Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Black Soldier Fly project

David,

High Cellulitic material that is low in nutrients like grass are more difficult to break down naturally. That's why a cow needs 4 stomachs and jews all day. For the same reason black soldier fly will have a hard time breaking down grass clippings.

From my experience, I would not intentionally inundate a colony with grass clippings and/or wood chips. Nature provides us with other creatures that are better equipped for the job... termites and certain ants that secrete highly digestive enzymes.

However, I would love to come up with a way cultivate other insects as easy as it is to raise black soldier flies.

RLO

That's cool, but I think the intention is to feed the maggots to domesticated animals and then to use the animals as a food source for humans. Either way it's great to see maggots utilized like this, and it definitely beats soylent green.

EDIT: I had only read the abstract but I just read your post at NANFA and it seems you where correct about feeding the maggots to humans.

DOUBLE EDIT: I guess I'm also guilty of having the yuck factor, at least to some degree.

Does anyone know how various algae and Duckweed fit into this equation?

Thanks for the welcome GW.

The worry is that the adults may have visited carrion or feces and then come to the culturing bin. I'm not sure if they can transmit bacteria or parasites by touch? For example thier body parts that came in contact with it.

I understand what you mean about how you feel about the fly but butterflies and caterpillars don't have the same feeding habits. I'm not being pessimistic because I would really like to be able to get a clean culture of wild (aka: free) flies especially ones with thier characteristics.

I'll stick to this forum because I'll be posting the answer back on the other forum. It's inconvenient for me going between three forums. I guess other people besides myself are waiting for the answer too...

Thanks, any information you could provide would be helpful.

If the wild flies turn out to be carrying any kind of pathogen then could getting "clean" lab produced flies shipped be an option (I mean just to seed a culture)?

there's also an issue with the flying area a SF needs to mate. If we wanted to keep the flies in a clean environment and have them mate there... would that be possible. I think they need alot of room to fly around in to be able to mate compared to the relatively small space a housefly needs.

Edit: I forgot to mention.... there is also an issue where if other flies came to the culture bin could they pass on any pathogens to the culture even if they were outcompeted later on by the SF? For example houseflies laying eggs on, near or in the SF culture bin?

Our frogs are quite expensive (and sometimes rare). Aside from that no one wants thier entire vivarium or paludarium wiped out from a harmful bacteria or parasite.

Green ghost,

If you frogs are very rare I don't dare to guarantee anything. BSF are an integral port of nature's decomposition process together with so many different species of bacteria and fungi.

One could argue that healthy black soldier fly colony will give you the lowest risk of a pathogenic outbreak.

As you might have read in this post, BSF allow for uber fast break down of organic matter while inhibiting other putrescent factors to dominate the waste pile. If not the decomposing matter would become anaerobic and stinky in a matter of hours. Also they redistribute moisture and keep the decomposting matter from turning thermophillic (115 - 160 degrees F)

So predominantly the BSF provide for all the right ingredients for mesophilic bacteria (50 - 115 F) to dominate.

This does not guarantee that pathonogenic bacteria or protozoa can not be introduced to the system and "survive".

However, BSF have a unique process in which they migrate and clean themselves prior to pupation. They empty their guts completly... getting rid of their entire digestive track and mouth part. It's at this stage that it is believed that they secrete an anti-bacterila agent of some sort prior to pupation.

So, it's fairly accurate to say that the soldier fly pre-pupae are as clean as possible.

Therefore a contraption like our biopod not only keeps conditions optimal for the active black soldier fly in the colony it is also a device for seperating the pre-pupae from the decomposing matter.

If I were you, I would try to set up a colony in a well shaded portion of your yard away from the frogs. I would then harvest only the pre-pupae and preferable keep them in stasis for a few days prior to feeding them to your frogs. keeping them in a small tray filled with wood shavings in a shed would be fine.

If need be, you can always try to disinfect the pre-pupae as this will not kill them.

Also I would be very selective on what I put into the colony. I would put in only food waste from human consumption. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE would i introduce any organic waste that had been in contact with your frogs. Many "frog" pathogens live near your frogs and on their waste and the last thing you want is your colony to become a breading ground for their pathogens.

Without the foresight to what pathogen may or may not be present? I would start small. I hope that these guide lines can give you some sort of "best practise" advice.

Robert

I could identify with that... I guess the only thing left to do is try it and then test the pupae to see how clean they are coming out of the culture bin. Then, see how they could be cleaned further if that proved necessary.

I can't speak for everyone but most keep frogs indoors in closed systems (either vivariums/terrariums or paludariums) - because you had mentioned setting up a colony "in my yard away from my frogs" but I get your point.

Thanks for the informative reply, I will pass your answer on and provide the link to your site. I will also set up a culture as soon as the weather permits.

You mentioned harvesting only the pre-pupae and then keeping them in stasis prior to feeding. What would keeping them in stasis accomplish? Are you trying to say it would make them "cleaner" somehow? One more thing, specifically how could pre-pupae be disinfected?

I've been in such a rush lately I missed these last few posts.

Green Ghost, I initially thought you were concerned with what is fondly referred to as the "yuck factor". You might consider dipping the larvae in mild bleach solution. Of course you would need to research your frog's sensitivity to bleach, but it is used extensively as a sanitizer in food preparation facilities. I've read that bleach will dissipate quickly and leaves no residue.

Here's a link about bleach as a disinfectant:

http://nrc.uchsc.edu/CFOC/PDFVersion/Appendix%20I.pdf

Assuming you don't have any BSFL I would be happy to test this idea in a few weeks, after I get a new colony established. I have little doubt that the larvae will survive a brief submersion. If you wanted to be especially cautious you could use only prepupal larvae since they are inherently "cleaner".

Quite a while ago I took a ride on a Norfolk & Southern steam train. I rode in a restored club car. I asked one of the fellows, who helped restore the car, how waste was handled. Was it still just dropped on the tracks when the train was moving? He said the car had a new system, large holding tanks. They were designed so the the liquid part quickly evaporated & the remaining solids were digested by flies. At the time the explanation seem a bit strange. Now I understand how & why the system worked.

Fascinating thread and Great Work (GW get it!)! I'm wondering if a screened enclosure might be suitable for keeping the entire lifecycle of the BSF? Letting some of the larvae mature into flies, breed and lay eggs right back into the system they came from?

I have posted a link to this thread at CrayfishMates.com . We're discussing various larvae for aquaculture and aquaponic systems feed supplementation.

Haven't got around to looking at the rest of the site yet but looks like it might be right up my alley being as I have designed fishing lures/molds...will get around to checking ya'll out more!

Hi CharlieLittle and welcome. I have a feeling you'll like Pond Boss.

I believe someone (Robert?) has raised BSF in a greenhouse situation. Also there have been tests run where commercial catfish farms included BSFL in their diets with good results. I'm pretty sure I mentioned it somewhere in this thread. Here in the south BSFL are a traditional fishing bait and from my experience fish are highly motivated to eat them.

Thanks for the welcome GW and greenhouse with aquaponics is my plan. Might even consider starting my bait shop back up and gathering all the food waste from our city restaurants. I've seen the larvae of BSF in our city trash truck and in my own worm beds but never knew what they were. Thank you!

That would be an interesting project to follow. Talk about recycling.

Oh and welcome to Pond Boss. I see you've already met our resident Lord of the Flies. (I really, really think that title should be in GW's signature line).

GW, I've been trying to get started (on a small scale) for about 2 weeks and haven't been able to attract any BSF. I have noticed some ants and also, I threw a couple of orange peels into the bucket. Could either of these be keeping the BSF away?
Thanks for your help. I am going to do this!

CharlieLittle, I've thought about restaurants as a source of food scraps but it would probably be hard to get them to sort it properly. Normally you could expect to find plastic, cardboard, broken glass, bones, etc. in restaurant garbage. You may find that vegetarian and health food restaurants will be more likely to sort and save vegetable waste for you. If they sell large amounts of fresh carrot juice they'll generate a good quantity of great BSF food in the form of pulp.

jhap, that title would be appropriate based on my views about society, but it's a little to grandiose for me I think. Any other ideas?

rmedgar, I've also been trying unsuccessfully to start a colony for a few weeks and I think it's due to the time of year. I've got a garbage can that's full and I'm going to set it aside for a while and watch for BSF activity. In the warmer months I could always see some around a can that had gotten a little smelly. When I see them around the garbage can I'll put my starter scraps next to it. I think using something that's fairly stinky will help attract BSF sooner, if you have the space for that. The weather in my area is predicted to go down to almost freezing in a few days. Maybe the BSF "know" that and are waiting for warmer times.

"Lord of the Flies, J.G."

Thanks GW. We are suppose to be around 32 tonight and then hopefully no more cold weather. Are the ants a problems, and also, are the orange peels too acidic? I called the biopod people and am on the waiting list for a small system.
Randy

Randy, I think one of the reasons the BioPods are on stands is to discourage ants. Last year I had my container on saw horses and I sprayed the legs with insecticide whenever I saw ants.

I work for the city in which I live. Waste Water, sanitation, water systems, etc...it's a small city of about 1,000 but a large rural area we run sanitation service to. I personally drove the trash truck for a couple of years till I moved up to Waste Water Operator and see a lot of possibilities for the BSFL. Could possibly get a couple of the food establishments to cooperate, maybe even set up on site bins but we'll have to see how it goes.

Too bad BSF is not a good candidate for sewage sludge as they prefer green wastes but there is plenty of green wastes to be had with a little ingenuity

Maybe a "trade bait for garbage" type of campaign! I wonder just how many people, if they knew there was a place to take recycle food scraps in exchange for bait...

Or just let the word out of a community food scrap bin to save on household garbage being set out for sanitation...

Lots of possibilities!

CL, I'm not aware of any studies using sewage sludge, but are you sure BSFL couldn't break it down? I don't think it's accurate to say that BSFL prefer green wastes. They've already been used to successfully process poultry, swine, and human waste. In the south they've been called "privy flies" because they used to inhabit outhouses. ESR has designed systems that process animal waste at commercial levels and they're working with BSFL-based toilets for humans in Brazil and Viet Nam I believe. Maybe Robert (thebiopod.com) will have some advice for you about this.

Having units set up at restaurants would be fantastic, but unfortunately I think it might be tough to sell the health dept on encouraging any type of fly around them. Maybe someday...

Here's a pdf document on the comparison of earthworms and BSFL on sewage sludge...

Sewage Sludge Document pdf

They define green waste as anything fresh and the manures are mentioned in the article. Sewage sludge has undergone bacterial treatment in either aerobic or anaerobic methods. There seems to be something about it BSF do not like. In over ten years of employment and our city Waste Water facility, I have never noticed BSFL in any of the sludge drying beds or in the plant processes though they are numerous in my on site worm beds where fresh organics are added and in our city sanitation truck during the summer months, undoubtedly from weekly dumping of residential and business dumpsters.

Now I am knowing of the BSFL and bin technology used to keep them and have thought to try some of the processed sludge as it becomes available from our new facility's sludge press. It will be a few months before this new facility produces enough sludge in quantities to activate the press but I will give it a try anyway regardless of the article studies.

Composting worms are well known to process sewage sludge and BSFL waste excrements to a further usable product of worm castings so it seems a multi tier continuous flow design of bin with BSFL on top to handle fresh organics with their wastes able to screen onto the lower worm bin, both green wastes and sewage sludge could be processed at the same location and result in worm castings. The liquid from the top BSFL bin would likely be perfect to maintain the moisture in the lower worm bin.

My brain is reeling from the possibilities

Edited to add...As indicated in the ESR Power Point slideshow, the acceptance of BSFL technology by "spoiled" countries and restaurants like you mention due to health department regs is likely to be a major stumbling block for any wide spread use of this technology. It's too bad some buerocratic red tape would prevent such great things to happen. The very use of BSFL to process fresh human waste solids would negate the need for conventional waste treatment facilities like where I work but then you're looking at too many people losing their jobs and a long accepted system of waste treatment simply going away and you know that ain't gonna happen in the US! It was hard enough to get EPA approval just for a pilot project of using composting worms for biosolid conversion and that had to be approved by a resident engineer! We are truly a spoiled nation but I wouldn't want to live anywhere else so am as spoiled I'm afraid...

Wow, that's interesting CL. I wonder if it's an oversimplification to say that sewer sludge doesn't meet the nutritional requirements of BSFL.

I wanted to let everyone know that I'm going into business selling BioPods. I'm in the process of setting up a website now. The website will be used primarily to blog about my continuing experiences with BSF, but I will also make BioPods available for purchase. I doubt that I'll get rich from offering these units, but I know I feel good about supporting a great company and product. Of course I'll keep updating this thread with new information about BSF as I get it.

I would say that is probably a correct assumption. Much of the nutritional composition of treated sludge is already made into plant-ready nutrients by bacterial processes. Likely very little use to the BSFL.

Had thought you would likely become a rep for the biopods and wish you the best. Can't wait to see the website! Are you going to be involved in the manufacture of or simply as a distributor?

Thanks CL. I'll just be a distributor, but I'm also working on a few ideas that I'll offer to ESR if they work out.