Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Hi diversity vrs. low diversity species in ponds

Dave: yes, having very good water quality is essential to what i'm doing. I have two very large diffuser type aerators, each of which is rated to handle 5 acres.

Greg: it might be cheaper to feed and raise a person's own fish from fingerlings but it isn't nearly as fast. Plus, as fishing pressure increases, it physicially isn't possible to raise enough fish to replace the number of fish removed. As you know, it costs thousands of dollars to make a lake. A thousand or two dollars for fish each year is miniscue compared to the cost of the lake.

Cost is always relative to how much you have to spend, what may be reasonable expenses to you may not be to others. I would have to drain my pond if it required a thousand or two a year to maintain.

Norm good point. I thought it was catch and release though. Exactly how much fishing pressure does it get?

For me, this has been an extremely interesting discussion. I’ve now come to a number of conclusions.

I had been casting about for information about small lake management. I’ve concluded that I’ve found a home with Pond Boss. These chat rooms about different subjects are invaluable!

I think that current small lakes management techniques work very well for many people. The goal now is to spread the practice of these techniques even further.

Unfortunately, these techniques work poorly in other situations. I think that small lakes fisheries management techniques will expand dramatically to work with these other situations.

The concept of “plug and play” is starting to dominate many industries. Fisheries managers use this concept in put and take fishing. Many hunting preserves use this technique when they raise game birds and waterfowl for hunters to shoot. I think that this type of management will become more prominent in small lakes. Many lake owners have the money to stock adult fish and let their friends and family catch them.

Along these lines, more people are going to want to start fishing their new lakes just as soon as they start filling. I think that the techniques for establishing the micro flora and fauna and stabilizing the water chemistry needed to support fish very quickly will be developed as a general management technique.

Most put and take fisheries require very short-term management. There isn’t enough food in the lake or stream to sustain or grow these fish for the long term. One of the exceptions is trout or catfish lakes where the fish readily eat pelleted food. I think that more people will decide to use a modified form of this type of management. The modified form is using adult or subadult fish but also having natural reproduction of predators and growing the forage in your lake in addition to feeding the fish.

Pond Boss has many chat rooms devoted to crappies. Obviously crappies thrive in southern waters. The problem seems to be with the management techniques and their application. I predict that managers will develop techniques to manage crappies as easily as they do bluegills.

Speaking of bluegills, I think fisheries managers will start using other species for forage for LMB. From what I read, the lakes in southern California use trout as forage. One of the problems with bluegills is that they sometimes grow bigger than the LMB can eat. This is wasted energy in terms of LMB production. Species that are smaller but still very prolific might work better.

Another prediction is that owners of small lakes will start to want many more and different species in their lakes than the usual group. High diversity lakes such as I have will become much more common. Lake owners will discover that it is no harder to manage these high diversity lakes than it is anything else. Generally accepted management techniques will be developed to manage lakes this way.

I think that the bias to using only a few species will decrease. This isn’t a very radical idea. We now have catfish, crappie and carp fishing clubs and tournaments. Many more people will conclude that catching and releasing a LMB isn’t any different than catching and releasing bowfin, gar, goldeyes, skipjack herring, freshwater drum, members of the pike family or any number of other species of fish. People will also discover that many of these species are quite good eating if prepared in methods other than frying. Along with this will be a demand for these species to stock in small lakes.

Another thing that I think will become more common is the use of nonbreeding fishing in our lakes. Wipers are the most obvious start of this trend. Many people stock, grow and harvest catfish. This also requires periodic restocking. The species that I think has the most potential for expanded use is freshwater drum. Anyone that enjoys fishing for red drum in saltwater will enjoy their freshwater counterpart just as much. They would take the place of catfish or a person could have half catfish and half drum. It is highly unlikely that drum will reproduce in most of our small lakes. Many people will discover that managing nonbreeding species is very easy.

As with everything else, money is important to this discussion. I drive an old Ford van and an even older Dodge pickup. Still, I don’t begrudge people that want and have the money to drive new pickups and SUV’s. The same is true with spending money on our lakes. Keep in mind that having our own personal fishing lakes is a huge luxury expenditure.

Many businesses and individuals accept the idea that when the build a new place, that the cost of landscaping is just part of the total cost. For many of these people, stocking their new lake with large fish immediately will be a no brainer.

This will create a demand for subadult and adult fish. This type of industry already exists for trout and catfish. I think an industry will develop to raise many more species of fish for the market as well as stocking in lakes. In particular, I think that a demand will develop for LMB, SMB and walleyes from the subadult to the very large sizes. I especially think that demand for large individuals of these species will develop and that many people won’t hesitate to buy them.

None of these ideas are all that radical. All of these things are being done now. The only thing different is that I think that these things will happen sooner rather than later.

All of these ideas present tremendous opportunities for people that raise and sell stocking fish for a living. More importantly, all of these different types of small lake management present all of us much more variety in the ways we manage our lakes.

Well put Norm. Each pond boss needs to decide the best way for them to spend thier funds. This is ofcourse a personal and unique decision. If someone is happy with spending the money on put and take let them do it, it is probably the most reliable way to manage a fishery.
There is a pond here in duluth,mn that is owned by the city. It has black nose dace, suckers and probably a few small brookies. Each spring the MN dnr stocks 500 10" brook trout in chester bowl. I heard that each fish cost over $10. Several thousand other 10" trout are stocked in other small ponds and streams in duluth parks to offer city kids a chance to catch keeper fish. This is a substantial investment for the very temporary but huge increase in catchable fish. But it fits the budget and managment goals of the MN dnr so they keep doing it year after year.

Norm, thanks for making me think. My goal is, has been, and will be to raise some big fish and create some sort of ill defined ecosystem. You are planning on catching keeper size fish. There is a lot of difference but you are starting out where I want to end up. Just a different methodology.

Norm...what about Blues, where do blues fit in your managemnt scheame? I know you have room some where in that 4 acres of your for blues...come on now..

I'm assuming you are talking about blue catfish. If I could get a few (say 5-10)I would certainly stock them. It would be fun to show people the difference between them and channel catfish. However, I don't want to let them get too big and start eating everything. Therefore, I would continually stock about 5 each year or two at about 1 lb. and remove the very large ones. However, flathead catfish, northern pike and common carp are out because they get too big.

I forgot to mention Gregg that I do make all of the pan fish catch and release. The only reason I wouldn't add green sunfish again is that they don't get as big as the other pan fish. However, now that I think about it, they really get hit hard by the LMB and catfish so we see very few of them.

I'm sorry I didn't answer your question Dave. We have three catfish that are about 10-12 lbs. The biggest LMB and SMB are about 18" long. I would love to have 4-5 individuals of each species in the 3-6 lb. range. I would also love the have 3-4 walleyes in the 5-7 lb. range and 3-4 drum in the 10 lb. range. This is just to have a few "WOW" fish. Most of the predators must be in the smaller range though to control the pan fish. First and foremost, I want everyone to catch lots of fish and it is easier to do this with pan fish than it is with predators.

Yes, Ty, various state fisheries often spend a lot on put and take but not always. Nebraska has many urban fishing lakes. All LMB and bluegills are catch and release but they stock catfish and have a limit of 3 per day.

Bowfin live as far north as northern MN. For more on the amazing Bowfin visit:
Fishes of Minnesota
http://www.gen.umn.edu/research/fish/fishes/bowfin.html

William: I really have to be careful with fish that will reproduce. They can dominate a small lake like mine too quickly. I do have one long nose gar in the lake and we see it sunning itself occassionally. We are at the extreme NW edge of bowfin range and I would like to have a single male bowfin. We also have a single highfin carpsucker and a single blue catfish. No northern pike because they are too common around here and I wouldn't want to get a breeding population going.

This is an update of our multispecies lake that we started in 2000. An article about this lake appeared in the July/August 2004 issue of Pond Boss magazine.

This lake is at Worthing, SD, 15 miles south of Sioux Falls, SD. It is a quarry from which clay has been mined. The first half of the lake was dug out and piled up in 7 islands and a large berm around the island. The other half of the lake has been hauled away. As someone wanted clay and would pay to dig it and haul it away, the lake got bigger. This lake was finally finished in 2005. The final lake has 4 acres of water and about 1½ acres of land in the 7 islands.

The species stocked in this lake are: LMB, SMB, HSB, white bass, rock bass, bluegill, hybrid bluegill, pumpkinseed, green sunfish, white crappie, black crappie, channel catfish, walleye, sauger, yellow perch, freshwater drum, goldeye, shorthead redhorse, white suckers and sterile grass carp. This is a total of 20 species.

This is a put, grow and take fishery except that we really don’t take any fish to eat. If I can get one more year of life out of a fish, that is one more year before I have to replace it. This achieves our goal of giving kids, handicapped and elderly the opportunity to catch a wide variety of species. We want a very high catch rate of moderately sized fish.

In 2004, Dave Willis had a couple of his students survey this lake as part of a class project. They found that the only reproduction was by the bluegill although by fishing, we have found very limited reproduction by LMB. That means I must add every other species to keep up their population.

We have two Stren feeders using Aquamax 600 feed. We see LMB, SMB, HSB, hybrid bluegills, bluegills, goldeyes and catfish using this feed. I’m assuming that the redhorse and white suckers are also eating the pellets after they sink.

There are two parts to my evaluation of our lakes. The first is how do different species contribute to the fishing experience of our guests. The second is how do different species compete with the other species.

This is my evaluation of different species in terms of their contribution to the experience of our guests. I’m listing the species form most to least in their contribution.

SMB: easy to catch, fight well even at a 10” size and are an attractive fish.
HSB: same as above.
HBG: very pretty, fight very well, aggressive. Most of our fish are 9-10” and look big.
BG: not as pretty or big as HBG but more plentiful. Easy to catch in summer on small worms.
Rock Bass: dependable, big red eyes that are fun to show people. Many fish over 10”, which is trophy size in SD.
Crappie, both black and white: seasonal in spring and fall. In season are easy to catch and all are over 10”.
LMB: lower catch rate than other species but we always catch a few with each group. Usually the biggest fish caught by each group. If we actually fish for them, we have lots of 15-20” fish.
Walleye: in the cooler times of the year, we catch quite a few. Everyone is walleye crazy around here and so it is a big deal that they caught them.
White suckers: fairly easy to catch with worms on the bottom. Fight hard and are pretty.
Channel catfish: are too big for the fishing tackle we use. We will probably set up one rod heavy enough for them. Fun to watch feeding on top.
Goldeyes: aren’t usually found in the part of the lake where we take our groups. Probably the most fun species to catch in our lake.
Pumpkinseeds: absolutely beautiful and we catch them occasionally.
Freshwater drum and shorthead redhorse: both beautiful species that fight hard. We catch them occasionally with worms on the bottom.
White bass: probably not enough open water forage, out competed by the HSB.
Yellow perch and green sunfish: almost eliminated by predation.
Sauger: only about 5-10 in lake and we catch them occasionally as something different.
Sterile grass carp: we see them occasionally but have never caught one.

The most important thing that we notice after 5 years is the complete dominance of predators. This is especially true for baby fish up to about the 2-inch size. After 2-inches, the LMB, SMB, walleye and catfish take over. Actually, the really heavy competition for forage occurs for the forage occurs for the prey under 2 inches.

In any situation, there are always winners and losers. In our lake, yellow perch and green sunfish have almost been eliminated by predation. Most white bass have died, probably due to a lack of forage. In the cool parts of the season, the walleye, sauger and crappie do very well and are in very good shape. Towards the end of summer, they are very skinny. The LMB, SMB, HSB, HBG, BG and rock bass are always in good condition. From feeding, the catfish are extremely fat.

From all of this, I’ve come up with the following restocking plan. Bigger fish are always better than small to survive predation.

Bluegills reproduce enough for a self-sustaining population.
SMB, at least 50 per year. Must be at least 8” to survive predation. I have a small grow out lake but will buy them if I have to.
HSB, about 50 per year if I can get them. Must be at least 6-8” to survive predation.
HBG, I would put in 100 a year if I could get them. Very difficult to find them at the 5-6” size.
LMB, I want to watch the lake more. We might be getting enough reproduction now.
Rock bass are a great species in our lake. I’ll put in 50-100 per year. Must be 5-6 inches.
Walleye must be at least 14 inches not just to survive predation but also to move up to a little bigger size prey. 10-20 per year.
Sauger, as I can get them which is not often.
Crappie about 25 black and 25 white per year. Must be 6-8” to survive.
Channel catfish eat a lot of pellets and take up a lot of biomass in our lake. I’ll add only 5-10 per year.
Pumpkinseeds are beautiful and I am trying to raise them in a small grow out pond along with SMB. As many as I can get.
Freshwater drum, white suckers and shorthead redhorse are all fun and the white suckers will reproduce producing forage although almost all of their young will be eaten. Ten to 20 of each per year.
White bass, I would try some more but mark them to see how they survive.
Goldeyes, I love them! I will put in 10-25 per year just for me, they are so much fun to catch.
Yellow perch are probably close to gone from our lake. If I get a chance, I’d put in about 25 each year just to get their very early spawn.
Green sunfish are close to gone and I will just let them die out.
I don’t know about more sterile grass carp. I’ll just have to see how things go.
Paddlefish, if I can get some pellet-trained ones big enough to survive, I’ll do it. People would love to watch them.

This is a very long post, I know, but maybe something in here will give someone else some ideas.

Thanks for the update on what is in many ways a special project, Norm.

Posts like this are my favorite item on the forum. It's great to know what others think when it comes to overall philosophy of pond management. It's also great when people document happenings in their pond. All of you newbies or lurkers take note! You can make a great contribution to this forum just by taking notes and writing down observations. Norm makes a great contribution to this forum through his knowledge and vision, but even if he just took notes like he does, this alone would help everybody out.

This is very interesting reading and I printed it out to study furthur. Thanks for the great information and observation.

Dwight

Norm :

Great job. I don't have any idea how you keep so many species with out having total chaos in the pond. Do you do seine surveys? How do you estimate natural morts. (other than fish caught and kept). I assume some guests keep fish. Do you keep a mgt. plan ( ie.-- I want/need to take out 20 LMB , 15 crappie, 50 BG etc. this year). I would be interested in how you reach that decision and on what info you base it.

Ewest (and others) -- we'll probably do another electrofishing survey this upcoming fall (September around here), and check on the reproduction of various fishes. Norm likes to have the students see his place.

ewest, no, no fish are kept ever! I use this lake for kids, handicapped and elderly fishing in groups. The lake itself is located on property we own where my wife's business is located. She has 50 employees. The employees and their friends and families can fish this lake any time they want as long as the employee is there to protect the property.

Many of our employees really just want fish to eat. This is especially true of the big catfish and HBG. Rather than trying to control it, I just don't want to set the precedent. Therefore, we just make it a flat statement that no fish are allowed to be taken from the lake for any reason. It makes everything simplier.

Norm :

How do you determine the populations so that you can tell what is there and what to add ( mort. rates) ? Does Dave do that via the shock surveys or is other data used ?

ewest, I use the "by gosh and by golly" form of scientific measurement.

Actually, I can do a bit better than that. I've kept pretty good records of what I stocked and then am assuming a 20-40% annual mortality rate. What is harder to work with is that I am still working with many of the fish that were stocked when they were small in the initial stocking. Beyond that, I look at what we are catching and how each species contributes to the over all fishing experience.

A harder part of all of this is just getting the fish at big enough sizes to escape predation.

This might all sound like a lot of work but it's no more than someone with CC or HSB must go through.

Norm :

Thanks for the report. Those seem like high mort. rates on adult fish in your described situation (with a 6 yr. old pond in your area). I do have to remind myself that all things mort. in the end and that this fact should be added to the % equation. Do you think that most of the adult fish in your pond are caught once a year or more or less. Catch rate morts. are quite hard to get a good read on for me. Studies are all over the place ,which is expected.

Sources of good quality adult fish from reliable sources are hard to find unless you can catch and id them yourself. But it seems to be getting better here at least for some species.

ewest, there is such a difference in mortality rates for different species. We catch many of these fish 25-50 times a year. Remember, we only fish from two spots and the fish in these areas are caught over and over again. The fish in other areas are caught seldom, if ever.

SMB and HSB are the back bone of our fishery so I'll stock more of these and less of other species. After these two, HBG and rock bass are the next two most important. Lastly, everyone wants to catch a walleye so I have to restock them.

What I'm doing is no more than planting a garden every year. I look at what grows in my area, what people like to eat and adjust accordingly.