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#6909 - 02/02/04 01:33 PM Lilly Pads
Dean O' Offline
Member

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 11
Loc: North Central Indiana
Hey folks,

Well my pond dirt work should be complete by the end of the week. I am really excited to use all the help you guys have given me (along with the great magazine). Many of the past chats have helped greatly, but I have not seen anything on water lillies. I would rather have lilly pads as opposed to cattails.

Should I dig up some roots from some other pond (will I transfer some unwanted Yucks?), or do you order disease free from some grower? We still have 20" of snow so I'm in no big rush, I'm just lining up all the things I need to do as soon as the weather breaks.

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#6910 - 02/02/04 03:31 PM Re: Lilly Pads
Ed Richter Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 253
Loc: Houston/Brenham
I am not sure that it is a either/or situation, since the water lilly grows in the water and the cattails on the edges.

I am thinking about putting water lillys in also, to provide shade and cover. Local WalMart sells various colors and sizes. I will keep mine in pots, to keep them from spreading.

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#6911 - 02/02/04 03:41 PM Re: Lilly Pads
lee Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 199
Loc: louisiana
is this correct,that water lilly's will not spread if you keep them in a pot?i would like to have them in my lake but was told they will take over a pond.this would be good news if correct.

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#6912 - 02/02/04 06:17 PM Re: Lilly Pads
Greg Grimes Offline
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Registered: 05/03/02
Posts: 3973
Loc: Ball Ground, GA
Lee others know lots more than I on water lillies, but here you go. I have seen them climb out of pots several times. The pondowner then spend conseiderable money paying me to kill them. However I think if you monitor them in the pots this can work, and is much better than planting. Of course the lilly experts will direct you to varities that are not as invasive and can not tolerate as deep of water.
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#6913 - 02/02/04 07:40 PM Re: Lilly Pads
andrew davis Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/18/03
Posts: 185
Loc: Carolina's
Hardy hybrid varieties are fairly reliable on large ponds and lakes, take care to plant them where they are easy to paddle and crop every couple of years, they may spread at the rate of a foot or two a year when they have settled in.

Establishing waterlilies may need protection from the likes of turtles, ducks and large carp trying to graze on their brittle and tasty feeder roots

Below is a piccy of a strong growing 'marliacea carnea' barely coping with pressure from grazing swans and ducks, who find the young foliage and roots of lilies quite an attraction early in the year

http://community.webshots.com/photo/99477855/97297215IttXdj

Waterlilies provide shade from hot sun, shelter for small fish, and a good feed for many critters that contribute to the food chain... Some folk even get them just for their good looks, lol

There arent so many varieties to be considered carefully of as posing an 'invasive' risk, native varieties that drop too much fertile seed, native lotus which can spread 20 feet per year, the nuphars which can swarm into deep water where they start up in deep water (though they are still easy to yank out with a hook on a pole)

When you see a lake smothered by lilies, it took many years to get into that state, there's a fair chance someone chose a poor variety of lily probably free or cheap, tied it to a brick, and threw it in deep water many many years ago.

When a drought comes along, or if the water levels are dropped, its fairly easy to slide a knife along the rhisome, and yank each rhisome out in a few seconds, while they may seem 'a big deal' to get at, if you can paddle among them, they are really quite easy to crop. Unless of course they were put into inaccessible depths...

Planting a well chosen variety in a suitable position is a different kettle of fish, altogether

Regards, andy
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/

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#6914 - 02/03/04 01:40 PM Re: Lilly Pads
Dean O' Offline
Member

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 11
Loc: North Central Indiana
The pond is about 3 1/2 acres with a 10 - 20 foot wide shelf around the entire edge 3-4 feet deep dropping right down to 12 - 15 feet deep. I think having the pads incircle the pond would be great, should I be concerned that they may move into deeper water?

I will start bringing the water up to the shelf in the next couple of weeks, I was thinking of holding it just below the shelf until I get the chance to plant the lillies (?). At what density should I plant them? Should I plant them and then go ahead and fill the pond to the full level (3 -4 feet above the plantings)?

Sounds like some of you have had experience with this....southern tip of lake Michigan, 3 - 4 feet of water, spreads well, nice to look at, will not invade the deeper pockets....what lilly is this?

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#6915 - 02/03/04 05:18 PM Re: Lilly Pads
Mike Robinson Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 111
Loc: Richmond, Illinois
If it has a white blossom and not much of a scent, it is probably the native White Water Lily (Nymphaea tuberosa). If it has a white blossom with a fragrant scent, then it is probably the native Sweet-scented White Water Lily (Nymphaea odorata). If it has a small cup-shaped yellow blossom, then it is probably one of the Nuphar species (Spatterdock), some of which can spread to deep water. Either of the white water lilies would be good choices for your situation.

We plant one tuber every 10 feet along the shoreline in soft bottom areas where you wish to establish lilies. Plant in about 1 to 2 feet of water, and let it spread out.
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#6916 - 02/04/04 08:59 PM Re: Lilly Pads
Norm Kopecky Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 764
Loc: Sioux Falls, SD
It seems to me that water lilies probably provide some of the best plant cover for fish. Is that true? Or are there other plant types that provide better cover? I'm thinking of submergent plants or other emergent plants like bullrushes.

Are water lilies better than nuphar species or does it matter? What about lotus species, or again, does it matter?
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#6917 - 02/04/04 10:39 PM Re: Lilly Pads
Bill Cody Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12804
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
There has been some pretty good discusion under various, previous topics about water lilies. See these topics under these Headings or FORUM title:
1. Identifying Plants, topic- Hybrid Water Lilies. Apr 18, 2003

2. Help. topic- Water lilies. June 16, 2002

3. Balance Of Plants In The Environment. topic- Hybrid lilies that won't spread deep. May 06, 2002

4. Balance Of Plants In The Environment. topic - Starting water lilies in an old garvel pit. Nov 01, 2003.

5. Balance of Plants in the Environment. topic - New pond What basic plants? Jan 31, 2004

My experience with digging and transplanting wild white water lilies from a lake is to, not do it, unless you want them to grow deeper than 6 ft and spread pretty fast. Wild white water lilies grew for me into 6' to 7' feet of water and spread very fast due to: aggressive rhizomes (thick roots), abundant fertile seeds and production of numerous mini, floating tubers that easily broke off the main root and re-grew where ever they washed upon the shoreline. Colored hybrid water lilies do not spread in this fashion and do not spread nearly as fast. They basically only spread by root runners; seeds are not developed or are infertile. Generally the HYBRIDS spread quite slow in comparison to wild white lilies.

Dwarf hybrid domestic lilies will only grow in about 2' to 3' of water and pads (leaves) and flowers are small 2.5"-3" dia. Non-dwarf domestic hybrid lilies grow as deep as 3 to 6 ft deep depending on the species; leaves range from 4 to 9" dia and flowers range form 3"-6" dia. It seems to me that the larger flowered yellows lilies grew into the deeper water 6'. Generally the bigger the flower the deeper water the lily will grow into.

For almost all of us in NW Ohio, who have clay lined ponds, the hybrid water lilies spread very, very slowly due to the hard compacted pond bottom. Most say that the lilies are very pretty, they would like more and larger patches of them and they complain that they are spreading way too slowly. Lilies will spread faster in the soft, mucky, older pond bottoms. Size of spread and aggressiveness is determined primarily by the type or variety of lily. If you have specific wants or needs in a water lily, do your home-work and chose the appropriate species or cultivar. Lots of lily varieties and types are out there. New varieties are introduced or developed each year.

NOTE:: That there are hardy water lilies and tropical water lilies. Hardy water lilies will tolerate ice covered ponds whereas the tropicals are not cold tolerant and will completly die if the water freezes over.

Hardy Hybrid water lilies come in numerous shades of the colors of pink, yellow, red, white, peach (pinkish-yellow) and changable where the lily first opens one shade and then gradually darkens each of the next few days that it is open. Each flower of healthy, hardy, hybrid, lilies will only last 2 to 4 days, but healthy well establised plants put up new flowers for several to numerous weeks throughout the summer.


Edited by Bill Cody (03/10/08 10:36 PM)
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#6918 - 02/05/04 08:10 AM Re: Lilly Pads
Chris Shrader Offline
Member

Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 150
Loc: Southwestern Virginia
Bill, Great Info! I was wondering, you said that these hybrids grow very slowly due to lining we put around are ponds which is made up of mostly clay. What if in the certain areas you wished to have these lilies you spread out an inch or so of topsoil or dirt that you've removed while digging the pond? Would this help them out? Or would it cause some problems?

Chris

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#6919 - 02/05/04 09:24 AM Re: Lilly Pads
Norm Kopecky Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 764
Loc: Sioux Falls, SD
We have the problem of a hard clay bottom. In some areas, we have established water lilies but in most areas, we haven't. Here's what I thought of doing this year.

I can get burlap potato bags easily. I thought of cutting a bag into two pieces and then fill each with dirt. I'd put a tuber into each bag and sow the bag up. I'd then put a bag and tuber where ever I want them.

I'd like some opinions as to whether it would work or not. Would this also work with nuphar species?
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#6920 - 02/05/04 12:45 PM Re: Lilly Pads
ken Offline
Lunker

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 350
Loc: ohio
like bill stated most ponds are clay lined , unless you have and older pond with lot muck , the lilies will not do well. like any perennial they require fertilizer to produce the full potential of flowers and plant. again the only way to achive there best growth is to plant in containers and fertilize in the summer months. they need alot of attention to produce great plants, removing dead flowers and leaves when needed. walmart site has great plants and info on planting and care, as do other sites. in containers you can move them in, out, where you want them , some cover 10 to 15 sq feet. can't wait for spring.....
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#111003 - 03/10/08 10:40 PM Re: Lilly Pads [Re: Chris Shrader]
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
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Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12804
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Yes. Placing a layer of topsoil or loose soil in the area that you want to grow lilies will help them spread and colonize the area faster. I recommend the loose layer of soil be 6"-10" deep. Typically lily roots (rhizomes) are several inches to 6" inches or more below the surface of the pond bottom.


Edited by Bill Cody (03/10/08 10:42 PM)
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#111006 - 03/10/08 11:02 PM Re: Lilly Pads [Re: Dean O']
oldsconv Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 51
Loc: NY
Texas Water Lilies (google it) has many varities and cheap. I have seen some local stores sell ones for $20 each - TWL has them for $5-10 for grown plants. The problem we had, was older pond, but still very clay soil and compacted hard. First year, almost none took. Next year, we put in burlap bags per previous reply with nice rich topsoil and brown "muck" and weighted with rocks (and put a couple slow release miracle grow fertilizer sticks in the bag also. Grew nicely until the migrating geese found them and it was all over. I tried again with wild lilies I got from local lakes (need to take the root/rhizome). These also grew well, but disappeared later in season, presumably from the geese eating them again.

My pond (actually) my uncle's, has the opposite problem of most people - we can't get any plants to grow consistently and it is illegal to shoot the geese by us. I was almost considering cattails (even though they are very invasive) just to get something to grow.

Anyway, good luck and the burlap bag trick worked well to get them started

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#111020 - 03/11/08 09:06 AM Re: Lilly Pads [Re: oldsconv]
Sgt911 Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 265
Loc: Giddings, Texas
What can you spray to kill them? My pond is about 80% and its very hard to fish the unless your're in a boat. I wouldnt mined a few, but jeezzz. My #2 pond back in the woods is 100% covered but its only about 4' deep because of silt build-up


Edited by Sgt911 (03/11/08 12:59 PM)
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#111047 - 03/11/08 12:16 PM Re: Lilly Pads [Re: Sgt911]
Bill Cody Offline
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Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12804
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Shallow ponds tend to be a problem will all sorts of rooted plants if the water is clear and shallow so sunlight reaches the bottom so young plants can sprout and grow. Eliminating the lilies will result in another plant taking their place unless you do something to prevent new regrowth. Best way to prevent regrowth in a shallow pond is deepening the pond or reducing ability of light reaching the bottom through fertilization or pond dyes.

IMO best chemical way to reduce or eliminate lilies including spatterdock (cow lily, Nuphar variegata) is with a glysophate based herbicide such as Rodeo + surfactant or in order of my preference Shore Klear Plus (includes surfactant), Shore Klear or Aqua Star(amine salt of glyphosate needs surfactant), Eagre, Aqua Pro (glyphosate, needs surfactnt), Navigate (2-4D granular). Read and fully understand instructions before buying and using.

You might want to consider just eliminating a portion of the total stand or crop. Once you have them killed back to a lower density or growth area then use annual or semi-annual touch ups to control new invasive growth.


Edited by Bill Cody (03/11/08 12:21 PM)
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