Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site Building a Pier

I am in the beginning stages of building a pier on my 2 acre pond. We have recently drained enough water from the pond so that we will be able to dig holes and set our main posts in concrete. Once the concrete settles and the pond refills we will have a strong base for our pier that should remain there for years. My question is... What should we use as "main posts"? We have thought about "treated" 4x6's, "cresote treated" railroad ties, and telephone poles. Does anyone have any suggestions/ideas about what we should use? We wany something that will be able to withstand being under water. Also if anyone know of any links that might have "blueprints" for building piers it would be greatly appreciated. We were thinking about something octogon in shape and about 20x20 in size... Thanks, Ragu

Ragu (I hope someday I know you well enough to call you Carmine):

Maybe 3-6 months ago there were some BIG discussions on pier/dock construction, with emphasis on post material selection. I will try to summarize what I can remember and hopefully someone will know where to find the thread(s). I also recommend you search for them or try reviewing titles to look for likely threads.

Some people really worry about putting any kind of treated posts in their pond, figuring that whatever (creosote, etc.) is use to kill insects and agents of decay would be bad for fish and fish-eating humans. One non-wood alternative which was mentioned was plastic pipe (PVC?) filled with rebar and concrete. There was a fair amount of detail on different kinds of posts and at least a couple of diagrams showing dock construction plans with a discussion on what sizes of lumber would cover different length spans. We have also had discussions on floating docks of various materials (commercially available and do-it-yourself).

Personally, for my small dock I used Hedgeapple (Osage Orange, aka Bois d'Arc) posts for in the water. This wood, untreated, will outlast any treated softwood in wet conditions (I have 100 year old Hedge fence posts on my farm with the below-ground portions still solid). Downside is it's harder than hell, doesn't grow everywhere, and tends toward being crooked (requiring a large selection of posts in order to find ones straight enough for a dock and limiting the length of straight sections available for such use).

Ditto Theo's comments. Here is one link. There is one post that goes through the entire plan and another that uses metal posts. Try a search. ewest

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001467

I would never allow fish in my pond that could't stand a little pressure treated pine or oak in it.

I built a 3.5 acre pond in 1984. Used broken telephone poles(they were cheaper) to support a U-shaped dock to park my 15ft. boat in. I left the poles at their various heights until the following year when I had a roof built on it.They worked great,and I don't believe the fish or swimmers have suffered a bit. Dock is solid as a rock.

I used heavy gauge used drill stem pipe
set in concrete. Don't know its longevity
in water though. I agree about the enduring
quaility of Bois d' Arc wood. I've seen fence
posts made from the stuff that must be 60 or 70 years old.

Ragu,
Like Theo I used Hedge.
I also used hedge for everything but the decking, link should take you to a picture.
dock

I used to build custom knives and tried bois d'arc several times for the handles. Beautiful wood that only a rasp would cut. Only one problem. It had the tendency to split several years later. I'm not sure just how that would effect a pier because of the strength.

Kent, those are some heavy logs you used!

DD, I suspect the biggest problem from splitting would be loss of (short) nails holding decking, etc on rather than a serious structural failure. My experience with hedge posts agrees with a noticeable incidence of splits, but they do not seem to get long or deep enough to be a major structural problem. I just have to replace some fence staples (2" at their longest). I have not had long (5" and longer) case hardened nails used for attaching 2"x6" cross pieces come out.

I agree, Theo. I think that stuff could split and still be plenty strong for a pier. It made my knives almost useless. They no longer had a smooth handle.

One thing, I would damn sure put the decking on before that stuff dried and hardend some more.

I decided to build my 16'x4' dock from a combination of steel, wood, and composite. The posts were built from 3"x1"wall steel pipe with a 1'x1'x 3/4" steel plate welded to the bottom at a slight angle to match the slope. I then welded a 30"x 1" Pin (salvaged anchor bolts for concrete barrier) to the bottom. The main frame was constructed of 4x4x1/4" angle iron welded. I drilled two holes approx. 12' out 3" and welded 3"id x 3 1/2" pipes over the holes. The 3"x3 1/2" short pipes had 2 1" holes in each which I welded 7/8" nuts to. The posts slipped through the frame and short pipes and bolts could be tightened to clamp the post. This design allows the dock to be adjusted if needed. The bank side had concrete piers dug 30" deep. I used concrete tubes for this. The entire frame was coated with organic zinc, epoxy, followed by a coat of urethane. Joists were laid across the angles, I used 4x4s left over from a fence I had to redo because the wife wanted vinyl (that's another story). Over the 4x4's I laid the composite decking. It stays cool, has good traction when wet, doesn't rot and requires no sealer. I do bridge construction so all the steel and paint was free but I still would have not done it any other way. Check out the picture Dock photo

I rarely know enough about pond topics to contribute anything useful. So I read and learn. The accumulated knowledge available in this forum is most remarkable.
I spent a military career in public health and near the end had responsibility for the Army's food analysis and diagnostic laboratory. I would like to add something about the toxicity of pressure treated wood in building piers. I know we all have to die of something, but I don't want it to be cancer. Most of us are old enough to have seen someone we knew well auger in with cancer. It's almost always pretty savage near the end. I believe that much of that cancer is avoidable. And it is almost impossible to know the precise effects of various carcinogens on humans. Until they allow us to do toxicologic testing on convicts and Jihadists, human studies are retrospective or speculative based on work in other species. There can be huge differences between much more closely related species. For example, the lethal dose for a known carcinogen, aflatoxin, is more than 30 times higher for a mouse than it is for a rabbit. My point is that we should all avoid all known carcinogens, at least when it is not too hard to do so.
I found lots of peer-reviewed articles on the dangers of the leached components of pressure treated wood. Pretty bad stuff. Lots of known carcinogens and primary toxins. Here is a brief abstract:

The effects of using wood treated with chromated copper arsenate in shallow-water environments: A review
Weis, JS; Weis, P
Estuaries.

Studies published over the past several years have documented that copper, chromium, and arsenic leach from pressure-treated wood placed in estuaries, and that these toxic metals accumulate in nearby sediments and biota. We have found bioaccumulation and deleterious effects in the epibiotic ("fouling") community, particularly in poorly flushed areas and on new wood. The epibiota showed reduced species richness, diversity, and biomass. Barnacles and encrusting bryozoa that settled on new treated wood grew more slowly than those that settled on untreated wood or plastic substrate. In laboratory studies, trophic transfer of the contaminants from epibiota to their consumers has also been demonstrated. We have also found accumulation of the treatment metals in the fine-grained fraction of nearby sediments and in the benthic infauna. Infauna also had reduced species richness and diversity in sediments adjacent to treated-wood structures. While standard toxicity tests with amphipods did not demonstrate acute toxicity of these sandy sediments, sublethal effects on development were seen in juvenile mysids. Overall, the extent and severity of effects of pressure-treated wood in an estuary depends on the amount and age of the wood and the degree of dilution by water movements.

Anyway, that my two bits. Tom Pool

Overall, the extent and severity of effects of pressure-treated wood in an estuary depends on the amount and age of the wood and the degree of dilution by water movements.

Canepole, I can appreciate your caution, and I think the last sentence says it all. Amount, age, and dilution.(400,000gal., 1 million gal.) People use this wood to border their gardens, it is handled every day by people; if it is that dangerous, I wonder why it is not banned. The fact that barnacles dont grow as rapidly while attached to it as to non treated wood, is haardly enough to scare most people. If the same tests were run on the various metals, plastics,concrete mentioned; could not the same conclusions possibly be drawn? Just a thought. I think I will still put in 2 4x6 posts for a pier and not be concerned. But,again, I see your concern.

Canepole and Burger, CCA lumber is a thing of the past. I'm pretty sure this has been brought up before. See New Rules for Pressure Treated Wood . The CCA treated lumber Burger is describing is hardly available at your local lumber yards. It may be of more concern to make sure proper fastener materials are utilized so that people don't fall through the pier 3 years after it is built due to corrosion failure of the fasteners. I'd be more interested in tests showing the hazards of lumber that is actually being sold to the public. You should be able to pick up the MSDS sheets at you local yard. By law these are to be readily available/posted.

Burger, Ryan, those are good points, and the website is informative. There won't be CCA around much longer, so my point is moot. I would point out that there are lots of things known to be bad for health that are not banned, and I don't want them banned. Don't protect me from my pleasures. I don't smoke but I don't want it banned, and taking nitrited meats up to cooking temperatures is probably not very smart either. But I eat bacon till Hell won't have it, and I don't want it banned. But I will always avoid any exposure to potential toxins if there are safer alternatives that don't jeopardize my pleasure centers. I'm better educated than I was this time yesterday, and I thank you both. In 6 hours I'm going to start a flight from Guam to Oklahoma to look in on the construction of my new pond. I feel like handing out cigars. Best regards, Tom

Bon voyage, canepole. I think you will be enjoying the weather when you get back to OK.

You guys just about have me talked out of using treated lumber.

I'm going to build a floating dock about 8' wide and 30' long. It will probably be made from 2x12, 2x6, and 1x6 lumber. What's the best commonly found lumber to use? Cedar? Redwood? How about the composite stuff used to build decks?

I am hoping to find somewhat affordable stainless steel fasteners. I'm afraid galvanized nails/screws/bolts would rust through after 5-6 years.

Thoughts?

Bobad, Here's my 2 cents.

Redwood is very nice, doesn't warp or split, has a nice dark red color and is very resistant to rotting. It is VERY expensive. I tried to find a price for you but the company I used to get it from hasn't stocked it for 10 years. I try to avoid non-stock items when possible.

Cedar is nice, weathers well, needs sealer occasionally, readily available, looks nice but isn't very strong. Usually cedar decks are framed with treated pine and covered with cedar. If the frame was treated pine with cedar 5/4x6 decking, the joists would need to be 12"o/c instead of 16" o/c for most composits and treated pine 5/4" decking.

As for composit, it is looks nice, you can choose from a limited amount of colors, needs no sealer. Not as slippery as other materials when wet. Shouldn't crack, warp or split. It is usually framed with treated pine and covered with the composit decking. The exposed exterior joists can be covered with vinyl fascia cover. Pilot holes have to be predrilled with a countersink type bit before screwing it down. It is expensive.

approximate prices for decking
Redwood: wouldn't consider
Composit: $4.50 sq. ft.
Cedar: $1.95 sq. ft. + sealer + extra framing
Treated Pine: $1.35 sq. ft. + sealer after 1 year

There are several types of fasteners made of various materials/coatings that are approved for use with the new treated pine. If you go this route just make sure you buy the right type and you should be fine.

If you use wood, one of the biggest mistakes I often see is that the lumber is not crowned during the install. Look at the end of the decking board. When it is laid ready to be attached the rings should look like the sun is rising. The wood will shrink and the board will cup down resulting in a smoother deck/dock and water will run off more readily. Joist should also be crowned. Look down the narrow edge. The board will arch up or down slightly. Put all of the crowns up. Just some tips if you didn't already know.

Very good and precise information, Ryan.

Thanks

....and my 2 cents
I have done alot of landlubber deck work, and galvanized flooring fasterners are off my list. The only galvanized hardware I will use is the heavy duty bolt/lags for the framing. When it comes to a fastener that will be exposed to water or precip. on a horizontal surface (the deck surface, where it doesn't readily shed like a vertical surface), stainless is the game. Yep, stainless is considerably more expensive, but it NEVER compromises the finish. The only drawback to stainless is that the metal is somewhat softer than gavlvanized and electro-finished fasteners, so the heads can strip more readily if you are not used to driving them. The answer to that dilemna is square drive heads, not phillips.
I plan on building a pier this coming year while our project is being bottomscaped and the dam is constructed. I am a big fan of treated framing and intend to do the same for the pond. Ryan is right, the new age "green-treat" is a considerably more eco-friendly product. I foresee composite for the decking. Why? a) the better grades are virtually rot-proof b) the additional cost is not outrageous for a smaller type pier project c) each pc is identically straight; no twist, warp, cup, knots or swale. The only jury that is still out is a serious consideration to use the under-deck (hidden) galvanized fastener systems. If I did this, I WOULD go with galvanized screws since finish failure would be well hidden.

Anyone used this?
http://www.trex.com/products/whatistrex.asp
Looked good at Home Depot

http://www.trex.com/Universal/showcase/docks/default.asp

My deck 14X25 is covered with Trex and cedar. (about 50/50)Used Trex where the swimming ladder and diving board is and cedar on the entry way. I was too busy (and unskilled) to do this my self so opted for the $7800.00 to have it done while the pond was filling in spring of 2003.The starter rows were all stainless square drive (almost like torx)and look great. The remainder were air gunned in and look terrible. I looked up application methods on the Trex site and states that you can air drive the nails "DONT" The material swells up around the nail hole and has a torn look to it.Shortly after I had this done I was at a HomeDepot grand opening and got talking to the people that make the Depot version of Trex. I thought it looked a lot better as had some shape to it instead of the rounded edges. We encounter many trex decks that are in shaded back yards as part of our lawn care operation that have been torn out after 10-15 years as they DO rot away. Most seem to be in heavy shaded areas and are irrigated.PS I used treated 6x8's and if to do over would pour concrete in smooth bore plastic(18 or 24 inch) tile,I believe they make a form for these applications also (sonatube?)or something close. Have observed several of these in Ohio of late and they look great.

Forevergreen,
very interesting regarding the Trex decking in shaded and humid locations....so I understand, the point you make is that the older Trex product is far from bullet-proof in constant humid climates? Also, expand a little on the plastic sono-tube thing. I have used the cardboard tubes numerous times on landlubber projects...I realize that these would only be useful as a form, then deteriorate. Do you mean to pour a concrete pier (tube) to above the water line? I envision a substantial post-hole in the bottom of the pond with a 16' long treated 6 x 6 in the middle....basically a long fence pole that projects above the water surface.

The older Trex appears to be the same as the material on my 2003deck. Time will tell if it will hold up. I wanted something nonwood with some traction and no splintering for the swimmers.It also fads fast and have stained and sealed it twice.I believe Trex stated that it wont take stain but it does. I wanted to match the cedar.I wouldnt consider the climate of the decks Ive seen removed as a constant humid condition as the falls and winters are usually very dry. The spring and summer conditions with the irrigation is humid however. Trex also seems to get mold on it as many surfaces do in this situation. Unless Trex has come out with some new designs in the last 2 years I think some of the other composite products may be worth looking at. I also looked into their railing design and found it very weak and unappealing. Their website looked great however. The piers are installed in dry ponds and are basically a heavy smooth bore (Hancor) field tile or ditch tile that are supported with a wooden framework and poured to above the future water line. Most of these seem to get steel beam framework to attach the decking to.The water in never in contact with the concrete.I also see several square 18 inch bare concrete piers that Im sure will last a long time also. A lot of the ponds around here are constructed by tile and excavation companies that have this type of material for other purposes. Seems like a good way to form and use up short pieces of culvert tile at the same time. It may be overkill as far as a form but keeping the water away may have some merit.

I'd like to do my pier without draining water. Not sure about material and or floating vs. fixed design. Sounds like we could use an article in Pond Boss with a few ideas on plans.
Personally I'm looking for simple to launch a small row boat or kayak for those folk who don't want wet feet doing it.

Just want a KISS (Deep It Simple Stupid)design.

Another product I used to sell and install that hasn't been discussed is vinyl. The decks I constructed used a treated frame (CCA at that time). The decking was attached with a hidden fastener system that involved aluminum "tracks" fastened to the joists with stainless screws. A dead blow hammer is used to smack the deck boards in place, not ridgedly attached to facilitate expansion and contraction. The railing was vinyl and reinforced with galvanized steel channel. All exposed joists are wrapped in vinyl fascia cover. The first one I built was ten years ago and it looks as good today as it did when it was built and the lady who owns it loves it. It was expensive, but of the highest quality in my book.

I'm with Tuzz...kinda simple. Another fear is making a permanent structure to weather the forces of shifting ice. I don't care to be "putting and taking out" the pier anually. Based on soil samples, I anticipate a very thick layer of clay at the pond bottom. I continue to foresee a 12" dia x 3 - 4 foot deep hole in the bottom of the pond, insert a treated 6 x 6 x 16'(or whatever length gets it well above the waterline), and fill the hole with concrete. Set these posts in pairs for as long as is required to frame a desired pier length. Has anybody followed this basic structure formula? Input?

Bretski,
I put cedar 6x6x16' long posts on top of 24" round concrete footing (using sonna tube) and used one extra large stainless steel timber bolt for each horizontal beam to post attachment. I like the design - its only a couple years old - I hope it will last for at least 20 years. Joists and rafters are treated - everything else is cedar. See attached pictures.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v216/gainesjs/

Ryan,

Thanks for the info!. I appreciate your work to dig up prices and give detailed explanations.

The price of that lumber makes me want to find "alternative" materials. Maybe I can find some big cypress trees and saw my own or something.

You mentioned crowning the deck boards. I know cupping is a problem, even if you keep the crown up, sometimes the boards shrink and you still end up with a bit of a cup. One technique to help this is to use a screw on each side of the board, and none in the center. That way when it rains, the center of the board can crown up a little and shed water.

Another mistake I have seen is jamming the deck boards too close or even touching. They need at least 1/8" spacing, and 3/16" is even better for boards that get wet often.

Thanks again!

In the case of my dock, I did not see a need for a "footer" in the traditional sense, needed under the posts under water. Rather a pad, to keep the post from sinking into the mud would suffice. I do have a solid clay bottom. I was at a boat show in Columbus, Ohio an saw some maybe 1/8" wall 3" diameter pipe posts that spawned the idea for what I used. The posts this dock installer used had a screw type bottom that they said they screwed in about a foot before attaching their deck system. They said that a "footing" was not necessary below water/freezing level. This I would assume is that if the dock was high enough above full water level that ice would not force the dock up. I noticed that I gave the incorrect dimensions of my posts in my previous post. I used 3" dia. x 1/4" wall pipe with a 1'x1' steel plate welded to the bottom with an 18" steel pin welded to the plate. The pin was driven in until the plate hit bottom. My pond was full when I installed my dock and I envy those who are adding docks before their ponds fill.

Jeff,
definitely wanna see your pix, but Photobucket is requesting login info...? What did you use to drill the 24" holes? How deep? What is the subsoil composition?
thx

Brettski,
My subsoil was heavy clay - I probably did not need such a large concrete base, but I have a heavy dock and we have had it loaded during parties. My neighbor was a Bobcat dealer so I got free use of a new toy with all attachments. The 24" auger attachment was tricky to use on the incline - I only drilled about 18" deep.
I will try to attach 3 pictures to this post,..

(img)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/gainesjs/start_boat_dock.jpg(/img)
(img)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/gainesjs/dock_almost_finished.jpg(/img)
(img)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/gainesjs/Finally_Full.jpg(/img)

If the link does not work I think you can cut and paste the address but do not use (img) in the address.

Jeff, nice looking Dock! and pond!

Jeff,
V nice. Inspiring! Love the metal roof thing! This is the kinda stuff that I need to see before the water starts backing up. To date, I had not considered a roof. The wife and I endeavor to stay outta the sun and you have just provided another option (and more work, thank you). The dense woods surrounding our project keeps the humidity high, so I am already nixing an asphalt shingle roof on the future home for fear of uncontrollable moss growth; the zinc strips won't keep up, I fear. A metal roof is almost certain. Now, with your nudge of inspiration, I can foresee a matching roof and roof-line over the dock...and dock-deck.
Question: have you noted any settling? have you made any contingent adjustments available in the event of settling?

An observation,
While visiting a friends retirement home site I made careful observations of a dock that he had built there. It is a very large E shaped dock with two bays for boats to park. It also had hoists mounted to a beam in the roof to lift the boats out of the water. This area has lots of rock and the posts for the docks were just set on top of the rock, no footer, not anchored to the bottom. The roof in combination with the deck gave the dock it's stability. It also made a nice place to store a few fishing poles.

As a sidenote, metal roofs also require less framing than shingle roofs and go on much faster.

I'm not a big fan of the type of metal roofing that screws/nails through the exposed ridges. Not a big deal for a dock but a house is a different story. In my opinion it is risky to rely on a rubber type washer to be water tight over 20+ years.

Ryan,
You're driving me nutz....information overload! The house roof thing is probably 4 years away, so hang onto that one for me. Cracks me up, tho, because it has already been on my mind (screws thru the roof or clip panels...hmmmm). I am gonna focus on the pier and dock since they will be early 2006 prep. projects. I will admit that since the pier is small square footage, I would seriously consider the additional cost to just do it right with clip panels.
Ya know, it seems like every time I open this forum you guys come up with one more thing that I gotta do before the water backs up. This whole thing started out as simple...just clear the timber this year and push the dirt next year. Now my laundry list is growing and I am starting to feel like 9 months ain't enuff time to do all the laundry. Yikes! (the only one that is not surprised is wifey! she is used to this)

I have seen a lot of hedge apple fence posts like Theo and others have described, we have plenty of those nasty trees around here. We have a locust grove behind the homestead just for making posts. They have similar properties of the hedge apple, but are MUCH straighter.

Hey Jeff...
what did you use to anchor the timbers to the tops of the concrete piers?
Ryan,
thank goodness I don't have any Hedge on the property....I won't be adding this one to my laundry list (thanx).
Bski

I have two methods of anchoring the posts to the pier that might work. 1: stick a piece of rebar in the concrete before it sets up, leaving a few inches sticking out and drill a hole in the bottom of the post that will slip over the rebar. 2: They make an bracket (designed for 4x4 or 6x6) that has a rod in the bottom and a C shaped bracket with a hole, that recieves the post.

A BETTER WOOD POST-rather than use treated a 4x4, 6x6 etc. I believe it it better to laminate several 2x boards together by screwing in combination with waterproof construction adhesive. The finished product has treatment all the way through, resists splitting, warping, and starts out straighter.

Ryan,
very familiar with (used many times) the galv support brackets that are commonly used over an anchor bolt in the top of the pier. I know the quality of the hot dip (or brite spangled) and it ain't made for submersion over time, particularly since they are stamped from flat sheet leaving the edges unprotected. I can't go with the "slip it over a vertical rod" program because I need to have it anchored down....can't have it tipping in high wind or shifting ice. I was just fishin' (pardon/pun) for some outta the box ideas....or....as usual, somebody gives me a kick and points me at a product designed for exactly what I want and been in service for 50 years.

Just stole this from the Virginia Dept of Game & Inland fisheries:

Wood and Hardware: Wood for piers should be pressure treated to retard decay. The most popular treatment is (CCA) treatment salt-treated. CCA treated wood is a good choice because its green appearance is widely accepted, it is less likely to stain clothes than wood treated with some of the other treatments, can be ordered with various amounts of treatment, and has a good record of holding up to the elements. CCA wood that will be in constant contact with saltwater, should be treated to a level of 2.5 pounds of retention per cubic foot (pcf) of wood. Wood that will receive saltwater splash should have a retention of 1.5 pcf. For fresh water, wood that will be continually exposed to water should have a retention of 1.5 pcf with wood above the water, having at least 0.6 pcf. All bolts and nails should be hot dipped galvanized. Where hardware will come in frequent contact with salt water, a better choice would be stainless steel since our experience is that even galvanized hardware will rust in time.

Brettski, another option would be to make your own brackets out of heavier steel and coat with an appropriate paint system. Weld a J bent piece of rebar to the bottom of welded bracket. You could probably find what you need at your local steel yard in their scap heap. All you would need is a reciprocating saw or angle grinder, welder, and drill. You could always make the pieces and let someone else weld them together. There are many paint systems available that will outlast the rest of your dock. Sherwin Williams has a system as follows: Zinc Clad 200 (organic zinc) primer protects the steel, HD Epoxy is tough and protects the primer, follow by a High Solids urethane tinted if you like, to protect the Epoxy from the sun. International paint has a similar two part system that has an Organic zinc primer(Interzinc 52) followed by a water based acrylic top coat. Ameron has a similar system. These are all used in extreme conditions such as oil rigs, ocean liners, and bridges where salt is used on roads. There seems to be a fear of steel on this site so I didn't bring it up before. I'm still not sure why steel isn't being used more often for main beams and posts.

My assumption is it's because the weight of steel makes it hard for us DIYers. I know I didn't have any trouble standing in 4' of water nailing 2"x10"s to posts; I would be much more hesitant to do it with I-beams.

Steel is of course much better for longer spans, heavy loads, etc.; but I think it kicks handling requirements up into the heavy machinery range. I have no qualms about steel's longevity at a freshwater pond and am sure it will outlast wood, but then I figure the wood will likely outlast me.

Ryan,
No fear of steel here...been sellin' it for 28 years. It is not inordinate for me to contract a government job at the plant where I work. I am still searching and hoping to find sumthin real simple. If not, the plan at this point is probably something like: a) drill a 12" dia x 36" deep hole for each vertical support into pond bottom (about 8 +/-) b) sonotube up another 2 feet above pond bottom c) 4 verts and 5 expoxy coated circle rebar per pier (govt work) d) pour the piers when the concrete truck is pouring the slab for the launch (shhhh, not too loud or my wife will hear) e) set a galv or stainless j-bolt at the center/top of each f) buy (or fabricate) stainless post anchor (simple C shape, similar to cheapie deck post anchors, hole drilled center/bottom) and bolt one to each J bolt at top of ea pier g) 6 x 6 treated post, recess center/bottom of post to accommodate the protruding J-bolt and drop it into fabricated SS fabricated post anchor h) 1/2" bit, horizontal thru the verts of the SS post anchor, thru the 6 x 6, and out the other side of SS post anchor i) 1/2" x 8" galv bolt thru hole just drilled.
Then, onto the treated framing.....stay tuned.

Don't be afeared of steel...

Here's a bridge I built over a finger of my pond. It's 52 feet long...and I spent about $100 on it. All I had to buy was the cable, clamps and that angle iron for the hand rail. Just wish they would part with some more of the stuff.

This is actually modular warehouse shelving. Each section spans 13 feet, and it comes in widths from about 30" to 48". My buddy tells me that when Wal Mart moves or upgrades they basically give this stuff away as well. I got it from my employer, but ever since, when I'm at auctions, I look pretty close for the stuff.

Could've put a wood deck on it, easy enough, but got quarry screen for nothing. I've painte it since, so it looks better. Buried the legs in the ground about 30" with sakrete. Prolly didn't need the sakrete...it'll stand longer than I do.

[img]http://images.snapfish.com/3454%3B%3A8%3B23232%7Ffp335%3Enu%3D323%3B%3E756%3E465%3EWSNRCG%3D3233327%3B45569nu0mrj[/img]

I take back what I said about you guys being scared.

Sounds like you have a good plan Brettski. I wish I could think of something simpler.

Nice job on the bridge Matt. Way to recycle!

Matt,
Love the foot-bridge! With the price of scrap metal these days, I find it hard to believe that anyone would knowingly give away anything made of steel.
On a lighter side, pretty soon you'll see that same bridge design in a Harbor Freight catalog, made in China....you're onto sumthin'....better capture the market while you can.

Brettski,
Just saw your question - I have been out deer hunting - WINDY weekend! The deer were holding tight.
I put a SS j-bolt in the wet concrete and used adjustable galvanized post brackets - you can partially see the brackets in one of the pictures. I have had no settling. I really like the green metal roof with the red cedar - I would have prefered to build my house with the same materials. I am one hour west of St. Louis if you ever want to see the lake/ dock.

Jeff,
where did you find the SS J-bolts and the brackets? As I mentioned in a previous post, your pier/dock is inspirational. How 'bout some basic dimensions?
Thx, Bski
ps; thanx for the offer to visit...would luv to, but the ride from north-east Il would likely make it a long haul.

Jeff
I too would like more info. Showed your pics to a contractor, measured it out, and we are looking at a 10x12 "shade" area and a 14x16 deck. Anxiously awaiting his draft and bid. Yours is impressive! Appreciate your post and pics.
al

Would love some of those Missouri HEAVY-WEIGHT deer genes in my herd...

I've spent the last six months bouncing from one design to another on the pier I was going to build on my pond.

Then about a month ago while clearing timber, I realized that I didn't need a pier if I built a peninsula. Water on three sides, grassy sides slopeing gently to the waters edge and a gazebo at the end.

Eddie

eddie, the peninsula is good, but it may not be an apples to apples replacement for a pier.

The pier is easier to dock a boat, better to jump off of for swimming, and provides good cover for fish.

Can you do both?

Sunil and Eddie...
In my case, I nixed the peninsula idea right away because it would take too much water square footage in return for access square footage. My proposed pond shape will not work well with a man-made peninsula. The dock will be installed directly next to a small boat launch. I anticipate the launch to be poured concrete, about 12' wide. The dock will work very nicely and efficiently with it. A covered patio at the end will be a super bonus.

I, too have thought about an earthen pier or peninsula, but think it would break up the water circulation from the aerator in my case. Great concept if it works for you.

I will be building a room that will extend from the yard out over the water. My thoughts are to use 4 inch pvc capped on the bottom and filled with concrete using a j bolt to anchor the building. I know I could use water pressure to place the pvc down in the soil but my problem is the pond was lined with clay to make it hold water. It is holding very well and I do not desire to develope a leak. Are there any suggestions , if necessary I would change from pvc?
thanks

Paul,
Hmmmm, I think I'm reading your intent correctly, but please correct me if I stray. You are considering use of a concrete filled 4" dia PVC pipe with a cap at the bottom as a vertical support member...? This being the case, an number of engineering issues come to mind: prevention of the the base being driven into the clay bottom, how to stabilize horizontal movement and shear, the compressive strength of PVC to support the vertical load. I s'pose the first issue could be resolved by borrowing the engineering that Tommy Docks uses as a "standard footpad": Tommy Docks Composition . You may be able to use a flange at the bottom of the pipe instead of a cap, fabricate your own design footpad and attach it to the flange. This may include a short spike welded to the bottom of the footpad to drive into the clay to stabilize horizontal movement at the bottom. Or, you could just use Tommy Dock hardware, or similar.
If I'm way off base, please tune me up.

This should do very well. A little make over to accept at least 4 inch pvc and it will do less damage to the clay bottom.
thanks

I have seen that rebar can be put in the pipe first, then concrete.

I also will use rebar in the pvc with concrete. I need to get to the store so I can see everything on how the pvc could be connected to the auger and such. I am presently getting ready to pour concrete for a building that got blowed over. With a concrete job there are always areas that would be nice to place concrete. Things do not move very fast after you get over 73 years old.

Deaner, if I'm moving at all at 73, I'll be lucky. BTW: great job and very unselfish with what you are doing with the Katrina victims.

Burgermeister
I have never been involved in anything similar to what I am trying to do for the Katrina victims. One thing above all I want every step to be proper and above all to run this in the most honest manner so there are no doubts. I have a very good guy working with me that feels the same way. We sent out a large mailing about two days ago (400) and the funds are never used in this manner.
Thanks for your support.

Well, I just did a little research on stainless steel post anchor units. Yikes! For 6 x 6 adjustable "galvanized", the Home Depot carries 'em for about $30 per unit. Since their vendor is Simpson, I went to the Simpson Strong-tie website and found that they manufacture the same unit in a stainless steel. Home Depot can special order them at a paltry $289 per unit. I'm leaning toward some "government work" on this part of the project.

12/1 update....
and, I found the stainless steel anchor bolts. A bit more reasonable; search for anchor bolts: McMaster Carr

Here are some 20x20 inch reinforced concrete piers for a new pond in NW Ohio.

Holy smokes, talk about heavy duty! And I thought that I was the King of over-kill. I s'pose it cures the need for any stainless steel hardware, eh?

OK, I ain't giving up! Seems that Home Depot may need a new calculator. I just found the same Simpson stainless steel post bases for $72 each....MUCH better. This makes over-kill pert' near affordable. SS Post Bases

Gainesjs
This is for you. Hope this works
http://photobucket.com/albums/b165/ahvatsa/Catfish%20pond/Pier/
The county was replacing some water crossings and the footings were a gift.

Taaa-daaa! and then there was a pier!
V nice job, Ahvatsa. What a great platform for just about anything. Throw out some of the construction spec's, ie; concrete pier dia's/depth, framing dimensions, fastener types (galv or SS). You and Jeff are my models.
Is the actual pond construction complete? Got water? I still go back and peruse your first photo-bucket collection. Anything past that?

I am building a building out over the water. Since my pond is lined with clay and packed I decided to use the screw soil anchors into the bottom about 2 feet, placed a 6 inch pvc over the anchor and hand pounded it down to solid soil, then I used rebar and concrete to fill the pvc and j bolts to anchor the wood frame. The size of the building is 20 X 30 feet. I will need a toilet installed in one corner area for those that grow older. We are about 15 feet out into the water and we are about a foot low on water so we could do the work in the deeper area.

ahvatsa :

Great looking pier/house. I do have one question. In pic # 4 is that your guard dog (lower right) fixing to eat up that board. I really laughed when I saw him in his red coat. So much for everything being bigger in Texas. Just so you will know we have a little dog too and he is great as I am sure yours is.

Paul worries:
Paul, I have been haunted by a vision that I just cannot shake outta my head. I know I have seen a unit that will provide accommodations for two, given a simple alteration by adding a couple of seats. THEN IT HIT ME.....
Shanty or winter outhouse?

(just goofin )

ahvatsa,
Nice looking dock - brilliant design!
Brettski must be inspired.

Brettski
construction specs: Printed pics of Gainesjs' project and told my #1 hand to build it! 8x10 roof area with 4' walk around. I also ask him to make it "solid as a rock". He did...There's 56 bags of concrete...I will never "hand mix" that again. Should sit in 5' and 11-12' off end.(upon completion was discovered it will be 5-6"UNDER water at spillway level. May never see in my lifetime.) Pond is complete. What's water? Going to wait until Mayish and drill a well. Will add some pics to origional soon.
ewest
Hard to believe how that "guard dog" has captured our hearts! She's only 5 mo. a Chineese Crested hairless... if that means anything. Had a BAD dream of a hawk swooping down...Let's not go there! Went to west Tx. hunting and came home to her! Had a few choice words for my wife... 48hrs. later she was going to the office with me.
Gainesjs
YES, a brilliant design. If you make it to So. Texas, Steaks are on me. Mortons or Ruth Chris...u decide.
ps I grew up with a "Jeff Gaines"

Beautiful, ahvatsa.

My first hand-mix C-ment job was also my last (so far, at least).

This all looks great but how do you install a pier when the pond is aready full?

Tuzz
Very slowly and be sure to take deep breaths when possible. It is very tough to build anything after your pond is full, The main thing to keep on your mind is how bad do I want this struture? Once you get the deep part completed it becomes much easier. We use 80 # bags and we have gone thru 70 bags and if you are in doubt ask my back. My lady said to start buying 40 # bags but they cost more.

ahvatsa,
My pond took two years to fill. Its about 2' low now because of the year long drought. Hope we get a gully washer soon.
All my relatives are from Minneapolis. I took the family on a south Texas vacation a few years ago, just to check out the "worlds best water park" - The Schlitterbahn. Next time I visit Texas I may try some Striper fishing.

Jeff and Ahvatsa...
Yep, inspired...you betcha! I gotta admit, tho, that the "King of Overkill" side of me is tearing me up while I mind-engineer the structure. I keep going back to the actual support structure at the concrete piers. I definitely see poured concrete piers, drilled into the bottom (using a concrete truck, thank you Ahvatsa...your arms must look like Popeye's). My self-made dilemna comes in at the transfer of the concrete pier support to the 6 x 6 treated verts. Unless I am wrong, it appears that every structure I have seen in this forum, that uses a concrete pier, sets the treated timber inside the poured pier, permanently embedded. King Overkill sits on my right hand shoulder and keeps reminding me that if a timber ever had to be replaced, it would be wise to spend the xtra bux and use SS post bases on top of the conc pier and attach the timber there. King Overkill peers really deep into his crystal ball and see stuff like wracking ice floes that tear up the posts over time, premature failure due to inadequate green-treating, normal shelf-life exposure decay that the next generation may have to deal with...you know, stuff like that. Then General Chill-pill kicks in from the left shoulder and reminds me that "I'm doin' it again...you're makin' too big a deal, dude". Sink 'em in concrete, save the $ for the SS, and enjoy life without puttin' out for a 5 million dollar umbrella policy that you're not gonna use.

Brettski,
I am also the king of overkill. I built a cedar clubhouse for my kids big enough to live in - I have only seen them in the club house once - I think I will convert it into a deer hunting stand.
If I ever have to replace my 6x6 cedar piers, I imagined that I would just slap new ones in, along side the older ones. I would just set the bottom of the new posts on top of the concrete footings and bolt the top to the existing deck beams and solid portions of the older posts. After the new posts were secured, I could cut out any rotten post material.
This was the vision, (hallucination)

avahasta,

Great looking pier. Avahasta envy is kicking in.

Nice cowboy boots and sweater on the dog, matches mom's outfit.

Tuzz, you might consider a floating structure. I built a 10x10 floating dock using plastic 55 gal barrels that you can get at a farmstore or at a soft drink bottler as throw aways. The cost was about 500$ mostly for the treated lumber deck. the barrels go for about 6$ each and I happen to already have them on hand.

Or you can wait for a draught, mine took 8 years to occur, I recently finished a 16x16 peir to replace it. The structure I used was railroad ties for post and beam structure and then built 2x6 treated deck on top of the railroad tie structure.

rockytopper,

Any pics of that new dock?

I am interested in material for installing on the deck of the building. I have reread the topics and picked up the composite and I looked in at Home Depot but they did not have much. any suggestion or ideas would be appreciated--thanks.

ceadmin,

I know this is not the picture you asked for, but I thought I would show you a picture of my floating dock and raft.

Ceadmin, at the present my PC at home is on the blink eat by virus. I will eventually update my pond page on my web site to show the new pier and 100 foot of retaining wall also made from railroad ties. That is if it ever fills up again. E-mail me I will send you some pic's sooner. I cannot work on my website here at work & a new PC may be awhile in getting, still paying for the pier & wall.

Fuzzy bear, nice floater very similar to the one I built. What is floating it? Foam or barrels?
The barrels worked ok for me except the dock should have been 10x20 instead of 10x10 because the weight of my 16 ft walk made the dock sink down at the back until some one walked onto it and it would level it self.

rockytopper,

It is actually the styrofoam billets that Dow makes. If have PDF files of the plans if anyone wants them. I hinged it at the shore (not shown) by putting a 1" galvanized pipe thru the 4x4 posts and dock and then another galvanized pipe thru eye hooks located between the dock and the raft. That allows the raft to float up and down with the fluctuating water levels I have. It has worked pretty good so far. The hinging at the raft and placing a billet under the end of the dock, eliminated the tipping you were talking about rocky.

Hey i would love a copy of those plans, i am building a dock of my own but would have to make the walk way longer will that cause me any issues with this design?
Shaun

Shaun this is an old thread. As to your question I assume you are building a floating dock as pictured above. As I stated I used plastic barrels. They work fine but do not have the floating capacity as Styrofoam blocks or the flotation devises that Dwight used on his Barge/deck boat project. If the walk out gets too long and creates a load on the dock that makes it tip up under the weight simply add a float or floats under the walk itself to counter this. In my case if I had made the dock longer it's weight would have overcome the walkway pushing down one end of it. If you have to go way out you might want to drive piers and make part of the walk solid and only hinge the end of it at the dock

I'd like a copy of those plans too. That dock in the photo is exactly what I want to build.

Bump,Bump,Bump...Are these plans still available??

Have you tried to PM fuzzy bear for plans? As stated this is a very old thread. He might not be hanging around very often to see your request and reply to you guys.

http://www.canadianfishing.com/dock/qal.htm

This is the website for the dock plans ...du