Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose LMB & yellow perch bad mix????

I have a small 1/10th to 1/4 acre pond in Upstate NY. It is 15 feet deep and has a seasonal creek feeding it. I have fathead minnows established and getting ready to introduce the next set of fish into the eco system. I have been told that Yellow Perc and LMB are a bad mix and I have read some of the older threads about this.

My goal for the pond is to have some fish for my two sons to play around with. I am not looking for trophey fish at all. I figured that the yellow perch was a good eating fish that might be fun to have around and the bass for catching.

If not those for a combination what would you recommend with Yellow Perch? I also can get SMB and Walleye, but have all but rulled out Walleye for a pond my size due to how much they eat and how they would not do a good job or reproducing.

Thanks and any help is appreciated.

From my experience, which is pretty limited, I'd say they would be pretty mediocre together. I mean, Perch are pretty good, aggressive predators themselves and having two such species in one very small pond might prove very difficult to manage. I have always heard of Perch being refered to as pond companions of Walleye and/or Smallies. You might want to try a Perch only pond if your concern is only for your sons. You'd probably have to do a good selective harvest as Yellow Perch are great spawners and can easily stunt in a small pond.

Thanks for the info. I am looking to have some diversity in the Pond. I am Ok with having both Y Perch and SMB if they work well together. I am stocking some crayfish in the pond for forage as well and they would work well for SMB. I had thought about walleyes but was told they would eat everything in sight and leave nothing and would not spawn. Ahhh well keep learning every day!!

Cire9 – As you already know, you can find a diversity of opinions about yellow perch in ponds. I don’t want to take anything away from Jimbo’s comments. However, you made one point in your original statement that really caught my attention. “I am not looking for trophey fish at all.” I think that this is a key.

We do successfully use the largemouth bass-yellow perch combination in South Dakota ponds. The yellow perch is our most popular panfish, probably because of winter ice fishing. Thus, many pondowners want yellow perch in their ponds.

When largemouth bass density is relatively high, then they do indeed control yellow perch reproduction and eventual survival into the adult population. High density largemouth bass populations typically have few larger bass. Around my neck of the woods, most bass will be less than 12 inches long. Because they are abundant, they really thin the small yellow perch during their first year of life. As a result, the surviving perch have less competition for food, and grow quickly to larger sizes. We expect to commonly produce 10-12 inch perch in such ponds. I like to keep these ponds simple: largemouth bass, yellow perch, but no other panfish species.

I think the key to your question is that you are not seeking trophy largemouth bass. You sound as if you would be willing to let the bass get to higher density, which is needed to prevent the yellow perch from overpopulating. We have a term for ponds managed under this strategy: panfish option.

So many people on this forum are really interested in larger largemouth bass. That’s the reason that the bluegill is such an important prey species. The bluegills are multiple spawners, and continually produce new hatches of young bluegills through the summer. In contrast, the yellow perch spawn only once in the spring. Thus, they are not as good a prey source as are the bluegills.

I have seen other pondowners and biologists on this website who suggest that largemouth bass be stocked first and allowed to develop a population, prior to stocking a fish such as black crappie. I suspect that similar advice would be a good idea for a largemouth bass-yellow perch pond.

I am leery of the smallmouth bass-yellow perch combination. In the next issue of Pond Boss magazine, I’ll have the second of two articles on the use of smallmouth bass in ponds. Let me include here two statements from that article. “Smallmouth bass are not as efficient predators as largemouth bass, and a pond managed with smallmouth bass and bluegills will invariably result in a stunted bluegill population.” “At this time, traditional fisheries management advice is to NOT stock smallmouth bass with a panfish species such as bluegill, yellow perch, or crappies. Any such attempts should be considered experimental.” As I admit in the article, I am not certain of this advice. However, it certainly is the traditional advice.

What type of pond do you have? Is it a hill pond, with a dam that backs up water? If so, how much submergent plant growth do you get in the pond? Do plants cover 20% or more of the pond surface during midsummer? If so, I would certainly say that a smallmouth bass-yellow perch combination is very risky. I would be afraid that the smallies would not control the reproductive capability of the yellow perch. If you have a steep-sided gravel pit with little plant growth, then the combination might work, although I have seen no studies of such work (I actually would like to do some).

I think your assessment of the walleyes is right on target. Currently, we are trying hard to manage walleyes with yellow perch in two ponds, both of which are near 20 acres in size (much larger than yours). In one pond, we have maintained sufficient walleyes to control the yellow perch reproduction. However, walleye growth has been very slow. The pondowner is pretty disappointed in me, even though I didn’t want to put walleyes in the pond from the start. In the second pond, we stocked much lower densities of walleyes, and their growth is much faster. However, I am really worried about the yellow perch getting out of control from insufficient predation by the walleyes. Time will tell!!

Finally, you are right to expect very little natural reproduction of walleyes in the pond. We see very limited natural reproduction. Restocking with advanced sizes (5-8 inches) of walleyes is necessary to maintain their population in ponds where I have worked.

Hopefully, Bill Cody will also respond to your questions. He is less positive about the largemouth bass-yellow perch combination that I am, and he’s got a LOT of experience with yellow perch.

Hope this helps!!

Dave

Dr. Willis gives good advice. And his advice is based on quite a bit of experience with the fish that he talks about. He doesn't guess when he provides advice. I will briefly discuss some of my experiences with the fishes you are interested in. Sometimes my advice seems to conflict with his but it really doesn't. The ponds I work with are small ponds (mostly less than 3/4 ac) whereas he often but not always works on larger more compex bodies of water. Lots of complex interactive things affect how fish "behave" in ponds.

All the ponds that are near me and have LMB and perch together with low amounts weed growth basically have few if any perch. Perch that are present, are large (10+"). Few if any small perch are present. Especially if bass longer than 14" are present. When few small perch are present not many or no perch replace perch mortality or harvest. It becomes a bass dominated pond.

SMbass work better for smaller weed-free ponds around here with perch. Smallies have smaller mouths and are not able to eat as big as perch as a LMbass of same size. Even then if the SMbass are not harvested and allowed to get numerous and bigger than 14" then low numbers of perch result. Esp if bigger perch are harvested. For a small pond to really succceed with SMbass and perch it also needs quite a bit of cover and a minmow forage. SMbass will quickly eliminate minnows if minimal cover is present. It also helps if the the fish are fed pellets. This relieves some of the predation pressure in the pond.

A 12" to 13" bass is easily eating 3 - 5 lbs of forage fish per year this amounts to 50 to 80 4"-5" perch annually. This is a lot of fish to be losing to each medium sized bass per year. Ten bass are then eating abt. 500 - 800 medium sized perch per year. This is a big loss of the perch numbers in a small 1/4 -1/3 ac pond. And I was only talking about 10 bass!

The benefit to walleyes in your little pond is they won't spawn. Now you have control on how many predators in your pond. Too many take some out, too few add some. Harvest some; add some.

Small ponds like yours around me have the best success with perch, when they only stock perch and minnows and then feed the perch high protein pellets. No predators except the large perch. I am doing some testing now as to how big of a perch a perch will eat. I think that 11" -12" perch if present will eat and help control quite a few 3"-4" perch. In a small pond like yours it is easy to manually thin out (wire trap trapping and worm & small hook fishing) enough smaller perch (2.5" -6") perch that overpopulation is not a problem. Especially if you keep the weeds thinned out in the pond which should not be hard to do in a 1/10 to 1/4 acre.

Perch and hybrid striped bass also have seemed to work good so far in a few ponds around me that have these to species. Again this predator will not spawn for you and you now have good control of how many are in the pond. NOt like LMbass and SMbass who are annually adding more hungry predators to the fish community. They can easily become too abundant just like perch without proper management.

If you think you need larger medium sized fish for the kids to catch and release, I like the idea of using only male or female SM bass in a pond like yours. Choosing only male or female bass will be the problem. As I know it this is risky business and not real reliable. The fish would have to be taken during spawn season which is illegal in many SMbass states. You may be able to buy adult SMbass same sex from Hickling's Hatchery in NY state. single sex smallies will grow, not reproduce and you have control of their numbers. Your small pond will only support a few (6-10) naturally fed predators anyway. 10 bass amounts to 100 bass per acre in your case. This is a real high bass density.

No real definative answers from me but the LMbass perch combination would be my last choice and if I used it I would harvest every bass longer than 10".

My first choice in your situation would be perch only and use pellet raised perch. Perch would easily get to 13" and if not removed first would esily grow to 14". 12" and 13" perch have got to be eating some smaller fish and with some occsssional thinning of 3" to 5" perch and you have a great perch fishery pond. 13" perch are really fun to catch and perch are always willing to bite and also produce a great bite for ice fishing.

Dave thanks for the reply back. You are right on, I am not looking for trophy bass. I am looking for something that will give my sons a good tug on the line and have fun with. The Y perch I will eat As for the pond, I just put it in last fall. It has woods on two sides and drops from surface to a 6 ft deep 4 ft wide ledge around 3 sides then down to 15 feet in the center basin. The 4th side is a rapid slope of about 4 to 1 down to the 15 feet. I have a seasonal creek that feeds it and runs out the other side. It is a dug out pond. It has some soots and grass for side cover and have some free floating plants in the pond thus far. I also dug a channel around one side near the outlet that is about 16 inces deep and 3 ft wide and 20 feet long that I expect some plant growth in for the minnows and fry. I have embedded pallets around in 3 spots sunk in about 14 inches deep that have rock piles over them for cover for the fatheads and they drop off right over the 6 ft deep rim. I have rock structure in the deep areas as well as on some of the shelf area. ( I will try to add a pic here when I get a chance. ) I had considered smallies but I was told they would be tough to maintain in a smaller warm water realtively shallow pond.

All in all it has been fun building up the eco system, but I want to make sure that it is able to be ballanced fairly easily. I plan to let mother nature take care of most of the things it needs to ( after I install my aerator system ). Thanks agian for the advice and I look forward to any future advice or comments on how to best balance things.

Bill thank you as well. As I have seen her ethus far, always good advice. Now to the hard part of trying to decide what to do, what to do lol. i did want diversity and did not want to go to perch only. I wanted to try some diversity in the pond. Hey who knows if I screw it all up maybe I will just put a small musky in there to clean it all out and start again lol.

Thanks for giving me more to think about!!

Here is a point of view from Wisconsin. I am not a pro but I spend a lot of time studying these things. I stocked my pond with LMB, Yellow Perch and Bluegill. I had great growth rates the first summer. I had a bad winterkill the first winter under the advice of a pro, that's why I study for myself now. All that survived was the Yellow Perch giving me essentially a Perch only pond. The problems that followed were an invasion of Bulheads, tons of frogs beyond belief, and tons of other nusiance critters that the perch didn't control because they stay in the deep water. I have restocked 40 bass and they have eliminated a lot of the problems in the last few weeks. All I can tell you is that life would be much easier right now if I had some Bass in the pond last year to keep the critters under control. I have a big mess now. I have caught over 200 Bullheads in the last week that were spawned last sumer. The bass would have eaten them, the Perch didn't. Just something to think about.

Ok now the $50,000 question what rates would you stock the recommended fish at? It is between a 1/10th acre and 1/4 acre pond. Thanks again!!

Cire9 – Wasn’t I right?? Didn’t Bill provide great information?

I am most struck by his comment about small ponds. I have NEVER tried a largemouth bass-yellow perch combination in a pond as small as yours. I’d say we almost always have at least 2-3 acre ponds when we have evaluated this combination. Stocking rates will depend on the combination of fishes you choose.

If you really want perch to eat, I wonder about trying the perch-only stocking, and going with supplemental feeding?? Bill wrote a nice article on this in a magazine called Farm Pond Harvest. I’ll bet he would send you a copy if you gave him your address?

Brian: You didn’t say how big your pond was. However, a corrective stocking of 40 8-12 inch LMB per acre should quickly remedy your perch overpopulation, and they will get back on top of the bullheads eventually. They primarily thin the young (first year) bullheads, so it may take a little time. However, the bullheads are very vulnerable to bass predation.

Most people are surprised that yellow perch are so resistant to winterkill. Their tolerance for low dissolved oxygen in the winter really is only surpassed by northern pike and fathead minnows.

Dave

cire9 - The other thing to consider doing in a small pond like yours is adding only single sex fish or non reproducing fish. Purely put and take system. Add what is needed to maintain balance. Once you introduce pairs of any fish species over abundance can easily occur; as experienced by Brian L.

Cecil and I have used single sex bgill and perch with excellent results in smaller ponds. Cecil female only perch and me only male bgill. Cecil is now working with male only bgill. These fish get big pretty fast primarily due to lack of competition from abundant siblings and very short times away from feeding due to spawning. This way you get diveristy and not the headaches from over-abundance.

My main concern in your case is the stream that feeds your pond. Streams can provide numerous unwanted fish to the fishery. Ultimately bass may be needed to police the immigrant fish.

PS SMbass can easily tolerate your water temps and should not be a concern for your situation. From my experience the jumbo perch will be the first ones to show temp stress.

Bill,

In reference to your first post on this subject, I'm a bit confused. The third pargraph starts off by mentioning that SMB work better with perch in weed-free ponds. Further on in the paragraph, it mentions that a SMB, perch and minnow mix works well in small ponds with lots of cover.

Would it be correct to say that if you only have SMB and perch, you should not have any cover whereas if you have SMB, perch and minnows you should provide cover?

Russ

That is a very interesting question. After reading it over I got a bit confused as well. I do have some cover along the sides and some artificial stuff for the fatheads as well as a shallow patch that the grass and plants are starting to grow back in, but not sure of how much I need. ( By the way I think I am going to try the Y Perch and SMB combo like you mentioned ) But in doing that I know I have to stock a great deal more crayfish in the pond to provide for the SMB.

I will try to clarify my comments about SMbass w/ perch and weeds. P.S. I'm glad to see that people read my comments closely. GOOD. Whenever in doubt ask more questions. I'll see if I can explain this apparent "double talk" or contradiction. .

My first mention of "SMB with perch working better in weed free ponds". I was referring to if a weed free pond had SMB and perch and another pond had LMbass and perch, the better perch population would develop in the pond with the SMB rather than the one w/ LMB. In these two ponds the perch would dissappear first in the pond w/ LMbass. And from my experience of both situations, if the SMB are allowed to get big (greater than 14"- 15"), AND the numbers "high" or numerous AND the largest perch are harvested heavily the all perch in this pond would also soon dissappear (about 6 -8 yrs or sooner). In a weed free pond perch would not do very well in either situation compared to a better managed pond where some weeds beds or a good amount of denst cover are allowed, minnows survive year round with out supplimental stocking and bass are not allowed to get very large or numerous. Perch are strongly daytime active whereas SM & LM basses can funcion fairly well in low light periods. Coupled with bass agressiveness, mouth size, and reproducive nature narrow bodied perch are quite vulnerable to bass predation.

Perch and bass esp when together need selective harvest and proper management of fish and weeds/dense cover for both to be present in fair/good numbers to allow for a harvest of edible fish each year. A good survival of a year class or improper harvest of either species can easily upset the predator-prey balance in a small pond. This is where good or wise management or manager intervention needs to occur.

The second reference and apparent contradiction was in the words - "For a small pond to really succeed w/ SMB and perch, it needs quite a bit of weed cover and minnow forage". The key words here were "to really succeed". The first reference was that a marginal fishery would or could develop. Whereas if you want a truly quality SMB-perch fishery you need weed cover and a GOOD minnow forage base. In the small pond with only SMB and perch,,, growth of both species will be fairly slow and the number of sizable sport fish will be fewer/smaller than in a similar sized pond that has a constant supply of minnows. And for minnows to thrive in a smaller pond, usually a fair amount of weed cover needs to be present. Typical amounts of artificial cover (compared to good weed beds) are often not adequate. Most pond owners do not really comprehend the amount and type of cover needed by small fish and/or forage fish. The species of minnow stocked can also be an important factor here regarding ability to survive, spawn, and grow in the presence of intense predation. Properly managing or maintaining adequate weed growth can be a very challenging task for most pondowners. Attitude about the amounts of acceptable weed growth is also a hurdle concept many cannot grasp.

A given factor is - the growth rate of fish and numbers of larger fish will increase as the food base increases. Increase of food base, at least in northern ponds, can be achieved with abundant forage, artificial feeding or I prefer both methods. Myself, Dr. Willis and others think artifical fertilization is not really a good approach in northern ponds to increase the food base. See "Forget fertilizer for northern ponds" by D. Willis, PB magazine Jan-Feb 2004.

If you accept this concept then the pond with SMB, perch and a strong minnow forage base will produce a much better fishery than one with only SMB and perch. And I think for minnows (fatheads, bluntnose, dace, shiners) to survive year round good weed cover needs to be present. Other wise you are stocking minnows every year trying to maintain abundant food for hungry bass and perch. I have seen mature perch chase minnows that have been added to a pond right up on to shore. Also I have seen perch dive into the bottom weeds for these same newly introduced minnows. Hungry perch by themselves can be quite aggresive. I know of several pond owners that find it very difficult if not impossible to maintain fatheads in smaller ponds with only perch present, medium amounts of " artificial structure" and/or low abundance of weed growthsome Chara beds (small, low growing patches) and/or several lily beds.

For reference,,, my background on this topic is fairly extensive. I have been working with yellow perch in small ponds (less than 3/4 ac) for 19 yrs and more intensively studying them for the last 13 yrs. Last summer I fished in and sampled 15 ponds near me that were initially stocked with yellow perch as the primary panfish. There are now at least 50 ponds within 20 mi of me that now have perch as the primary panfish. Just about every pond, that I sampled, had different "setups" (fishes present, forage species present, supplimental stockings, type and numbers of predators present, frequency or absence of artificial feeding, and age of pond or time since first stocking). I did not sample ponds less than 3 yrs old. Results were published in the article that Dr. Willis mentioned above. So I am not just talking from my readings or from experiences w/ a couple of ponds. I do not claim to be the authority on raising perch but I do have some good learning experiences with raising perch in several different small pond situations.

If you have more questions feel free to ask them. My general rule in learning is -- the only "dumb" question is the one not asked.

Nw that makes more sense to me. When you talk about it LMB vs. SMB in relationsip to each other I get it. Fortunatly I think by the time I am going to start adding the SMB and Perch Fry ( Late SUmmer to Fall ) I should have a fairly strong area where there will be weed cover as well as artificial cover. Right now I am working hard on the Fatheads and the crayfish.

The only problem I am having now with the pond is that I have to go to work during the day and I can't play around on it as much as I would like. But maybe thats good too becuase if I did I think the wife would have something more to say about it!!! lol

As always thanks for the great guidance.

One more recommendation. If you do decide to use bass (LM or SM) wait until the perch have spawned the first time and small perch are present before adding bass. It will give the bass someting else to eat besides minnows. To those I work with around here, I encourage them not to add predators until the small perch are real abundant and too numerous to thin by manual methods. This may be up to 3 to 5 years after first stocking perch. I think the predators should just help mainly in small fish removal, if that is possible.

I have found that the best perch populations occur (at least in small ponds similar to yours) where the pedators just assist in "thinning the perch" and are not soley responsible for the job. This philosopy assumes that jumbo perch (12"-14") are the main goal for the pond. A different approach would be needed if an abundance of big predators are the main goal.
When one relies on predators to do the entire job of thinning the perch, the pond can easily develop too many predators (if they reproduce) and the perch populations suffer due to lack of recruitment of young perch. In these situations where the pond owner helps thin the perch, he is more aware of what sizes and how many small perch are present in the pond. The closer you monitor your fish populations regarding density and sizes the higher the quality of the overall fishery will be.

Eric - One more disadvantage to using LMB with perch. LMbass typically produce more offspring per year than Smbass. This quickly leads to an overabundance of predators with exceptionally large mouths and big appetites who eat lots and lots of slender perch. One real good bass hatch that has good survival of fry (smb or lmb) will raise havoc in your small pond.

Thanks. I can understand using the SMB vs. the LMB based on spawn amount as well. Now you mentioned that you would establish the Y Perch first then the bass the next year? I was planning on getting 2 - 3 inch fry late spring and stocking both, but I am ok with just doing the Y perch first.

As luck would have it I had been looking for a good place to purchase fatheads and come to find out 5 miles down the road from me a person has 4 ponds that he uses for fatheads, game fish and other thinks like crayfish. Also sells for a good price ( $5 / pound on the fathead and they look good as well ). The reason I bring this up he had told me to wait and not purchase the Y perch and go out fishing and bring a few back and they will spawn and set up their own fry. I was thinking not to do that because I wanted the bass and perch to start out at the same time and not have issues with one eating the other too soon. But if I am going to be waiting a year for the bass would you take the approach he said to me? I know in a pond as small as mine, I could get a few ( 15 perch in a day and transplant them in here without any problems ) Let me know what you think.

Bill,

Thanks for the clarification on the weed issue. Since that post I did a search to see what material was available on yellow perch and came across one research paper where the authors mention that weed cover was an essential component of perch habitat.

Eric,

Couple of items. Catching fish from other ponds/lakes and releasing them into your pond is generally frowned upon. The consensus is that you may be introducing something into your pond that you do not want.

Another caveat is the transportation of fish. Check the DEC regs or go the Vegas route and take a gamble. This also applies to stocking a pond. DEC regs require you to have a farm fish pond license to stock. They are free. You can contact your regional DEC office for the form. You can also glean information about the farm fish pond license off the DEC website. I had no problems getting one for BG and I just sent one in for channel cats.

One last point about stocking with hatchery fish. As Bill mentioned in one of his posts, he prefers natural forage AND supplimental feeding. Feed trained hatchery perch may go a long way to increasing the size of your fish faster than just relying on natural forage.

Russ

Russ, Thanks for the advice. I agree and at first didn't think it would be good to introduce fish from another place into the pond. However it would have been from one of his ponds that he has over stocked. As for the gambling of transporting the fish, in NY state I have a permit to transport any amount and any kind of fish as long as it falls within my farm pond stocking that I filled out with the DEC, thus I am not worried about that. Its kind of nice that they allow that here and they don't even charge you for that permit!! ( hey sometimes the government acutally works for you, not often but sometimes )

As for supplimenting the natural food base with feed, I do not plan to do that. I am trying to ballance the pond without introducing orhaving the fish rely on additional feed. I know that this will cause the fish to grow slower or even stunt. Fortunatly my goal is not to have trophy fish, more for my sons to have fun catching some fish and if over time I get some larger ones there then that is cool as well.

Truth be told, I think I have had more fun in my little boat out on the pond, watching the minnows and frogs and all other pond life start to develop. I don't know if catching the fish will be as much fun as developing the structure and seeing the pond come to life. Its truly amazing how the life shows up. I found I have snails and black water beatles and water striders and ... without ever putting any of them in the pond. Thats just soooo cool!!

Ahhh well, thanks again for the advice.

Eric - You can go to the neighbors pond and catch out 15-25 of his larger sizes of perch as he mentioned. I would also stock some of his fingerlings 2"-4" at about the same time. Only thing is be careful not to get too many introduced right at the beginning. Ask your neighbor how many he thinks you should stock and bring his coments back here and lets discuss them. This method will quicly produce several year classes of perch in your pond. If these adults spawn this spring,, keep and eye on the numbers of small perch hatched, one egg mass from a pair of medium sized perch can easily produce 2K to 4K fry. You should see ths springs hatch at about 2" in August. IN your situation you will definately need a wire mesh fish trap to help sample and remove excess fish/minnows. Go out a buy one or two soon. Bait them with bread.

From what you have said earlier, I understand the perch have not spawned in your location yet so far this spring??. True? Seems to me they should have spawned in May. What are your current surface water temps?

Another thing to consider is to just stock minnow and forage fish this spring. Then this fall and or next spring add perch. This way there will be an abundance of forage fish present and perch growth will be exceptional the first year. These larger perch will be able then to help thin a few of the young of year perch in succeding years. This delayed stocking of perch will also allow the initial stocking of adult minnows to grow to larger sizes and the medium sized perch tend not eat them when smaller minnows are available. You will find that the small and medium sized perch (4" -8") will prefer and best be able to catch the 1" to 2" minnows and many 2.5"-3" minnows will survive to spawn next year if adequate cover is present. In your case, try to get some bluntnose minnows. They grow to 4" long. You might have to trap some from local creeks. Ask the neighbor fish raiser for advice or help with this. Good numbers (80-100)of perch in your small pond will be able to eliminate all but the largest fatheads during fall winter and early spring. As the perch get bigger than 8" then more and more of the biggest fatheads will dissappear. You will find the bluntnose will survive better than fatheads and over time bluntnose will compose a larger percentage of the minnow forage base. Once you introduce bass and they reproduce or become common you will find,,, even with the cover you previously described you expect to have, most all minnows will pretty much be history. Bass will prefer minnows to eating perch and thin them out first. Very difficult in a small pond for minnows to thrive with constant bass AND perch predation pressure. At least that is what we have found out that happens in small NW Ohio ponds like yours.

Ref: your question on stocking time for the smbass. I recommend not putting bass in till small perch are common and numerous ones are showing up in minnow traps and the kids are catching lots of 3"-4" perch. This will depend on how youdo the first perch stocking. When 2" to 4" perch are abundant, it is time for predators or a good thinning of small perch.

I think your kids as they grow older, will soon tire of always catching 3"-5" perch and will be wanting to catch bigger fish. Then you will "mind" too many small fish from slow growth and stunting.

Bill as always great info and great advice. The perch have already spawned up here as well. I wasnt planning on putting any in my pond til fall time frame. I have been trying to bulk up on the fathead minnows and crayfish. It goes against what I am sure all of want to do, but I am trying to hold off and build up the eco system and introduce things at the rate they should be introduced. Thus that is why I am asking tons here. And for all the great advice, I do truly appreciate every word I am getting even though some of it sort of puts me in a diff direction than where I started to go into.

I agree with Bill Cody we have 12 ponds and lakes in your area with smalles and perch half of which are kid"s rec. camps they have approx. 60% shallow water and heavy vegetation . Any pond or lake less than 14 feet deep and good water exchange do not support smalles year after year. If poor alk. or tannin water they will not spawn. Just simple facts,that are also listed in D.E.C publications. Our perch population has dropped off 40% in the last 4 Years and the Book Worms are still trying to venture why. Same as the Brookies ,drought condition's my guess.
Good Luck
Scott

Scott,

Any of your PH's dropping too?

Cecil We are at the lowest Ph readings in 10 years. It seems that is why the perch have dropped off but Blue Gills and Bass are holding their own. IT seems every year there is a new set of rules and new problems to deal with. Book's are helpfull to a point but this board should be the Bible for everyone, it is the guy's in the field that see what actually happens. The Pond Guy that sees first hand what happens to a body of water all year long. The other day I was tongue lashed by a group of young student's on all the neww material out. My answer to them was work out in the field awhile or for the summer and actually see what is Pond Management then bring it back to the class room and apply it. I did mention the Pond Boss forum and got an answer that it was elementry.
I told them that if I put them in a room for a day or a week with a handfull of gentlemen off this board. They would get an education that was priceless and a resorce that can not be found anywhere on this planet.

Good luck
Scott

Ps. Sorry had to vent to someone the stuffed racoon over my desk can only take so much