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Aquatic Eco-systems has sent my new product catalog, and makes the following claim. In addition to controlling blue-green algal blooms with aeration, you can use algaecides. Algaecides with sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate are effective at rapidly eliminating blue-green algae. When added to water, these compounds break down into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate and typically last for less than 48 hours. Hydrogen peroxide quickly destroys the thin membrane cell wall of the blue-green algae at low concentrations of .3 to 1.7 ppm. These algaecides can also control both planktonic algae and filamentous algae. They are 100% biodegradable. The brand name is "GreenClean Pro Granular Algaecide". They make it sound like it's pretty amazing stuff. 125 bucks for a 50 pound bag that might be enough to treat about two acre-feet. Here's a link: http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/wq/plants/algae/lakes/control_options.htmlI'm thinking maybe this is similar to the product "AquaKler" that has been discussed before on the forum. The difference being that AquaKler was touting their product as an oxygen producer, while GreeClean is being sold as an algaecide, with additional benefits of producing oxygen as a by-product. I've also noted that the price per unit is WAY down from the AquaKler, perhaps even low enough to be practical for some of you larger pond owners.
Last edited by Bruce Condello; 02/03/08 11:33 AM.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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How can killing the O2 producing plants raise O2 levels for more than a short period of time chemically before it dissipates. Then the dead plants will decay and use O2 in the process and then you may be worse off than when you started. This is worth looking into.
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Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate is also known as sodium percarbonate. It's decomposition is as follows:
H2O2 -> H2O + 1/2 O2
Na2CO3 -> 2Na + CO3
It rapidly decomposes in the presence of water, and the Oxygen is a necessary by-product. So you're right that the oxygen is only a brief burst, but I think AquaKler claimed that they had some sort of sustained release formula. I personally think that the oxygen release is a non-issue. Containing some of the nasty algae blooms that we sometimes see would have a much more beneficial effect just in the stabilization of O2 levels throughout the year. Keep in mind that the best designed aeration system ever may not be able to compete with a massive algae die-off. This could be another tool in the fight to avoid fish kills in ponds.
Evidently the oxidation process blows up the cell wall of the single celled algae without harming animal life.
I suppose the next natural question is how long does the algae stay suppressed. The cost of this product looks practical to me if I only had to apply it four or five times each year.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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I understand the chemistry . If DO is not the problem I spray about 5% of the surface with a weak CU mix from a hand sprayer. That reduces the plankton . I do this by spraying (mist setting) about 5 different areas totaling 5%. That reduces the plankton by about 20 % as the wind moves the water around. It does this without killing to much of the plankton so as to later have a DO problem but yet leaving the food chain intact.
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So in my situation, where I'm having blooms of blue-green algae which are killing some of my fish I'm trying to determine if there's some value to this product. I know others have similar situations where I don't think a mist spraying is going to be quite what they need. I'm trying to stimulate discussion of this particular product from some of the experts.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Why not buy hydrogen peroxide directly? I have read on some of the Koi pond forums that many people will buy the 3% stuff used in medicine cabinets and use it to control algae in their ponds. It is also something they keep as a backup in case they have a O2 crash and need a quick boost. Some of you guys with indoor recirculation systems may keep that in mind. The amount people add seems to really vary. They did say if you add to much it will oxidize the gills of the fish and kill them. There is also some people touting it as a replacement for CL2 products for swimming pools but that won't make the company I work for happy. We use gal jugs of 35% at work which I think cost around $25 to $30 but I can check for sure. This is for lab use so I bet you can find it much cheaper. I was planning on experimenting with this stuff as a spot treatment for FA this summer and reporting the results. You have to be careful with the strong stuff and you don't want it on your skin. It will sting like pins and needles and will turn the skin white. I have seen safety videos at work of a toothpick being stuck in a beaker of 70% H2O2 and the oxidation was so fast it spontaneously burst into flames.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
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DJT, do you know what effect or purpose is served by attaching the sodium carbonate? Is it a stabilizer of some sort? I'm hesitant to believe that bursting into flames is a good thing.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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I don't know the purpose of the sodium carbonate but I guess it makes the stuff more safe to handle. If that is the case then you are buying a lot of pounds of "filler" along with what you really need(H2O2). I don't want to scare you off the stuff too quick with the flames thing. That was the 70% stuff. 35% won't do this I have tried.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
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#8 in the FAQ deals with this a little. The sodium carbonate would raise your PH. Aquatic Eco system must give you a volume discount. My catalog lists it at $138 per bag. Also they will hit you with the HAZMAT shipping fee. (not cheap) http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#19
Last edited by DJT; 02/03/08 05:54 PM.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
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Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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I find it hard to believe that the H2O2 will target the FA in the pond. Peroxide is a strong oxidant, and will react with any organics in the water. At sufficient dosage, I can see it reacting with FA to cause a rupture of the cell walls and autolyzing, but this would require enough to react first with easily oxidized organics before being able to react with more complex organics.
I agree with the approach Eric is taking by using a more targeted algaecide. If you want to try H2O2, than the 35% solution (perone by trade name) would be a more economical source of peroxide. I assume the carbonate is to stabilize the H2O2 in a solid form to make handling easier and safer. This also adds to caost and would result in a temporary elevation of pH.
In my opinion, this looks like Fu Fu dust!
Mike
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Mike, I'm not looking to control FA, since I don't have any, but would like to knock back the bluegreen algae a few times a year, just to stay ahead of it.
What would you use?
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Mike's right. The stuff will react with organics (detritus on the bottom, etc) so it will be tough to accurately calculate the dosage needed when you consider you have to compensate for a lot of the product being used with the organics. Of course, it's tough to predict an unknown variable.
I've talked with several applicators that have used this stuff with success on floating algae mats. It was applied directly to the mats so perhaps the contact with other organics was minimized. I have been told that it works really fast.
As you continue to research this product, do know that many folks opt to use a less expensive formulation called Phycomycin. I haven't used any of the peroxide-based "algaecides" so I can't be of more help.
It's hard to beat the chelated coppers for what you are wanting to do: Cutrine Plus, Clearigate, etc.
----------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge" Albert Einstein
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I still think that use of H2O2 seems like the wrong approach for biological control in a pond. Peroxide is a non-discriminant oxidizer. That means that it will 1st react with easily oxidized organics (those with high COD coefficients) before reacting with more complex organics such as algae. Most algaecides work through enzymatic processes that cause the cell wall to auto-lyse or by interfering with the cell mytocondria. They act as toxins. Even hypochlorite acts more like a cell toxin than simply to oxidize the cell wall. To use bleach or other oxidants, requires that break point oxidation occurs prior to having sufficient oxidant left to react with less readily oxidized material.
I would be interested in hearing how this product works and if there is a successful reference.
Mike
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I'm going to contact Aquatic Ecosystems on Monday or Tuesday to ask them for evidence, clinical trials, or actual people that I can talk to who have used this product successfully.
So can I use a copper product to kill bluegreen algae? For some crazy reason I was under the impression that it was used strictly for macrophytes.
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I've talked with several applicators that have used this stuff with success on floating algae mats. It was applied directly to the mats so perhaps the contact with other organics was minimized. I have been told that it works really fast. This is the type of application I am planning to try. I am hopeing to find a cheap supplier then experiment with application rates. I see 2 advantages to this over Copper. First it adds oxygen to counteract what the decaying algae will take away. #2 It does not leave a heavy metal contaminant to settle into the mud that can build up over the years.
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By the time the dead plankton decays the added O2 will be gone as it is a short term addition. FA results from excess nutrients plus light getting to the pond bottom where it begins growth. Remove one of those 2 and the problem is reduced. While treating the floating mats helps the real key is to stop FA where it grows (on the bottom). Will this product accomplish that ? So far the only benefit I see from it is short term emergency O2 addition. If you are not there to monitor the need first arising and to regulate the result and the subsequent increased need for even more O2 when the plankton decays I question its viability for many pond owners. It is hard to fool mother nature and when you do you often are setting up the basis for an even bigger problem. Running ponds in a hypereutrophic condition with high fish #s is a very difficult thing to achieve for very long. Mother nature has a way of extracting revenge. It takes a much better pond manager/scientist than me to do it well for very long. Good luck and post the results . Like the scouts say , be prepared. Plan ahead for how you will deal with all the possible outcomes so you counteract any negative ones in a timely manner.
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Those are very good points Ewest. In my case I was planning to use it in conjunction with aquashade. Thinking the dye will keep the FA down in the deep water and maybe the H2O2 could work around the banks. I am not looking for zero algae just moderate levels. The first reason I had to want to try it was economic. I am hoping find a cheaper supplier for work then I could buy it from them at cost. IF it does work for shallow spot treatment than I see no advantage to using copper products instead of this especially if it is cheaper. This pond is fed by cropland and gets lots of oak leaves in it so nutrients will probably always be there. This could end up a dismal failure and if so I will be the first to tell people not to waste their time with it. I am looking for an alternative to my current Repeated Arduous Kelp Extraction method or R.A.K.E. for short.
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Bruce this product does has its place we have used it for about three years. 1. advantage less chance for direct copper toxicity. 2. My major disadvantage is cost, I do not have label in front of me, but figured one time it would cost me about 10 times for the same control of the algae. I use it in ponds that are tiny or have trout. It works pretty well on FA, never tried it on phytoplankton. It is not snake oil like a few prodcuts you see for sale but too expensive to make it profitable for me in most cases. If we have any ornamental pond folks reading this, this would be product of choice over copper for algae killer. BTW Shaun Banks can get you some as well.
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DJT I am trying to understand the product and its possibilities. I hope it works. If you have acid water (low alkalinity) and are trying to treat shallow near shore FA try some hydrated lime on a small area. It raises the short term ph enough to kill FA mats and near the shore accumulations and has no long term negatives. You can only treat small areas (not a whole pond method) as it can kill fish also. See this link. http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=3512&Number=35414#Post35414
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Bruce,
The copper based formulations are used often to control phytoplankton. We just here of them being used for FA more often. I have slammed quite a few algal blooms with the copper based formulations.
The peroxide based formulations are much more expensive as Greg noted. They are an alternative for folks not wanting to deal with other types of algaecides.
----------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge" Albert Einstein
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...I have slammed quite a few algal blooms with the copper based formulations. That's the kind of think I'm looking for. That's likely to be what I'll try. Sorry if this is a redundant question, but are we looking at any problems with fish consumption if I used copper based products? Because ultimately that's why I was looking at the peroxide types because they were touted as something that would break down entirely into so-called "natural" by-products.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Bruce I would not do this for just anyone. Take a look at Hydrothol as well .You guys note the chart ( will add as soon as photobucket is back up). I will add it to the archives . SRAC Aquatic Weed Management Herbicides http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/381285-SRAC...d6727b41b2c7b5dSodium carbonate peroxyhydrate (GreenClean®, PAK 27®, Phycomycin®) Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate is a granular contact algaecide with hydrogen peroxide as the active agent. It selectively controls blue-green algae at lower application rates and controls many types of algae at higher rates. It is not effective on the macroalgaes, Chara or Nitella, or on any higher plants. The granules should be broadcast across the surface or dis- persed below the surface to make direct contact with the maximum amount of algae. Solutions or foams can be prepared from the granules (see the label); some liquid formulations also are available. Treat early when algal growth first appears. Sunlight and warm water temperatures enhance its efficacy. Bubbling, bleaching and/or discoloration of the algae should be evident soon after application.
Last edited by ewest; 02/05/08 05:21 PM.
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That seems to directly address my question quite nicely. I still can't see what you're referring to in regards to hydrothol.
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From the link.
Hydrothol® controls algae (filamentous and stoneworts) and many submersed weeds. Aquathol ® controls many submersed weeds but is not effective for algae control. Both products are contact herbicides and may be used for spot or partial pond treatments.
From the chart under col. Endothall - G for good control of Planktonic algae.
Last edited by ewest; 02/05/08 08:50 PM.
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