Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Hybrid bluegill and swimming in a new pond

Imlay City Fish Farm has black smallmouth bass available for next fall, I have never heard of black smallies, are they what we have been talking about or a totally different fish.

Also, Bill I noticed in one of your posts on SMB ponds that you suggest crayfish as a food source, should I be considering these, or will it just make it harder to catch them?

Thanks again

In most every case the black smallmouth bass is the regular SMB. You will see this term from old hatcheries with older operators or their family still in charge of the main operations. The basses (Micropterus) of the Centrarchidae (sunfish) family are often referred to as black bass. I have an older book from the Sport Fishing Institute titled Black Bass Biology and Management.

I think, but do not know for sure that the term black comes from the color of the hatchling fry which are usually very dark or black appearing esp the SMB.

Crayfish are a "favorite" food item of SMB, if fish have favorite foods. Favorite is a human term. I think the SMB are better adapted at eating crayfish than LMB. SMB are more often associated with streams or better known as a stream fish compared to LMB. Crayfish are usually more abundant or prevalent in streams compared to most static waters or pond waters. I've been told by a old wise hatchery man who reliably each year produces fingerling SMB that SMB reproduce best for him if they have a good diet of crayfish. SMB will live, grow well, and even reproduce on a very low diet of crayfish. They do it in a neighbor's pond.

Adding crayfish will not make the SMB harder to catch. In fact adding them and maintaining a good number of crays may make SMB easier to catch, because the SMB would be getting a frequent diet of crayfish and the bass would readily recognize them as food, especially the more vulnerable crayfish. Fish including bass will often feed on specific food items at the exclusion of other items.

One last interesting note. You mention Imlay City said they would have SMB fingerlings next fall. Don't put a lot of money on that promise. Often hatcheries get very poor spawn success from their SMB broodstock. One hatchery in IL had this year 3 ponds set up for SMB fingerling production for this fall. Not one fingerling was produced. Remember that wise old fish hatchery guy that I mentioned above, Imlay City and several other hatcheries including Zetts in PA, occassionally or often call him to buy SMB fingerlings. When his supply is low he does not sell his fingerlings to other hatcheries. Bottom line, hedge your bet and also check with or order from Laggis Fish Hatchery in Gobbles MI for SMB in fall of 2008. Laggis carries high quality perch and SMB, both trained to eat fish food.

I will do that. Maybe make a half order from each place and if both come through then great, if not at least one, hopefully, will.

Also, I have noticed that some hatcheries name "jumbo" perch and others just perch. Are they calling the same thing by different names, or do I need to be careful what I buy when purchasing perch?

After reading half of the pondboss magazine that I just recieved, with three back issues on the way, plus the perfect pond book, I realize I have a lot of reading to do. Good thing I find it interesting!

You're obviously taking a crash course in Pondmeistering.

Bill,
I was just reading through the whole thread again. Is having a combination of SMB and HSB possible, or would I need to choose one or the other? Do HSB reproduce? I like the idea of a larger, harder fighting fish, but are these something that are added and need to be restocked as they are fished out?

Thanks

I may be wrong, but I think that Jumbo Perch is just a sales gimmick type of thing; I believe they are the same as Yellow Perch. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe you can have SMB and HSB together. HSB should not reproduce. The success of having these fish together will depend on several factors such as if you feed, the strength and stability of your forage base, etc. Also important will be the size, depth, contour, and structure of your pond.

HSB are a put and take fish. Add them ,grow them to size, fish them down and add more. They work best with feeding pellets. IMO a pond with a feed trained population of YP , SMB and HSB would be terrific fishing. I would add some natural forage as well like FH , craws and GShiners.

Thanks guys.

I think I will add some HSB when it is appropriate, maybe fall 2008 with the SMB?

Bill,
Does Laggis have HSB as well? THe other question I had was regarding feed trained fish. If I don't plan to feed regularly, will they just adapt to eating FH when I am not pellet feeding?

Laggis no longer has HSB. He decided they were not a good fish for his goals. I don't think anyone in MI sells HSB. YOU will probably have to get them from Ohio.

If not feeding the fish pellets they will resort to natural foods. If you only feed the fish pellets occassionally they may not dependably eat the food. They are cratures of regular habits.

Keep in mind that with HSB you will have 3 predators SMB, HSB and perch. Perch have a high percentage of fish in their diet after the reach 6"-8". SMB will each year probably add some new fish whereas HSB will not. It could be easy for the pond to develop too many predators based on how many forage fish are present. Small fish as food shortages will cause slowed growth of increasing numbers of predators. Balance of predator and prey becomes important as predators reproduce, so predators keep growing well. Thinning the numbers of predators is almost always necessary to maintain adequate numbers of forage fish. The other option is to always add forage fish to try to maintaing adequate numbers of them. That gets you into a viscious cycle of adding forage fish to keep up with increasing numbers of predators.

Advice has been correct. Jumbo perch are yellow perch. Jumbo is a promo to make you think the perch are guaranteed to grow big. Just about all if not all hatchery fish in MI have the potential to grow to jumbo size. Rarely do hatcheries sell 10"-12" perch which are considered jumbo sized. Most perch will grow big if they get enough food.

If you just use FH as forage fish they will not last long after the first year if that long. I've seen many ponds where just perch alone without bass eliminate the FH. If you do not plan to feed the fish, I suggest that you first add FH and or shiners (spring) and wait till fall or the next year to add predators. I have used the option of add minnows and perch. Do not add SMB until the perch reproduced once and provided small perch for bass, then add bass. That worked okay in the few instances it was tried.

I am beginning to think that if I want to have large fish fast I am going to have to feed. I am wondering what feed costs and what one could expect to spend on feed a month for the size pond/fish that we are talking. I know I can get I timeable feeder and feed that way, but I am wondering what kind of investment this requires.

Also, if fish are fed pellets, does this make them harder to catch with rod and reel, or do you just put something on the hook that looks like pellets?

Is there no way that with a pond this size with an area of marsh that is at least double the pond that fatheads or golden shiners would be able to reproduce fast enough to keep up their population if I added enough to start? Or are they just not prolific enough of breeders?

Thanks for all the help with these questions, hope you aren't getting sick of me yet. I am just trying to absorb as much of this information as possible.

I hand feed BG, CC, HSB, 5 piggy GC, 6 feedtrained RES, and some extremely motivated (read "hungry" and "self-taught pellet feeders") LMB in my 0.9 acre pond. Last year I fed a roughly 50-50 mix of Purina GFC (32% protein, $16/50 pounds locally) and Purina Aquamax 600 (40% protein, $26/50 pounds locally). I feed kind of medium-heavy currently (about 2/3 what I fed earlier when I had more CC and was growing them up to eating size), last year a total of about 300 pounds for a toal feed cost of about $125.

Mechanical feeders run from maybe $75 on up to several hundred dollars. See discussion in the "feeding" section for more info - there is a considerable amount of differences in feeders and experience/opinions on them there.



Opinions on this vary greatly from species to species, pond (owner) to pond (owner), and fish to fish. My existing pond does not have a great deal of structure in it, and feeding has served very well to help concentrate fish at a specific place and time, making fishing easier for me (in addition to bulking up the fish - fat BG are easier and more rewarding to clean/eat than skinny BG!).

Withholding feed for a day or two before fishing can serve to improve catch rates in fed ponds. Some fishing geniuses here have developed a fair number of ways to place or mimic feed pellets on a hook, which is a great way to catch fish which are expecting their regular fish food dinner. See Pellet Deceptions.




FHM are quite prolific, but so small, slow, and awkward that juvenile bass and even adult sunfish can make an easy meal of them. They seldom last more than 2 years in a pond after predators are introduced. GSH are much larger, faster, and agile, but spawn only once a year. They last longer than FHM, but are usually wiped out a few years after bass come along.

Whether these two species are able to make a go of it with 2 acres of marsh to hide out in will be interesting to find out. There may be other forage species (not readily commmercially available) which may be able to maintain a permanent presence under these conditions. I am interested what Dr. Cornwell, Dr. Willis, Dr. Perca, and the other experts have to say about this.

Trider - Learning is good.

The marsh-wetland will be a tremendous help in providing refugia and production supply of small fish of all species to the pond. Shiners and FH are prolific. I reccommend both speices in your situation. I could recommend additional species but they are not available from hatcheries. The depth and openness of the connected marsh will determine how well fish can navigate through it and thrive. If the marsh is completely clogged, choked, and congested with plants the refugia benefit will be reduced based on fish's "navagitability". The marsh will probably be the main reason your pond is successful.

From your questions in another forum topic - mosquito fish will probably not do well in your situation; you're too far north for good winter survival of mosquito fish - Gambusia - they are a more southern speices. If you are very lucky a few may survive MI's harsh winters each year - but doubtful. If the pond builder has a backhoe at the site ask him to dip out a small deeper (3'-5' deep) hole in the marsh if it already does not have one. An area around 10x10 or 10x30 would be good. This would provide marsh habitat fish a small winter refuge and some open spaces for the open water season. What is the depths of the marsh?

You will not need to feed pellets and if you do not allow too many predators that would tend to overeat what food is available the fishery will remain in a relative balance where proper growth occurs. Obviously, if you do not have or allow very many predators the forage fish base will keep up to the consumption rate.

Bill,
I think it was Bob Lusk and your article on "trophics". Obviously with a new pond it shouldn't be a problem early, becoming eutrophic(correct term?) that is. Does feeding pellets increase the rate at which a pond would become eutrophic? Also, our pond site will be surrounded by large trees on about 60-65% of it shore. Obviously all the organic material will add to this process. Is there anything that can be done to slow stop the process or some type of fish/organism that can process all the organic material?

Also, what happens when you add a new pond to what I would guess is a relatively eutrophic marsh? Would the two be on the opposite sides of the trophic spectrum, and how does that interaction play out?

BTW, I got my three back issues of Pond Boss today, looking forward to the reading on male BG. Should probably get "The Perfect Pond" tomorrow. The only problem with this is that I will probably have them all done before going on vacation, so I will need to find something else to read on vacation. I guess there is always more back issues, any suggestions on specific issues? Hehe

You ask "Does feeding pellets increase the rate at which a pond would become eutrophic?" Answer is yes. Adding food to a system causes the fish /animal biomass to be greater. More fish produce more manure which results in more overall pond fertility. Adding any type of organic material such as tree leaves or windblown or watershed materials adds additional nutrients once the organics are decomposed and processed into basic nutrient elements. Nutrient accumulation almost always increases the overall eutrophic condition or status. Available nutrients in the system tend to fluxuate throughout the year, usu weekly-monthly.

"Is there anything that can be done to slow stop the process or some type of fish/organism that can process all the organic material?" Yes. There are several things. Bottom aeration that produces one to several pond water volume turnovers per day will keep the bottom water oxgenated which will allow thousand if not millions of various forms of invertebrate organisms and trillions of bacterial processors to flourish. All are responsible for relatively quick and clean decompostion of sedimented organic materials as opposed to loss of oxygen in the deep zone that results in very slow "dirty" decomposition that produces septic black conditions and accelerated internal nutrient recycling of phosphours which is the main factor in eutrophication. Very few fish if any are directly responsible for the consumption or breakdown of sedimented organic materials such as leaves, muck, and sludge. Bacteria and invertebrates still have to process fish manure.

At least some of the available nutrients can be absorbed and or tied up and make unavaiable to new plant growth. But unless these bound nutriets are perminantly bound or removed from the system, the nutrients can sometimes or often be recyled back into the pond system to grow a new set of plants.

The addition of some beneficial forms of microbial (bacterial) and enzyme additions may influence and increase the decompositonal rate and nutrient recycling in the bottom sludge layer depending on several conditions. Many forms of microbial or bacterial products are available. Buyer beware. The limited knowledge that I have of these products causes me to question if the additions are supplying any bacterial or enzyme substances that are not already present in most natural healthy settings. Often these additions can be beneficial in situations where herbicides or chemicals have been used that have compromized the natural bacterial flora. In these cases additions can help reseed or enhance the normal aerobic community (oxygen consumers). Thus without good pond mixing and a homogeneous water body (aeration) bacterial additions would have limited affects on the entire pond.

I don't think one can ever stop eutrophication, just slow it down to various degrees. Eutrophication is dependant on rate of nutrient increases. In some aggressive cases or methods eutriophication can be reversed and or slowed at least temporarily compared to previous input rates.

I suggest you take the things you have received and read so far and reread them on vacation. Rarely does one absorb everything on the first reading. Review is always good. When watching a movie two or three times one usually sees things missed in the first screening. With additional knowledge and perspective, this allows one to absorb more from the same material.

"Also, what happens when you add a new pond to what I would guess is a relatively eutrophic marsh?" It probably depends. I don't think there will be a lot of nutrient exchange between the marsh and the pond unless there is a major flow or current of water that moves from the marsh to the pond. It is possible that the marsh could contribute nutrients to the pond. But in most cases the marshes serve as a nurient sinks or nutrient deposition sites where nutrient movement is delayed, suppressed or stopped. Marshes and wetlands have very good benefits in nature.

Bill,
Thanks for all the great info. I always feel like a have asked a good question when I get a long response from you.

So bottom aeration seems like something that should be done if at all possible for the overall health of the pond. I will be doing a search on that shortly, but do windmill aerators work sufficiently? I would be looking for something that is not electrically powered but effective.

I will definitely be re-reading everything. I have already re-read this whole thread a couple times and definitely found things that I missed the first time around. And I have reread parts of your "trophics" article already.

Thanks again for everyones help.

Trider - Pond aeration will take a lot more effort for your pond management learning curve. Lots to know about aeration. Windmill aerators work, but not real well in larger water bodies (0.5ac+), and do not work at all when there is no wind which can at times be long enough periods for your pond to restratify. The other thing about windmills is to be sure that the site has very good exposure to the wind from 2prevailing wind directions and better 3 or 4 directions. I seen windmills installed where tree line blocked 50% or more of the wind action. Poor planning and a waste money in my opinion. Do a search of windmills on the forum - lots of previous discussions about them. You have a lot to learn about proper aeration techniques and principles. I will not repeat very much of it here.

Bottom line in my opinion a 1/4hp rotary vane compressor with a good small pore diffuser will move about 10 times more water per hour than the typical pond windmill at top production. Another benefit of an electric compressor is it can produce air and water circulation when there is no wind which could be the difference between life and death to your fish. Windmills now cost about twice as much as a decent 1/4hp electric aerator.

In your location and planned application, I would make an effort to get electric installed at the building site. If you do not plan to build on the site within 2-3 yrs then at least consider your options of using a windmill to circulate the pond until you can build at the site then install an electric compressor and move the windmill diffuser to the deeper portion or section of the marsh to keep that area open in winter. You will need to take provisions with winter operation of the windmill to prevent freeze up of the airline due to water backflow from the diffuser and condensate in airline from the compressed air.

Back in a few hrs, I have a commitment.

We have electric out there already, but it is probably 800 linear feet away, and no plans of putting it closer until we build a house, which will be at least a few years.

Can a pond be healthy without aeration? I am assuming that natural ponds not having aerators and they seem to get by. Do aerators just help? If I wait until we build a house when electricity will be closer will the pond be fine? Also, I have seen a bit on solar aerators, are they at all effective?

Thanks Bill, and everyone, I can't tell you how much I appreciate having experts address your questions here.

A pond can be healthy without aeration but at a lower productive rate (carrying capacity or standing stock). Aeration becomes more important as the pond ages or as fish #s/weight nears carrying capacity or as fertility increases due to fish size/growth, feeding pellets or fertilization or due to water quality constraints. While the pond probably can be managed well enough to "be fine" for a few years no one can be sure of what will happen as there are way too many variables.

ewest has a good description of the need for aeration for a new pond. In your case the elevated amount of annual tree leaf input would be your main concern for the initial need for aeration. Since the pond will be new, you should be able to get by without aeration for the first 1-3 yrs without major irreparable damage. The factors that ewest mentions will be most impacted by not aerating. Ponds in SE MI go for a lot longer than that without being aerated. It is just their average annual carrying capacity of fish tends to be lower and accumulation rates of organic materals tend to be greater than ponds that are aerated. Winter kill is also a problem in those non-aerated ponds with high organic inputs, esp. older ponds.

Back to types of aeration, the cost of a windmill aerator is now fairly high ($1200-$1600) compared to around the yr 2000. One can purchase a top of the line rotary vane 1/4hp compressor and equip it with do-it-yourself basic manilfold and filter features for around $365-$400. Common airline is 1/2" black poly non-potable waterline that delivers air from the pump underground and underwater to the diffuser. Diffusers with check valve can be homemade ($10-$25) or purchased commercially ($50-100). Top end cost for a do-it-yourself electric aerator is around $600 compared to a windmill of $1400-$1600. Thus twice the cost for abt 10 less air and air is only produced during windy conditions. My windmill on my back pond often spins but produces no air bubbles until the wind speed exceeds 5-7mph. Diffuser boil from a slower wind speed also results in a smaller water boil / circulation compared to a windy (15-25mph) situation.

Trider, in your smaller 2/3 ac pond in SE MI you should only have to run your aerator 6-10 hrs per day thus saving money compared to 24/7 operaton. Contact me for mor info when you are ready for advice of do-it-yourself aeration. Northern pondowners with cool water ponds can get by with less than constant aeration. Completely mix your pond once or twice a day and that should be adequate in a new northern pond vs eutrophic pond ecosystem.

Do you have the MSU Extension booklet about Managing Sportfishing Ponds in MI?. If not, try to get one from any MSU University extension office. They are cheap and pretty informative for small northern water bodies. Our "pond Boss philosophy" does vary somewhat from some of the info in the booklet. Their reccomendations have to be applicable to MI as a state rather than suggestions for individuals.

Solar powered aerators would be good but currently are quite expensive. Solar applications will be getting more efficient in the future. Remember that solar will not work when it is cloudy. For ponds on the borderline of eutrophic-hypereutrophic a few cloudy days can much more quickly produce summerkill conditions without whole pond circulation.

800 feet is not too far to locate the air pump where you currently have electric and pipe the compressed air to the pond.

Theo is correct. However in your situation, consider if you plan to build and will be putting an out building within a 100' or so from the pond, then installing an aerator at that time should be sufficient. But if the fishery is of utmost concern as opposed to casual desire, then look into installing 3/4" dia non-potable pipe as an air delivery line for 800' from pump to pond, plus there will be another approx 100' underwater 1/2" pipe.

You can also look at it this way. With no aeration, this causes lower average fish capacity. Lower fish capacity imparts less DO stress to the pond during ice/snow cover. Lower DO stress results in less chance of winter kill. Numerous things affect how much less stress.

OK, finally meeting with the pond guy on Sunday. RE Owens dredging.

http://www.pondexperts.com/index.html

From their site and talking to him, our situation is right up their alley.

What should I be asking? Other than the obvious, price, time frame, references, ability to make fish structure, placing spoils(my biggest concern). I am sure I am missing important issues.

PLEASE HELP!

Always, my MAIN concern is what happens if he produces a leaker? How much water loss has to commonly occur before he will come back and try to repair leakage?. How does he define a leaking pond? Get his promise in his contract.

For reference and for an idea of a pond as good as it gets, a well sealed, well compacted, core trench, dug out pond built in good hard clay in NW Ohio typically looses about 12" water maximum during dry spells between our climatic rains. Ponds in our area that typically go down more than that are leaking water due to seepage. Leaking ponds in our area will typically loose 2-3 ft of water during dry spells. Water table ponds (no core trench) in our area will go down up to 5-6 ft, some even more.

If at all possible, you do not want a leaky pond.

That is my main concern. Most everything else can be worked around and negotiated.

Other than that read Lusk's book Perfect Pond.. for suggestions. Others here may provide additonal advice.

Thanks Bill,
Especially for the numbers, I would assume that those numbers would be close for me as I can't be that far from you. I will definitely make sure to address that.

I read the Perfect Pond book. Good reading, although I found a lot of it to be specific to building a dam and creating a pond that way, whereas I will be having a pond dug out of a marsh area with probably 100 to 115 acres draining to this area. There will be some water in it while it is being dug, then waiting for rain/water table to fill it up. All this snow we have had should help with both.

Thanks, if anyone else thinks of anything I would appreciate it.