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#115518 - 04/15/08 10:11 AM Re: Water Well Capacity [Re: TOM G]
jeffhasapond Offline
Field Correspondent

Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 7613
Loc: Pond in No CA, Me in So CA
We can send folks to the moon but can't guarantee finding water when we drill a well (or oil I guess). Science is strange stuff.

Dave I've read that 3rd paragraph three times. The only sense that I can make of it is that you have rocks, real hard rocks.

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)

#115523 - 04/15/08 11:03 AM Re: Water Well Capacity [Re: jeffhasapond]
Theo Gallus Offline

Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 12493
Loc: Central Ohio
He lost me with the jackass mental volcano.
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling

#115525 - 04/15/08 11:26 AM Re: Water Well Capacity [Re: jeffhasapond]
FishinRod Offline

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 113
Loc: Central Kansas
Dave - Do you have a geology background? It sounds like you have shallow well experience.

The fact that the productive fractures are quartz-filled is good news, it means the fracture system is old. When we frac oil wells, the fractures are vertical and the azimuth (compass direction) depends on the rock stresses. California is still tectonically very active (rocks layers pushing and pulling each other). Since the stress field is different now, compared to when the old fractures formed, any new induced fractures should cross-cut the old fractures.

Instead of drilling into one fracture, theoretically you could intersect 15 fractures at 10 GPM and have a 150 GPM well. The fact that no drillers in your area perform this service, probably means I have something wrong with applying it to your situation.

The fact that the rocks are very hard to drill is not really a problem. We couldn't drill through diamond-filled fractures because the diamond is so hard it can't be abraded (cut) by our bit. However, tap your wife's big ol' diamond with a hammer and see what happens. (I take that back, don't tap her diamond with a hammer. Lunkers may be able to give pond advice that eventually leads to a divorce. Fingerlings should make sure they don't give out that kind of advice.)

There are several problems I can imagine with the fracture treatment. In oil and gas wells (deep wells) the lithostatic pressure is high so the fractures form vertically. In near-surface fracturing, the new fractures may form horizontally between the rock layers. This still may not be a problem if your natural fractures are not also horizontal.

The biggest problem I forsee is keeping the fracture "in the zone". Our oil fracture treatments are usually limited by the burst strength of our steel tubulars. Our casing is cemented into the well with high-quality cement and allowed to set for a week before fracturing. We can get plenty of pressure at the surface to fracture the oil reservoir at depth. However, if you blow out through your casing, or fracture up your cement sheath into a water zone, then you have a good chance of ruining your whole well.

There is a way to run 420' of steel tubing in your well and use a packer to keep the pressure off of your well casing during the fracture treatment. The fracture pressure will seek the easiest path. I fear that in a shallow water well, the easiest path will be back up to the surface through your grout around the casing.

I know there have been a lot of high dollar groundwater remediation projects in California. They may have fractured some shallow wells in these projects to aid in the clean-up. If you know an expert in this field, you might ask them how they performed fracturing treatments (if they did any).

Tom - I hope that answered some of your questions. If you have a more specific question ask it in this thread (if that is proper PB etiquitte).

PB Regulars - I have an unusual pond-building situation. I have all kinds of idiot schemes to make it work. I need to get out and get some more survey levels to do a better design. Then I will open a new thread so you guys can help "de-idiotfy" my plans.

#115534 - 04/15/08 02:50 PM Re: Water Well Capacity [Re: FishinRod]
TOM G Offline

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 2086
Loc: Dawson Tx
Fishinrod,yes,thank you.It answered quite a bit and I understood most of it.
If you need help coming up with idiot ideas,let me know,what I cant come up with,other members here can.I havent had the pleasure of meeting them yet,but I can sure name a bunch of em \:o \:D
I subscribe
Some days you get the dog,and some days he gets you.Every dog has his day,and sometimes he has two!

#115536 - 04/15/08 02:54 PM Re: Water Well Capacity [Re: TOM G]
otto Offline

Registered: 11/02/04
Posts: 1074
Loc: texas
Just my 2 cents on the calculation for the gpm on the well. 1 acre, 1 foot deep has 320,000 gallons of water. If you are 5 acres down x 4' depth the formula is 5 x 4 = 20, then 20 x 320,000.
Hope this helps.

#115661 - 04/16/08 06:17 PM Re: Water Well Capacity [Re: otto]
dave in el dorado ca Offline

Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 3261
Loc: el dorado ca
fishinrod, yer discussion of stress fields is fascinating. in my area of the sierra foothills, the predominant structural trend of faulting, paleo fracture, metamorphic foliation and cleavage (settle down JHAP) is northwest/southeast with more than one generation of cross-cutting intrusions (quartz veins). what does any of that mean for finding water, and/or attempting to drive (hyrdro) fractures in good directions? i dont have a clue.

well as i said fishinrod, food for thought. i can only imagine the wife's reaction at the cost to get another rig out here, run 420 foot of steel casing down, perform a maneuver that could either give us water, not give us water, or ruin the well... \:o but to answer yer question, yes on the geology background. igneous petrography, geochemistry, and applied geol. (site investigation/remediation).........and BTW, lookin forward to yer "idiotific" pond plans \:\)

otto, that always amazes me......and i try not think about this anymore.....grasp the fact that 1 acre of water 1-inch deep is about 27,000 gallons, which if yer evap rate is 1-inch a day (which it can be here), and no other water supply, you would need a steady ~18 gpm well running 24/7 to keep up a 1 acre pond.
GSF are people too!

#115663 - 04/16/08 06:24 PM Re: Water Well Capacity [Re: dave in el dorado ca]
Bruce Condello Offline
Field Correspondent


Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 8854
Loc: United States
FishinRod we will definitely help any way we can! Make sure if you start the thread and I don't jump in that you find a way to get my attention, because I am the abolute KING of idiot plans! \:\)
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.

#115774 - 04/17/08 08:32 PM Re: Water Well Capacity [Re: Bruce Condello]
james holt Offline

Registered: 03/30/04
Posts: 1719
Loc: gainesville texas
Lakel I priced a well for just the same reason. The trinity aquafer where I have my pond is about 700 feet deep. Going that deep for that much water with a seven horse pump was going to cost around eighty thousand dollars. I think he said one of the biggest factors in the cost was the size of the steel casing needing to be eight inches. The guy that I had price it for me drills water wells for the gas companies. Needless to say I didn't do it.

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