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#1092 11/08/05 07:49 AM
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Another product I used to sell and install that hasn't been discussed is vinyl. The decks I constructed used a treated frame (CCA at that time). The decking was attached with a hidden fastener system that involved aluminum "tracks" fastened to the joists with stainless screws. A dead blow hammer is used to smack the deck boards in place, not ridgedly attached to facilitate expansion and contraction. The railing was vinyl and reinforced with galvanized steel channel. All exposed joists are wrapped in vinyl fascia cover. The first one I built was ten years ago and it looks as good today as it did when it was built and the lady who owns it loves it. It was expensive, but of the highest quality in my book.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
#1093 11/08/05 07:53 AM
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I'm with Tuzz...kinda simple. Another fear is making a permanent structure to weather the forces of shifting ice. I don't care to be "putting and taking out" the pier anually. Based on soil samples, I anticipate a very thick layer of clay at the pond bottom. I continue to foresee a 12" dia x 3 - 4 foot deep hole in the bottom of the pond, insert a treated 6 x 6 x 16'(or whatever length gets it well above the waterline), and fill the hole with concrete. Set these posts in pairs for as long as is required to frame a desired pier length. Has anybody followed this basic structure formula? Input?

#1094 11/08/05 09:26 AM
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Bretski,
I put cedar 6x6x16' long posts on top of 24" round concrete footing (using sonna tube) and used one extra large stainless steel timber bolt for each horizontal beam to post attachment. I like the design - its only a couple years old - I hope it will last for at least 20 years. Joists and rafters are treated - everything else is cedar. See attached pictures.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v216/gainesjs/


Jeff Gaines
#1095 11/08/05 09:52 AM
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Ryan,

Thanks for the info!. I appreciate your work to dig up prices and give detailed explanations.

The price of that lumber makes me want to find "alternative" materials. Maybe I can find some big cypress trees and saw my own or something. ;\)

You mentioned crowning the deck boards. I know cupping is a problem, even if you keep the crown up, sometimes the boards shrink and you still end up with a bit of a cup. One technique to help this is to use a screw on each side of the board, and none in the center. That way when it rains, the center of the board can crown up a little and shed water.

Another mistake I have seen is jamming the deck boards too close or even touching. They need at least 1/8" spacing, and 3/16" is even better for boards that get wet often.

Thanks again!

#1096 11/08/05 05:00 PM
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In the case of my dock, I did not see a need for a "footer" in the traditional sense, needed under the posts under water. Rather a pad, to keep the post from sinking into the mud would suffice. I do have a solid clay bottom. I was at a boat show in Columbus, Ohio an saw some maybe 1/8" wall 3" diameter pipe posts that spawned the idea for what I used. The posts this dock installer used had a screw type bottom that they said they screwed in about a foot before attaching their deck system. They said that a "footing" was not necessary below water/freezing level. This I would assume is that if the dock was high enough above full water level that ice would not force the dock up. I noticed that I gave the incorrect dimensions of my posts in my previous post. I used 3" dia. x 1/4" wall pipe with a 1'x1' steel plate welded to the bottom with an 18" steel pin welded to the plate. The pin was driven in until the plate hit bottom. My pond was full when I installed my dock and I envy those who are adding docks before their ponds fill.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
#1097 11/08/05 05:29 PM
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Jeff,
definitely wanna see your pix, but Photobucket is requesting login info...? What did you use to drill the 24" holes? How deep? What is the subsoil composition?
thx

#1098 11/09/05 09:28 AM
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Brettski,
My subsoil was heavy clay - I probably did not need such a large concrete base, but I have a heavy dock and we have had it loaded during parties. My neighbor was a Bobcat dealer so I got free use of a new toy with all attachments. The 24" auger attachment was tricky to use on the incline - I only drilled about 18" deep.
I will try to attach 3 pictures to this post,..

(img)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/gainesjs/start_boat_dock.jpg(/img)
(img)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/gainesjs/dock_almost_finished.jpg(/img)
(img)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/gainesjs/Finally_Full.jpg(/img)

If the link does not work I think you can cut and paste the address but do not use (img) in the address.


Jeff Gaines
#1099 11/09/05 04:15 PM
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Jeff, nice looking Dock! and pond!




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
#1100 11/10/05 07:04 AM
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Jeff,
V nice. Inspiring! Love the metal roof thing! This is the kinda stuff that I need to see before the water starts backing up. To date, I had not considered a roof. The wife and I endeavor to stay outta the sun and you have just provided another option (and more work, thank you). The dense woods surrounding our project keeps the humidity high, so I am already nixing an asphalt shingle roof on the future home for fear of uncontrollable moss growth; the zinc strips won't keep up, I fear. A metal roof is almost certain. Now, with your nudge of inspiration, I can foresee a matching roof and roof-line over the dock...and dock-deck.
Question: have you noted any settling? have you made any contingent adjustments available in the event of settling?

#1101 11/10/05 11:32 AM
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An observation,
While visiting a friends retirement home site I made careful observations of a dock that he had built there. It is a very large E shaped dock with two bays for boats to park. It also had hoists mounted to a beam in the roof to lift the boats out of the water. This area has lots of rock and the posts for the docks were just set on top of the rock, no footer, not anchored to the bottom. The roof in combination with the deck gave the dock it's stability. It also made a nice place to store a few fishing poles.

As a sidenote, metal roofs also require less framing than shingle roofs and go on much faster.

I'm not a big fan of the type of metal roofing that screws/nails through the exposed ridges. Not a big deal for a dock but a house is a different story. In my opinion it is risky to rely on a rubber type washer to be water tight over 20+ years.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
#1102 11/10/05 05:54 PM
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Ryan,
You're driving me nutz....information overload! The house roof thing is probably 4 years away, so hang onto that one for me. Cracks me up, tho, because it has already been on my mind (screws thru the roof or clip panels...hmmmm). I am gonna focus on the pier and dock since they will be early 2006 prep. projects. I will admit that since the pier is small square footage, I would seriously consider the additional cost to just do it right with clip panels.
Ya know, it seems like every time I open this forum you guys come up with one more thing that I gotta do before the water backs up. This whole thing started out as simple...just clear the timber this year and push the dirt next year. Now my laundry list is growing and I am starting to feel like 9 months ain't enuff time to do all the laundry. Yikes! (the only one that is not surprised is wifey! she is used to this)

#1103 11/11/05 08:14 AM
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I have seen a lot of hedge apple fence posts like Theo and others have described, we have plenty of those nasty trees around here. We have a locust grove behind the homestead just for making posts. They have similar properties of the hedge apple, but are MUCH straighter.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
#1104 11/11/05 03:01 PM
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Hey Jeff...
what did you use to anchor the timbers to the tops of the concrete piers?
Ryan,
thank goodness I don't have any Hedge on the property....I won't be adding this one to my laundry list (thanx).
Bski

#1105 11/11/05 05:02 PM
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I have two methods of anchoring the posts to the pier that might work. 1: stick a piece of rebar in the concrete before it sets up, leaving a few inches sticking out and drill a hole in the bottom of the post that will slip over the rebar. 2: They make an bracket (designed for 4x4 or 6x6) that has a rod in the bottom and a C shaped bracket with a hole, that recieves the post.

A BETTER WOOD POST-rather than use treated a 4x4, 6x6 etc. I believe it it better to laminate several 2x boards together by screwing in combination with waterproof construction adhesive. The finished product has treatment all the way through, resists splitting, warping, and starts out straighter.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
#1106 11/11/05 05:55 PM
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Ryan,
very familiar with (used many times) the galv support brackets that are commonly used over an anchor bolt in the top of the pier. I know the quality of the hot dip (or brite spangled) and it ain't made for submersion over time, particularly since they are stamped from flat sheet leaving the edges unprotected. I can't go with the "slip it over a vertical rod" program because I need to have it anchored down....can't have it tipping in high wind or shifting ice. I was just fishin' (pardon/pun) for some outta the box ideas....or....as usual, somebody gives me a kick and points me at a product designed for exactly what I want and been in service for 50 years.

#1107 11/11/05 07:52 PM
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Just stole this from the Virginia Dept of Game & Inland fisheries:

Wood and Hardware: Wood for piers should be pressure treated to retard decay. The most popular treatment is (CCA) treatment salt-treated. CCA treated wood is a good choice because its green appearance is widely accepted, it is less likely to stain clothes than wood treated with some of the other treatments, can be ordered with various amounts of treatment, and has a good record of holding up to the elements. CCA wood that will be in constant contact with saltwater, should be treated to a level of 2.5 pounds of retention per cubic foot (pcf) of wood. Wood that will receive saltwater splash should have a retention of 1.5 pcf. For fresh water, wood that will be continually exposed to water should have a retention of 1.5 pcf with wood above the water, having at least 0.6 pcf. All bolts and nails should be hot dipped galvanized. Where hardware will come in frequent contact with salt water, a better choice would be stainless steel since our experience is that even galvanized hardware will rust in time.

#1108 11/12/05 10:19 AM
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Brettski, another option would be to make your own brackets out of heavier steel and coat with an appropriate paint system. Weld a J bent piece of rebar to the bottom of welded bracket. You could probably find what you need at your local steel yard in their scap heap. All you would need is a reciprocating saw or angle grinder, welder, and drill. You could always make the pieces and let someone else weld them together. There are many paint systems available that will outlast the rest of your dock. Sherwin Williams has a system as follows: Zinc Clad 200 (organic zinc) primer protects the steel, HD Epoxy is tough and protects the primer, follow by a High Solids urethane tinted if you like, to protect the Epoxy from the sun. International paint has a similar two part system that has an Organic zinc primer(Interzinc 52) followed by a water based acrylic top coat. Ameron has a similar system. These are all used in extreme conditions such as oil rigs, ocean liners, and bridges where salt is used on roads. There seems to be a fear of steel on this site so I didn't bring it up before. I'm still not sure why steel isn't being used more often for main beams and posts.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
#1109 11/12/05 10:36 AM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Freeze:
There seems to be a fear of steel on this site so I didn't bring it up before. I'm still not sure why steel isn't being used more often for main beams and posts.
My assumption is it's because the weight of steel makes it hard for us DIYers. I know I didn't have any trouble standing in 4' of water nailing 2"x10"s to posts; I would be much more hesitant to do it with I-beams.

Steel is of course much better for longer spans, heavy loads, etc.; but I think it kicks handling requirements up into the heavy machinery range. I have no qualms about steel's longevity at a freshwater pond and am sure it will outlast wood, but then I figure the wood will likely outlast me.


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#1110 11/12/05 07:21 PM
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Ryan,
No fear of steel here...been sellin' it for 28 years. It is not inordinate for me to contract a government job at the plant where I work. I am still searching and hoping to find sumthin real simple. If not, the plan at this point is probably something like: a) drill a 12" dia x 36" deep hole for each vertical support into pond bottom (about 8 +/-) b) sonotube up another 2 feet above pond bottom c) 4 verts and 5 expoxy coated circle rebar per pier (govt work) d) pour the piers when the concrete truck is pouring the slab for the launch (shhhh, not too loud or my wife will hear) e) set a galv or stainless j-bolt at the center/top of each f) buy (or fabricate) stainless post anchor (simple C shape, similar to cheapie deck post anchors, hole drilled center/bottom) and bolt one to each J bolt at top of ea pier g) 6 x 6 treated post, recess center/bottom of post to accommodate the protruding J-bolt and drop it into fabricated SS fabricated post anchor h) 1/2" bit, horizontal thru the verts of the SS post anchor, thru the 6 x 6, and out the other side of SS post anchor i) 1/2" x 8" galv bolt thru hole just drilled.
Then, onto the treated framing.....stay tuned.

#1111 11/14/05 09:06 AM
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Don't be afeared of steel...

Here's a bridge I built over a finger of my pond. It's 52 feet long...and I spent about $100 on it. All I had to buy was the cable, clamps and that angle iron for the hand rail. Just wish they would part with some more of the stuff.

This is actually modular warehouse shelving. Each section spans 13 feet, and it comes in widths from about 30" to 48". My buddy tells me that when Wal Mart moves or upgrades they basically give this stuff away as well. I got it from my employer, but ever since, when I'm at auctions, I look pretty close for the stuff.

Could've put a wood deck on it, easy enough, but got quarry screen for nothing. I've painte it since, so it looks better. Buried the legs in the ground about 30" with sakrete. Prolly didn't need the sakrete...it'll stand longer than I do.

[img]http://images.snapfish.com/3454%3B%3A8%3B23232%7Ffp335%3Enu%3D323%3B%3E756%3E465%3EWSNRCG%3D3233327%3B45569nu0mrj[/img]


In a lifetime, the average driver will honk 15,250 times. My wife figures I'm due to die any day now...



#1112 11/14/05 12:23 PM
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I take back what I said about you guys being scared.

Sounds like you have a good plan Brettski. I wish I could think of something simpler.

Nice job on the bridge Matt. Way to recycle!




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
#1113 11/14/05 04:31 PM
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Matt,
Love the foot-bridge! With the price of scrap metal these days, I find it hard to believe that anyone would knowingly give away anything made of steel.
On a lighter side, pretty soon you'll see that same bridge design in a Harbor Freight catalog, made in China....you're onto sumthin'....better capture the market while you can.

#1114 11/15/05 02:13 PM
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Brettski,
Just saw your question - I have been out deer hunting - WINDY weekend! The deer were holding tight.
I put a SS j-bolt in the wet concrete and used adjustable galvanized post brackets - you can partially see the brackets in one of the pictures. I have had no settling. I really like the green metal roof with the red cedar - I would have prefered to build my house with the same materials. I am one hour west of St. Louis if you ever want to see the lake/ dock.


Jeff Gaines
#1115 11/16/05 07:00 AM
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Jeff,
where did you find the SS J-bolts and the brackets? As I mentioned in a previous post, your pier/dock is inspirational. How 'bout some basic dimensions?
Thx, Bski
ps; thanx for the offer to visit...would luv to, but the ride from north-east Il would likely make it a long haul.

#1116 11/16/05 07:45 AM
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Jeff
I too would like more info. Showed your pics to a contractor, measured it out, and we are looking at a 10x12 "shade" area and a 14x16 deck. Anxiously awaiting his draft and bid. Yours is impressive! Appreciate your post and pics.
al

Would love some of those Missouri HEAVY-WEIGHT deer genes in my herd...

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