Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose HYBRID STRIPED BASS

George,

Do you have a nearby well or garden hose?

When you say grow-out, do you mean summer grow-out for fall stocking?

I've got lots of pertinent information and experience at 1/4 acre pond grow-out so I can help you quite a bit.

Bruce

Bruce,
My basic question concerns survival feasibility of late winter/early spring stocking of 6-8 inch HSB in ¼ acre pond for transfer to 2 acre pond before mid-summer heat, with no fresh water input or aeration.

What would be your estimate for maximum growth for 6 months aggressive feeding high protein feed before transfer to main pond?

The alternative of course is to stock in main pond while the water is cold enough to slow down the LMB metabolism, and hoping for higher survival rate than previously experienced of less than 20%

Bruce,

I'm also very interested in the answers to George's questions for the same reasons and would like to jump into the discussion with an additional related question:

How large is large enough to have a more than 70% or so probability of escape from LMB predation? I know there are lots of variables that affect the answer, but just your gut feeling in general.

I'm afraid that one would have to keep the HSB in the grower pond through the entire growing season and that would be problematic in a small stagnant 1/4 acre pond in the Texas summers.

One more question guys before I reply...

What method is used to move the SBH out of 1/4 acre pond? Rod and reel, drawdown, seining?

Cast net and PomPoms

George and Meadowlark
Who are your suppliers?

Dave,

I use Todd Overton of Overton Fisheries. So far, he hasn't been able to provide any large sized HSB, but I've been very pleased with what he has provided...including Tilapia.

Dave,
I also have ordered HSB from Todd Overton but he was unable to "grow out" larger sizes because of high demand last fall, but he says he will have 6-8 inch stockers in a couple of weeks.
Do you know of any source for 10-12 inchers reasonable close to the N.E. Texas area?

There is no question that using a grow-out pond for hybrid striped bass works. I've done it over and over again with a great deal of success. Here are some of the pertinent observations that I've made.

I've always ordered fingerlings from Mike Freeze of Keo, Arkansas. They are packaged by the thousand and shipped UPS to me with virtually no mortality. These fish average 1 inch in length and cost about .15/unit. Shipping and packaging costs add about another nickel per head. The pond that I wish to stock them in has been left dewatered for a few months (Nov.-April, usually) and then filled about 72 hours before the fish are introduced. Using this method there are no macrophytes (rooted plants) but plenty of nutrients available for a quick plankton bloom. By my estimate, about 50% of the SBH will be on pellets within two weeks. Most of the others will feed on zooplankton and grow more slowly. Surprisingly, you can feed a fairly good sized pellet even to these smaller fish. They'll hammer at it until it breaks apart. It's good fun to watch.

Your fish will now diverge dramatically in size distribution. After six weeks there will be a range of 1.5-4.5 inches. 80% of the fish will fall right near the center of the bell curve. 10% will fail to thrive or never learn to use the pellets. 10% will be the first to the dinner table and may now begin cannibalizing you smaller fish. This is really no great loss because your runts probably weren't going to be your ten-pounder anyway. After another six weeks with water temps presumably in the mid-eighties, your top 10% may be around 7 inches and will be FAT! This is the time I like to harvest off some of these fish. Depending on how many fish, and how much stress on water quality there is you could easily wait longer, but I've got 2,000 fish in ponds that are .15 acres. My one advantage is I'm pushing about 5 gpm of fresh water through to freshen things up.

Now, to specifically address George's question. I get a little chuckle out of the 100 fish in a 1/4 acre pond deal...400 fish per acre compared to my 15,000 fish per acre. But that's actually a much safer ratio, of course. I'd like to know from the supplier if those 4-8 inch fish were the "runts" or the "super growers" or somewhere in between. It depends on how the grower seperates their fish. Of course you'd rather have the piggies in the top tenth. I'd estimate risk of predation from largemouth as follows:

5 inch wiper--80% over one year in presence of LMB
6 inch wiper--65% over one year in presence of LMB
7 inch wiper--45% over one year in presence of LMB
8 inch wiper--15% over one year in presence of LMB
9 inch wiper--negligible mortality.

No scientific data to back this up. Just knowledge about existing ponds in which I've seen fish such as this stocked in ponds around here.

Striped Bass Hybrids transport from one pond to another best when the water temps are upper 50's to upper 60's. Any cooler and they are at risk of fungal infections. The air temperature should be as cool as possible. Angling with a barbless hook is a great way to do it, in particular if you are able to lift these smaller fish directly out of the water without risk of the fish ingesting the presentation.

Here's a possible way to do it.

When water temps get to 60 F. move the fastest growing fish, provided they are at least 8 inches by angling them with PomPoms. The most agressive and bigger fish will likely bite first. If you catch a little one you can toss him back. Move 30% of the fish. Then when the water temps are 68 move another 30% Now your best fish are moved and you don't have to feel as bad if you have a couple of "morts" when you move the final fish in the summer on a cool morning. At worst, if you lose some of the latter fish they weren't your super growers anyway. If you have a fresh water source like a garden hose from a nearby well you can easily keep these fish alive through summer for a fall stocking. That's usually what I do and I'll bet eastern Nebraska summers get about as warm as those in Texas. We see weeks at a time with daytime temps in the mid-nineties, even into the low 100's.

Hope this helps a little. I'm probably rambling right now.

Thanks Bruce for your much appreciated information - it’s sorta like trying to get a drink of water from a fire hydrant - and speaking of water hoses – the ¼ acre pond is a quarter of a mile from the 2 acre pond and nearest water hose…..!

My goal is to have a diversified population of healthy, catchable LMB and HSB with forage fish composed of bluegill and tilapia.

I am interested in “reasonable” numbers of HSB with annual supplemental stocking. With your experience of survival percentages I have a much better idea of stocking sizes and numbers.

Based on your information, I am inclined to postpone the "grow-out" 1/4 acre pond experiment, and supplement the 2 acre pond with 6-8 inch HSB and risk the 45-50% LMB predation, which is an encouraging survival rate, compared to 20% or less previously experienced with 4-6 inch stockers.

Thanks for all the help – much appreciated.

Bruce,

Great response. I really appreciate it. I'm thinking I might give it a try. I can run a garden hose to my 1/4 pond (several hoses strung together) and help with the stagnation problem...and rent a pump to clean out the pond before stocking. Being able to pick out the top of the line fish for mainline stocking rather than the runts is very appealing to me. I'd never thought of that before. Thanks.

Here are my thoughts. We raise HSB on our farm, and have a good idea of survival rates respective to LMB predation. Here's what size HSB would guarantee good survival rates with respective bass population:

3"-5" HSB with 4"-6" or smaller LMB population
5"-7" HSB with 12" or smaller LMB population
6"-8" HSB with 15" or smaller LMB population

Once HSB are stocked with adequate forage they will grow very fast, very fat, very quickly. Therefore, availablility of forage fish is a factor in determining HSB survival rates with LMB populations. Food size HSB are expensive, and so it is recommended that fish be grown out in a separate pond or in cages before introduction with LMB if it seems likely they will face serious predation.

FYI, we've seen 1+ lb growth on HSB and LMB in 6 months when stocked out with unlimited tilapia food source.

I don't spend much time on the forum, so please email me if you feel my opinion would be valuable.

Todd Overton

I like Todd Overton's numbers. I think they're very consistent with mine--which were based on the assumption of a fairly diverse size structure for LMB populations. The ponds that I've stocked were probably a little heavy on the 10-14 inch fish compared with some of your ponds. I liked the part about 5 inch wipers being safe around 4-6 inch LMB. I'm not sure who would win that battle.

The garden hose, if coming directly from a well should be run through a Wal-Mart sweeper nozzle ($2) and through three or four cinder blocks to break up well gasses and inject a little oxygen. This cool, well-oxygenated water serves as a refuge on a nasty hot day.

Thanks for all the responses on the pros and cons of stocking HSB in ¼ acre forage pond.
Since my small pond does not have access to well water or electricity, I feel that my risk is high for hot weather loss

Large sizes of HSB stockers are difficult to obtain, and past personal experience documents high LMB predation risk.

I will further discuss my options with Todd Overton, but at this time I am strongly inclined to “experiment” with the small “grow out” pond option, as well as 2 acre pond supplemental stocking with as large HSB available.

I will stock tilapia in both ponds as soon as available this spring, as well as supplemental high protein pellets, and go with stocking dates and temps as recommended by Todd.

Thanks to all,
George Glazener

Big Pond,

This has been a terrific thread with some great information provided by all, especially Bruce and Todd.

The thread was about HSB, not a personal evaluation of anyone or their business. I was very disappointed to read your flame of Todd. My experience with him is completely opposite of yours.

I am thankful for his business, his helpful consulting, and his products. I regret that this great thread turned into a negative on someone who I rely on to provide fish and support to my own pond adventures.

You might contact a company called Silver Streak in Danevang, Texas. They raise HSB for the Asian food market. I have no idea what their marketing plan is. Heck, I don't even know where Danevang, Texas is. I met one of their reps at a seminar. He told me they usually grow out to 2 pounds before selling. However, they might sell them smaller. If you guys are interested, E-mail me and I'll hunt around for their contact info.

Dave

Dave - Silverstreak is a commercial HSB producer. I just spoke with Justin yesterday (whom you met in San Marcos awhile back) and asked him about their live-sale practices.

As you mentioned, they're almost exclusively into food-fish production (harvested and iced-down immediately). Having witnessed their very efficient food-fish harvesting operation, I can assure you that they're not overly enthused toward live-harvests - which is a relatively tedious process.

See the attached photos as examples of their volume-oriented harvesting methods. Food Harvest 1 Food Harvest 2 Food Harvest 3

However, they will gingerly live-harvest Live Harvest and sell quality fish only to select lake management companies who 1) have the knowledge and equipment to safely transport HSB for stocking purposes, and 2) who are willing to coordinate their hauling-truck's arrival with their normal harvest schedules. There was no indication at all that they'd sell to retail customers, nor any plans of doing so in the foreseeable future.

Justin did mention the names of several lake management companies with whom they will deal; many of which advertise in Pond Boss. Based on his comments, I would suggest working through a reputable lake management company and/or retail fish-hauler if seeking HSB of this size and quality.

I began this thread Sept. 25, 2004 , to share my one year experiment with stocking and growing HSB in our N.E. Texas 2 acre pond.

At the close of the first year, I estimated that I had less than 20% survival rate of HSB due to LMB predation, and considered this program to be a failure.

I proceeded to determine a supplemental re-stocking plan, utilizing the knowledge and broad experience of PB forum members. I have received numerous responses and am highly appreciative of all the help I have received.

Bruce Condello and Todd Overton have made valuable technical contributions by responses on PB and personal email correspondence. Thanks guys.

I share Norm Kopecky, Meadowlark and others with diversified fishery objectives – not necessarily a trophy lake but with healthy, fishable population of HSB, LMB, and large BG’s, and I thank them for their help.

My conclusion derived from my first year experience is that supplemental stocking of “small” HSB in a pond with mature LMB is not feasible, and that it will be necessary to locate large stockers or “grow” them out in a separate pond.

I have not been able to locate large enough HSB stockers to escape LMB predation, based on Bruce Condello and Todd Overton’s studies, so this option was not available.

Fortunately we have a 10 month old ¼ acre pond that we planned to use as a “forage” pond, that is now a “grow out” HSB pond.

Last week we stocked 150, 4-6 HSB’s in the “grow out” pond.

At the time of transfer the air temperature was 55 degrees, water temp 54, and the water in the container was 56 degrees. On the advice of our supplier we put a bucket of pond water in the container for 15 minutes to stabilize temperatures.

All fish were frisky and apparently made the 3 hour trip from the supplier in excellent condition.

Bruce Condello advised that 4-6 HSB would weigh 20/lb and should be fed .225 lb high protein fish food daily. Separately Todd Overton had advised that 4-6 HSB would weigh 20/lb and should be fed .250 lb high protein fish food daily.
I knew I was on safe ground

The feeding plan is to increase feed as water warms, and feed aggressively until the stockers reach 10 – 12 inch transfer size to 2 acre pond before hot summer temps arrive. I may leave a few in the “grow out” pond to see if they will survive the hot Texas summer.

The grow out plan is strongly endorsed by both Todd and Bruce, based on their previous success and experience.

For others not so fortunate to have a small virgin pond, perhaps the increasing popularity of HSB will provide economic incentives for suppliers to grow and provide large enough HSB stockers to escape LMB predation in mature ponds and lakes.

Excuse this long post, but perhaps it will help others to achieve positive HSB programs.
George Glazener

N.E. Texas 1/4 acre - 2 acre ponds

Very interesting!

I don't have the option of another pond to grow them out, but I do want them. Would HSB grow well in a cage culture, say near an aerator and feeder?

I am finally learning enough to ask the right questions – or maybe learning just enough to be dangerous...

I find that 4 – 6 inch hybrid stripers stocked early in the year are spawned at the same time that 4-6 inch HSB that are stocked in fall and the following early spring.

They are held in overcrowded conditions at the hatchery in holding tanks to control the growth rate – you experts correct me if I am wrong…?

These over-crowded stressful conditions could possibly be the reason I have had poor survival rates on late HSB stockers.

This seems to be a good reason to purchase late HSB from vendors with "grow-out” ponds, which I will do in the future.

George Glazener
N.E.Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds

About how long can we expect HSB to live in our lakes and about how big can we expect them to get?

In the spring of 1999 I built my first pond. It was a 1/10 acre beauty with a maximum depth of 15 feet. I installed an aerator and had a source of fresh water that would go into this new pond, and then exit into an existing 1.5 acre pond on the land I had purchased. The water test for the newly installed well indicated that I had a high salinity. Since I was a huge fan on striped bass hybrids, it seemed a natural to acquire some for my new pond.

I first contacted Mike Freeze of Keo Fish Farms of Keo, Arkansas. He said that he had some carry overs from the previous year that averaged 5-6 inches. I was immediately arranging to get a hauling tank and a pickup. My brother-in-law and I made the 14-hour drive to Keo.

After arriving we were taken to their facility and found that the striped bass hybrids were being held in raceways. The raceways held thousand of fish from the previous year. Our fish were netted about fifty at a time and placed in our tank and put on pure O2. It was explained to us that the fish would be in better condition having been held in raceways because this precluded the need for seining, which I can tell you from experience, beats the living daylights out of fish, especially small ones.

After the long drive home, all of the fish were placed alive into the new pond. We didn't have a single mortality in transport. I was excited.

Although I knew that it would be several weeks before the water temperature got warm enough for feeding, I went out to check on the fish just the same. Can you imagine how disappointed I was when every trip out I would see several of the hybrids lazily finning about, covered with a green fungus, especially on their tails. It made me physically ill to see ten, then twenty, then thirty dead and dying fish. There was even a time that I figured I was losing them all because maybe the rest were just sinking to the bottom.

When the water finally warmed into the fifties I started a hand feeding program. It almost killed me to watch the pellets silently drifting without any fish coming up. I actually felt like quite a failure, but then, just like magic, the water temp got to 54 and the fish lit up like an M-80!

It turns out that after two growing seasons and some meticulous record keeping that I had lost about 10% of the fish. Really not that bad.

In the fall of 1999 I got a call from one of our local biologists who said that he had a present for me. One of the display fish at the State Fair needed a new home. It was an eight-pound hybrid that he felt would not survive in their over-wintering ponds. I was happy to accept his offer. I truly was not very optimistic about this fish learning to eat pellets. Once again, I was wrong. Apparently even adult striped bass hybrids learn from their little buddies about the joys of pellet eating. This individual fish grew almost three pounds per year! Fifteen pounds plus is a possibility for top end growth. I've done it. I could always tell when this fish came to eat. The boil created with each feeding was the size of a manhole cover. When this fish died it was aged at eight years. I really think that striped bass hybrids can live to even nine or ten years under the right circumstances. This may not be the case in Texas, however. The warmer wintertime water probably keeps the clock ticking on a hybrid's lifespan. Also, I believe that if the hybrid is forced to occupy water in the summer that exceeds 82 degrees creates stress on the fish that may lead to a shortened lifespan. Surface temp isn't probably the key, more likely what the temperature of the coolest water in the pond that holds adequate oxygen levels.

I think that the answer to these questions lies in us, the pondmeisters. If we continue to care about issues like this we'll know more than any researchers.

Bruce, this give me hope with your success for pellet training your single large HSB present? I too, will try to convert native yellow perch from my lake in the 4-6" range to pellets shortly in a newly constructed cage for growout table fare for the late fall under Bill C. guidelines for y. perch during a 6 month period.

Rowly

What a great thread! I too am looking at stocking some HSB this year but don't have additional space for growing out the 3-5" fish to a size where they would be less susceptible to the LMB. Was there an answer or does anyone have experience to the question about cage culture and HSB? I have aeration and feed available.

Chip

Chip,

The following link has some information on the cage culture of hybrid striped bass.

http://www.mdsg.umd.edu/Extension/finfish/FF3.html

If they are anything like largemouths I've had great success putting them in large cages at low densities to grow them out over the summer to get them up to size to not become expensive fish food once they are liberated into the pond proper. Aeration near the cage to keep some moving water going through the cage and keeping your cage mesh clean of algae is a major plus.

I haven't messed with hybrids striped bass personally as I don't have a market for them but hope this information helps.