizer :P

Myasitic speculation aside, I do have a few questions.

I think I overloaded the worm bin with liquid and wet fruit, even with the added dry items. How dry do they like their environment? It's a bit pasty right now and drawing drosophila, etc. I'm eyeing some old rice pasta and corn meal at the moment, esp as I just cleaned out the fruit bins (but haven't added any yet). If a bin is at optimal moisture and I were to add a pint of liquid, what volume of coffee grounds/breadcrumbs/cereal etc. would maintain the proportion?

I think Ive gone from a backyard garbage disposal to scavenging at coffee shops and grocers :P

I'm seeing a few adult Illucens every time I lift the cover now. Unlike someone else's flies, mine do NOT hold still for the camera, they have an odd oscillating flight habit not conducive to autofocus firmware.

Also, I have some freshly stale saltines, do they tolerate salt well? If so, has anyone tried well soaked and rinsed seaweed in the bins?

I need to check local bait prices..$6 per HUNDRED? I could've picked out a thousand or so big ones while turning the compost heap this morning-- but i'd have been late for work \:\(

Happy no-longer-"Monday"! \:D

Bob



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 Originally Posted By: bobdog
As far as the USDA article, for as benign as H Illucens generally is, I was surprised to see it as a cause of myaisis at all much less in a USDA guide to human myaisis. Not having read the publication, my guess is the flies laid eggs at the edge of privy "drop holes" and the eggs were transferred to the user's hand while wiping, then to the mouth via unwashed hand.

There is no reason to assume that USDA article even addresses BSF (Hermetia illucens). The researcher's in Malaysia cited a dozen reference works, some of which are about other species entirely. One of them is about how BSF naturally control the common housefly. These are simply articles that proved to be of some value in the researcher's efforts to identify the cause of myiasis in the subject. I doubt that publication is a "smoking gun" related to BSF.

Having said that, the real issue isn't whether BSF CAN cause myaisis, we know that it's possible from the 3-4 reported cases from around the world. I'm not surprised that BSF can cause it, the most important word being CAN. The real issue is how rare it is and how easy it is to prevent. It is extremely rare and very simple to prevent.

Let's put this into perspective. Your pet dog CAN kill or maim you or your family members. It's happened, and it's hundreds of times more likely than myiasis via BSF, yet people continue to own dogs. If I had a choice between being mauled by a dog or of experiencing the discomfort of passing a bug I'd choose the bug and a purgative.

I see that you're aware of the fact that BSF were often found in outhouses. They were called "privy flies" for this reason.

 Quote:
"As a side note, at one time in the southern United States, the black soldier fly was called the "privy fly" as it controlled the common housefly around the privy. Again, leave these tough little flies alone and allow them to soldier on with their job in waste management, as a feed supplement, and protecting us against "pes(t)ky" flies."
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/galveston/beneficials/beneficial-51_black_soldier_fly.htm

I have a 50 y/o friend who used an outhouse as a kid and he remembers the BSF colony living in the pile. BSF are also often found in the manure under open chicken coops which were also very common in the past. As much as humans and BSF are present together there are still only a handful of BSF-myiasis cases ever reported in the world. This isn't a rare insect that causes a discomforting gastro-intestinal issue, it's a very common insect that under extremely rare circumstances can be the cause of GI discomfort, mostly in cases where people are eating spoiled food from open garbage. Myiasis from BSF is very rare because it requires an unusual chain of events including the ingestion of rotting food or the transference of extremely fragile eggs from places that people normally don't come into contact with such as handling open garbage. Please wash your hands if you handle exposed garbage.

This subject doesn't really deserve all of this attention, but it happens to be easily sensationalized. I'm concerned that people will let irrational fears stop them from working with BSF. If we based our decisions on every remote possibility then we wouldn't own pets, or eat at restaurants, or sit in theaters, or touch shopping cart handles, or garden, etc, etc. At least that's how I interpret the available data.

 Originally Posted By: bobdog
my guess is the flies laid eggs at the edge of privy "drop holes" and the eggs were transferred to the user's hand while wiping, then to the mouth via unwashed hand. *grin* There are a couple even less pleasant routes, but I dont want to go there


bobdog, I'm not accusing you of intentionally trying to discourage people from culturing BSF, but I think you may be having that effect anyway. You're speculating how you think BSF eggs were transferred in a privy when you don't have any evidence that it even happened. What instance are you referring to when you say "and the eggs were transferred to the user's hand"? Which eggs were transferred and by what user's hand? Do you know of some case that you haven't mentioned here yet?

Also, I can't be sure what you meant by "less pleasant routes", but if it's what I'm thinking then you're totally off base to the point of being grossly misleading. You seem to be implying that BSF have somehow migrated into people other than the previously mentioned accidental ingestion of eggs or tiny larvae. That's simply wrong and I hope anyone reading this understands that.





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 Originally Posted By: bobdog
Myasitic speculation aside, I do have a few questions.

Okay, if you promise to give it rest for a while...

 Originally Posted By: bobdog
I think I overloaded the worm bin with liquid and wet fruit, even with the added dry items. How dry do they like their environment? It's a bit pasty right now and drawing drosophila, etc. I'm eyeing some old rice pasta and corn meal at the moment, esp as I just cleaned out the fruit bins (but haven't added any yet). If a bin is at optimal moisture and I were to add a pint of liquid, what volume of coffee grounds/breadcrumbs/cereal etc. would maintain the proportion?


BSF like a humid environment, but the colony will have trouble if it's too wet. Being saturated leads to a lack of oxygen and the risk that the pile will become anaerobic. That would promote some bad types of bacteria and the BSF avoid anaerobic (no air) conditions. As long as it's not totally saturated they should be fine.

 Originally Posted By: bobdog

I think Ive gone from a backyard garbage disposal to scavenging at coffee shops and grocers :P

Welcome to the gang. \:\)

 Originally Posted By: bobdog

I'm seeing a few adult Illucens every time I lift the cover now. Unlike someone else's flies, mine do NOT hold still for the camera, they have an odd oscillating flight habit not conducive to autofocus firmware.

You can handle them if they're cold or if they just emerged from their pupa.

 Originally Posted By: bobdog
I need to check local bait prices..$6 per HUNDRED? I could've picked out a thousand or so big ones while turning the compost heap this morning-- but i'd have been late for work \:\(

I've sold them as bait, but like most things BSF it can be a hard sell. OTOH if you find someone who has fished with them before they're usually very enthusiastic. One thing to consider is how long it would take you to collect and package those thousand grubs you saw this morning. Compare that to how much you usually earn in an hour. When I raised them for bait I collected clutches of eggs which were all laid on the same day and kept them separate from the main colony. That way you end up with a batch of similar sized grubs and you can time the food to run out just as the grubs are big enough to sell.

It would take a bit of effort to be profitable, and I did this mostly for fun. I like hanging around in the hardware store in the little town I live in. Not sure how they feel about me though...

I hope you keep at it with the BSF bobdog.



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I think we can agree on the utility of both the BSF and handwashing.

Given that,

I think I overloaded the worm bin with liquid and wet fruit, even with the added dry items.

How dry do they like their environment?

It's a bit pasty right now and drawing drosophila, etc. I'm eyeing some old rice pasta and corn meal at the moment, esp as I just cleaned out the fruit bins (but haven't added any yet).

If a bin is at optimal moisture and I were to add a pint of liquid, what volume of coffee grounds/breadcrumbs/cereal etc. would maintain the proportion?


Also, I have some freshly stale saltines, do they tolerate salt well?

If so, has anyone tried well soaked and rinsed seaweed in the bins?

Happy hump day to everyone!

Bob

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I also add dry ingredients sometimes, but I just guesstimate. Like I said, they can tolerate a wide range as long as they're not drowning.

I haven't considered seaweed before, but I think they would eat it. The only reason they wouldn't is if it was too high in cellulose. It might just depend on what type of seaweed. I wouldn't worry about rinsing it well, but soaking would make it easier for them to eat.



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Cool, Thanks *makes note to add extra bucket to beach stuff*

I just made arrangements with my closest-to-work cafe to collect their quart a day of coffee grounds, and overheard as I was leaving they raise chickens. I'd already told a server (2 kids & tons of dead produce) and a coworker about the critters (during lunch, but they are used to me :P )

I put a 15 year old onto them too, he was looking for a job but no one will hire a 15 yr old. Bugs, lawns and car detailing.

I could offer to pay him to pick grubs \:D Have to remember to cost packaging and labels into the analysis too.

There was another question...thinks...

Oh, yes. Somewhere I read the grubs didnt like soil in the substrate. My compost *looks* nearly like soil, but is nearly entirely cellulose (a gallon of food waste in over a cubic yard of leaves and grass with another gallon of livestock urine) and the happy maggots are, well, very happy. Is it the mineral content of soil they do not like? Also, do you know if they use the nitrogen waste itself or the bacterial load feeding on it as a food supply? I'm wondering if they will occupy a nearby pile of just leaves and urine as opposed to a more mixed-content pile.

I'd look it up myself, but you seem to be awake and if I log into the university databases, I'll be up for hours. They gave 270+ databases, even FORMIS...which only has articles pertaining to ants \:\)

If anyone else plays with experimental compost heaps, I recommend building them on bedliners and covered by bedliners to keep tree roots out and avoid groundwater concerns. Mine are pretty much either odorless or even pleasant unless I am tearing down and rebuilding a pile and that soon subsides in a few minutes.

Don't forget to wash your hands, you don't know where those cattle have been *grin*

The bad news is I found 20 dealated king formosan termites in the house last night, ID confirmed this morning by the local extension service. Oh well, I wasnt using that cash anyway...

Have fun, if possible

Bob

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 Quote:
BSF like a humid environment, but the colony will have trouble if it's too wet. Being saturated leads to a lack of oxygen and the risk that the pile will become anaerobic. That would promote some bad types of bacteria and the BSF avoid anaerobic (no air) conditions. As long as it's not totally saturated they should be fine.


It's a mess right now, but the bin is only 4-5" deep at the center and half that at the edge. I'm going to add more dry stuff and not worry about it.

I wish the bluebirds had used the neighbors nest boxes, I'd try the larvae out on them.

Have a good night

Bob

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From what I've read people purchase a lot of mealworms for bluebird feeders. BSF larvae would work just as well.



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 Originally Posted By: bobdog
Somewhere I read the grubs didnt like soil in the substrate. My compost *looks* nearly like soil, but is nearly entirely cellulose (a gallon of food waste in over a cubic yard of leaves and grass with another gallon of livestock urine) and the happy maggots are, well, very happy. Is it the mineral content of soil they do not like? Also, do you know if they use the nitrogen waste itself or the bacterial load feeding on it as a food supply? I'm wondering if they will occupy a nearby pile of just leaves and urine as opposed to a more mixed-content pile.


I haven't heard about BSF not liking soil, but I'm pretty sure it has no special appeal to them either. I don't think it hurts them. BSF grubs want to eat, and anything that isn't food to them is probably an obstacle at best. We know that they'll navigate through grass/leaves, but I doubt there is enough available nutrition to make it a viable food source regardless of nitrogen or bacteria.

In all of the commercial BSF bio-conversion setups I've read about I think they all divert urine from the waste before feeding it to the grubs. I don't think the urine would hurt them chemically, but it adds an anaerobic zone due to flooding.

I highly doubt you'll be able to attract BSF to a pile of leaves only, or if you do they won't stay in that pile. You've already seen how mobile the grubs are and as soon as the "pickins" get too thin they'll go elsewhere. That's the reason you need to design BSF units to contain grubs that try to leave. They may have happily lived in the unit for weeks but they'll migrate out at the first sign that the food supply is dwindling. By containing them you can hold them in a unit so that they're still there when you get around to feeding them. They just aren't "patient" enough to wait to be fed. \:\)



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