Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose High Maintenance

Hello everyone, I'm new at this message board stuff so please bear with me. I'd first like to say that I've been a long time observer of this site and a six month subscriber to the magagzine which I highly recommend to those without subscriptions.

My family has a pond we use to irrigate crops with that we redug 2 years ago and I was planning on stocking it this spring. The basics of the pond are: 1.5 acres: sand, rock and concrete slab banks: 16 ft. deepest part: 7ft. average depth: 70% of bottom covered with chara: hard water?: 74 degrees highest water temp taken:
3 pine trees in for cover and alot of pallets in 4 ft of water: clear water.

The problem is deciding what kind of fish to put in it. There are four people in my family and each one of us likes fishing for a different species. To me the size of the fish is really not as immportatnt as not knowing what I'm going to catch. I've already got fathead minnows, golden shiners, mosquito fish and crawdads established. I also put 10 grass carp in last summer. I was wondering if someone could expand on the high maintenance of a high divesity pond.
Thanks

Corey, What are the 4 species that you are talking about?

We have bass, bream, catfish, fathead minnows, and will be stocking threadfin shad in the near future for additional forage. You can catch a mess of fish anytime you want. I have heard some people say you can't have a trophy bass pond with catfish. We don't catch a lot of 10 lb. plus bass. We have caught a lot of 5-7 lb. bass, as well as a few larger ones. If your pond is only 1.5 acres you can only raise so many big bass. There is a blue/channel cross that I would highly recommend, especially if you have people in your family who like to catch fish.

Thanks for the replies. I kind of like fishing for hybrid stripers or walleye while my dad is more of a crappie guy. One brother likes to catch catfish and my other brother likes anything that bites. Nothing against largemouth but I was kind of thinking about something other than the standard largemouth, bluegill, channel cat pond.

swampstalker, I've read about the blue/channel cat hybrids and they sound like a great fish but I don't think anyone sells them around here. The closest fish farms to me that I am aware of are actually trout farms in new mexico and colorado,and I think that a high temp of 74 would be pushing my luck with trout.

Corey,

There are a lot of fish farms in this area that have this strain of catfish. I think this strain was developed at Auburn University. Your best bet may be to contact them. People who have dealt with them in the past say they are very cooperative. Also, I am sure that there are farms in Arkansas that have this cross. That would be close to you. Another thought would be Texas A&M. Do not dare put crappie in a 1.5 acre pond. Within a couple of years you will have a pond full of eyeballs and tails. I do not have personal experience with hybrid stripers. I know they will eat feed which always helps. There mouth is not big enough to eat large bream. I am told that it takes about 2 yrs. for them to grow to a good eating size. One concern I would have of catching them before they are good eating size or for catch and release is they often fight to near death when caught and many die when put back. That had to be a run on sentence.

Swampstalker, Those hybrid catfish sound tempting to me. Where I live it is probably 300 miles to the Arkansas border. Maybe if they air freight fish it would be an option. Texas A&M is even farther. I'll look around and see if I can't find some of those cats closer. The only fish so far that I've decided for sure to get are bluegill and some sort of catfish(not bullheads or flatheads)

Corey, Check with local large feed stores, USDA, local Game Warden and other land owners to see where stocker fish come from. The catfish are a good option and the hybrids are an open water type fish that will eat bluegill up to a certain size. Largemouth are actually good bluegill population control with no other fish coming in at a close second. I guess I'm saying that the standard stocking ratio of bluegill, LMB, and catfish, etc. has a lot going for it from a management perspective. Running a feeder makes sense when you have the hybrids in a small area and catfish will eat a lot of feed. You can check around but I think the hybrids usually come about 8 to 10 inches. At least that is what a wholesale hybrid dealer told me. I think you will need some sort of brush cover to protect the small fish or the hybrids will clean up on them. I think most everyone agrees about crappie being a no-no in less than 40 acre ponds. Look at the posts here to learn more.

Dave, The fish farm that I got the grass carp from is Dunn's fish farm. They used to bring a truck to the local feed store. If I remember correctly they only sold florida strain largemouths and coppernose bluegill along with redears,channel cats and black crappie. From what I've read on here the florida bass and coppernose bluegill wouldn't do well in these parts. I've thought about a smallmouth/walleye/yellow perch pond. I think with the average summer water temp in the upper 60's and the very clear water the cooler water fish might be more desirable. What do you think about that kind of combo?

Any walleye fishery is going to be put and take, if thats okay with you go for it. Perch reproduction can be spotty in ponds with boom and bust years. SMB can reporduce in ponds if they have proper habitate, but they may not be able to find enough forage in low perch years and may not be able to keep perch from stunting in high perch years. Also with three predators in your pond you can kiss your minnows good bye.
I personaly hope to stock my pond with smallies and bgills. I have thought about walleyes added as a bonus fish, but even in my 10 acre pond I don't have any hopes of them spawning.
I wonder if golden shiners would be a good addition to smb/bg pond with bounus walleyes?

Corey, I don't know anything about SMB, trout or yellow perch. I don't think Dunns sells pure Florida bass but hybrids and personally question whether they might be pure Northerns. I have bought off their fish truck and had good luck with their LMB, bluegills, channel cats and fatheads. I think they do a disservice on their black crappie story but maybe they know something I don't know (highly possible). Also stay away from their hybrid bluegills. You can get a lot of info here about them. What do other water hole owners around you stock? Also, you might want to consider a put and take fishery of walleyes, SMB's, etc. If you do get some hybrids, make sure you have plenty of brushpiles for your forage fish. They are voracious.

Corey,

You can't beat the coppernose bream. Everybody seems to like redear as well. The general consensus on this board seems to favor an 80/20 split coppernose/redear. You need a good shellfish base to grow nice redear (snails, crawfish etc). If you do not want to stock bass you will need other predators. Sounds like the hybrid stripers might be a good fit for you.

Thanks for all of the responses. Dave,I found the Dunn's web site and your right the bass they sell are of the fla/northern strain. How well do they tolerate the cold weather?

There aren't but 2 ponds in this county, that I know of, that the owners actually stock and attempt to manage. One of them has is about 1/4 acre pond that is full of 8 inch LM bass and hybrid bluegill. The owner obviously isn't managing properly. The other pond is a club pond about 2 acres. It has decent LM bass up to about 4lbs and believe it or not really good crappie fishing. Most of the crappie I caught were 10 inch fish. The club rules allow 2 bass over 14 inches(never seen anyone keep one). The main fish that they stock are channel catfish several times a year and thats what about everyone fishes for. There is no limit on the crappie at this pond. This area is pretty arid so not many people have ponds around here. Everything else is tailwater pits with bullheads. The closest public lake has walleye, yellow perch, blue catfish, crappie, smallmouth bass and largemouth. Some of the other lakes within 90 or so miles have really good hybrid striper fishing. All of these lakes the main forage is gizzard shad.

Ty, I really like the idea about a few bonus walleye, even though they can't reproduce.(maybe a good thing) How would catfish affect a SM bass/walleye/yellow perch pond? What about a few redear sunfish as well?

Swampstalker, I've got plenty of snails and crawdads for those redears. How far north does the coppernose range go?

The main goal for the pond is not knowing what your going to catch. Personally thats what I like about fishing. I'm not too woried about how big the fish get as long as they are not all 8 in. I realize that stocking alot of predators is risky and not all species will spawn in my pond. I'll probably end up with one species of predator dominating the pond, but I can be there everyday to survey and manage it as best I can.
With alot of predator species could I stock gizzard shad as forage?

There is plenty of cover with all of the chara and brush piles for the perch and bluegill to hide. So many options I don't know if I'll ever decide what to stock. Thanks for taking the time to help me out.

Corey, One of the features of the FLorida/Northern LMB mix is being colder water tolerant. How cold? I don't know. A pure Florida would not survive in your area. You might check with Dunns to see if they can provide pure Northerns. They seem to bite better than Florida's or the hybrids.
Concerning the crappie at the club lake, it could be that continous hammering is keeping them beat back so they can't overspawn. Most pro's will tell you that crappie problems in small ponds are a matter of when, not if.

Corey - What method are you using to keep your pond surface temperatures at a max of 74F during mid summer? I would like to do the same thing for my ponds in northern Ohio. Our pond water temps will hit 90F for a few days and often several times in July and or August. We often have some perch and walleye die from thermal stress when ponds maintain 88F or 90+Fsurf temps for a week or more. I've concluded that the larger yellow perch and walleye become the more sensitive thery are to higher termperature. Northern OK is considerably south of Ohio and I would expect your water temps to be warmer for longer periods than those for Ohio.

If your warmest summer water temps are 74F, catfish will not grow very well or very fast at these temperatures. Catfish like water temps above 75F and are really happy at water temps beteeen 80F & 90F.

Bob, the main reason the water stays so cold is during the hottest part of the summer we have to water the corn crop. We usually pump around 600 gpm (up to 1200) into the pond for a couple of days then pump it out to water the corn. Then the process starts over. The water comes out of the ogallla aquifer and is around 52 to 56 degrees, so the water doesn't get much of a chance to warm up. Also the average low at night is the lower 60's. Maybe thats because we are at a higher elevation at 3500 ft than the rest of oklahoma. Thats just my theory. Another thing is the pond is mostly shaded. I hope I answered your questions.

No doubt the short retention times from the well water feed are keeping the pond temps lower. Have you checked the temps of deeper waters during mid summer? The deep water temps may be low enough and in ranges better for raising some trout instead of catfish.

I checked the bottom temperature last summer and it was only a few degrees cooler. I guess pumping water in and out all of the time keeps the water temp the same or close to it at all depths. Also now I've got the 1/4 horse compresser with 2 diffusers that i put in last fall so it might be even more uniform this summer. At first I did think about a trout only pond but I thought I would be pushing my luck with them. I didn't want to spend alot of money on them only to have a heat wave come through and leave me with nothing to fish for.

Your homework and conclusions seem to be appropriate so far. You basically have a cool- water pond. The predominate, popular cool-water species are yellow perch, smallmouth bass and walleye. You mentioned perch and walleye earlier. In your region you may be able to see exceptional growth from the cool-water species due to your extended growing season due to a short winter, real early springs and extended falls) combined with a full growing season all summer due to the artificially reduced summer water temps in the 70's. You have a very unique situation for a cool-water fishery! Keep us posted on your progress.

Putting warm water fish such as LMB and catfish into your pond will result in reduced growth rates; but growing slower may lead to their extended longevity and ultimately the warm water species could reach larger sizes. You will need to be more patient for the warm water types to attain larger sizes. Stripers will also do okay in the cool water situation, however growth will lag somewhat that seen in warmer waters.

Stripers and walleye will need to be restocked when harvested, but SMB should be able to repopulate okay if LMB are not present in very many numbers.

If you use walleye, consider not putting in the stripers right away. See how the golden shiners can maintain their numbers in the presence of perch and walleye predation. Perch and any predator will quickly (within 1 -2 yrs) eliminate most if not all the fatheads. If after several years the shiners and small perch are prospering you can then add a few Hy striped bass. HS bass are open water feeders and will prey heavily on the breeder shiners and then minnow forage base may suffer. It is important to keep the forage base abundant if you expect good growth of your sport fish.

Your only difficulty with the cool water species will be in locating nearby hatcheries that have them in your region.

Footnote. The 10 grass carp that you added last summer should by the end of 2004 make pretty big dent in the Chara amounts. If Chara is abundant in 2005 you may need to add a few more because the fish are not eating up to standard amounts due to the cooler water temps. Restock grass carp at the end of 2004 or early 2005. Number added will be based on amount of Chara growth remaining. Keeping the grass carp stocked at lower densities will allow you to maintain or leave a few Chara beds to provide cover for small fish and invetebrates. Some Chara growth will also help compete against and suppress one or several types of filamentous algae which always seems be a problem in almost all ponds.

Corey, since you are new to this “message board stuff”, let me tell you that it can be addictive. There is so much good stuff here it is unbelievable. I suggest you look at the many other message boards for other thoughts that might apply to your lake.

The next suggestion is that you get the books about the fishes of Colorado, Kansas and Oklahoma. You can look through them to find species you might be interested in.

Because of the rapid turn over of the water in your lake, I think that the biggest problem you will have is keeping up the forage base in your lake. Also, have you considered feeding your fish?

Do you have enough habitat to support and protect the forage species you have already stocked? Unless you have ¼ to ½ acre of heavily vegetated shallow water, your small species will all get eaten very quickly. My suggestion is that if it is practical, to make a shallow area 1-3 ft. deep and heavily vegetated. The more shallow area with heavy vegetation you can make the better. How much do you lower the lake level with irrigation?

If you have this heavily vegetated shallow area, then I suggest you also add red shiners, madtoms, orangespotted sunfish, and freshwater shrimp. This shallow area will provide much of your forage. It is unlikely that threadfin shad will live as far north as you are. If you don’t have this type of area, you have to think about what forage species to use. Someone else will have to comment about gizzard shad.

It seems that the walleye, SMB and perch combination would work for you. Here are some other ideas. Channel catfish and rainbow trout are incredibly cheap in the 1 lb. range. You might add trout on a put and take basis. They would have to be big enough to not get eaten. The same is true for catfish.

I hope that Dave Willis reads this and can comment. I’ve never heard of crappie being a problem in northern lakes. From the other postings, I gather that the problem with crappie is that they reproduce before the LMB. That means that all of the LMB fry get eaten and thus the lake becomes unbalanced. The way around this is simple, stock the predators. You can do an initial stocking and then supplement it each year with the 8” bass from the other lake.

There is one more species that I suggest you consider and that is freshwater drum. Many people consider them to be the same as carp but they’re not. They are tremendous game fish. They wouldn’t reproduce in your lake and you would only add 10-25 individuals.

Thanks for the responses! Lots of good info. I've been busy the last couple of days so sorry for the delay.

Bob, I totally agree that my pond is very unique. I think that the cool-water fish are what I'll stock, if I find a hatchery close by. When it comes to stocking a few more grass carp, how much chara do you think is too much? Maybe like 20 to 30% bottom covered is about right?? What do you think about adding gizzard shad as forage after a few years with that many predators? Could they control them?

Norm, I think that the shallow water areas have decent cover in my pond. Most of the cover is in the form of tree limbs, pallets and cement slabs. The water level goes down 3 or 4 feet and then back up again. In some areas the chara will be out of the water when its at the low point, but since its pretty steep sided I don't loose much surface area when its at the low water point. There is good cover at all depths. I didn't really want to feed the fish but if I did get some hybrid stripers i might. Also I am familiar with the drum you speak of. They are good fighters and bite when other fish won't. Never eaten one but some people love em while other people don't like them at all.

The ability for your predators to control gizzards will depend more on the size of the top predator than on the number. Gizzard shad max out at 22". SMB eat fish that are 1/4 to 1/3 thier body length. So after a fish gets over 8" a 24" smb will probably leave it alone. SMB might eat fish up to 1/2 thier body lenght (like a LMB) but that would be the exception and not the rule. Even assuming they did a 24" bass would only eat a 12" gizzard. Long story short, SMB are not going to touch the gizzard shad population. I wish they could, smb that ate gizzards would grow huge!
My question is how big and how many gizzard shad can a walleye eat? Walleye can grow bigger than SMB and should be adept at feeding on open water fish like shad. I read one paper that found walleye in an oklahoma resevior ate gizzard shad and drum and put on most of thier weight in the fall.

Corey,

I can't imagine that the coppernose would'nt work up North. Bream typically will feed down to about 40 degrees F I have been told. Our water never gets that cold. There are people in Ark. that sell coppernose. They could tell you. On second thought since they are trying to sell fish so contact a university. Our current water temp close to the surface is 52 degrees F. We have had a cold winter. When I tossed out some feed the other day the coppernose fed pretty well.

swampstalker believe it or not I had a client lose all of his coppernose in Lexington, KY. Redear fine, F1 bass fine but we had to buy native bluegill to solve problem, so coppernose in cool environments is a concern.

Wow! I would have never guessed. Bream in general appear to be the most cold hardy fish we have down south. You think the cold is what killed them?