Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site New pond construction costs

Hey, ya'll....I'm the new guy on the block and looking forward to perusing the nearly infinite collection of helpful input. I am in the first stages of constructing a 5 acre pond in the midwest. It is located in the midst of fairly heavy hard-woods; the timber is probably avg 30 years old with some 50-60's occassionally. I am very comfortable with my excavator; is well known in the community, done many ponds in the area, and spent 8 years in the local NRCS office 15 years ago. His work quality and attention to detail are already evident. When I hired him, it was early summer and the trees and bushes made it impossible to really see what was ahead (except for USGS aerials and topo's), so a firm project quote was not possible. He is billing me $100 hour per pc equipment; using dozer and a track hoe (and earth mover to clean up scrappy waste at end of clearing process). We are just at the end of the clearing process and based on my estimations, I figger we are in the $14-15K range. This includes burning all the waste and burying the root balls. I know that there was no screwing off and trust him. I spent a couple of days just hanging around; it just seems to be so darn time-consuming, one tree at a time. Anyway, I need feed-back to the cost per acre to clear fairly thick timber (in dry conditions) based on today's (2005) costs to run heavy equipment.

Brettski,

In my area, you can hire someone to "rake" which means clear brush, pile it and burn it, for about $200 per acre. This includes, as you say, stump removal and disposal. It takes a fairly large dozer to accomplish that...plus I'm talking about large tracts, 100 acres and above, so may not be a good comparison.

Another comparison, I can hire track-hoe for about $90 per hour, and dozers for around $70 per hour depending on size (including operator)..delivery and removal charges extra on the track-hoe also, and that cost me about $400 recently for one job. Hope this helps, but comparisons that far apart geographically may not be the best.

I kind of hate to mention this too late in the game, but if I was putting a pond in "heavy hard-woods," I would seriously look into having it logged off first.

Meadowlark, this work would be considerably more difficult since it requires working with thick trees that are about 80 -90 feet tall, one after the other....that, combined with the regional cost differences will create an "apples and oranges" comparison, I fear. Thanks.
Theo, I had a logging company site inspector come in and look it over....he told me to call him in 20 - 30 years. The only mature stuff was too few to make it worth the logging investment. He did say that it would have decent firewood value, but I ultimately nixed that idea due to a number of logistical restraints that are too detailed to discuss.

The cost per hour is really dependent on the size and age of the equipment. Some of the newer D6's will do more than an old time D8. I can get an almost new D6 on my land for about $100 per hour, with operator. Or at least I could with lower diesel prices. If he using older equipment or anything less than a newer model D6, turn around leave without bending over.

If you had it checked out Brettksi, at least you know you didn't miss the opportunity.

Hi-track D6 work in my area went for $85/hr
before diesel prices skyrocketed. Older D8's
went for the same, and I've had trackhoe work
done for $125/hr. I'm thinking that your $100/hr
charge is not out of line. I had a pond built
a couple of years ago that required significant
tree clearing and an enormous amount of dirt
work with a price tag of $20,000.

Thanks for the help, Theo.....
Dave and Squeeky, the dozer is a '96 hi track D6 with an 11' blade; the track hoe is a '90'ish Cat, not quite as new but in terrific shape. This guy takes real good care of his equipment. He said that he had to raise his $90/hour from last year to $100 this year, mostly for obvious reasons. The dozer rocks, the track hoe is needed for precision plucking to minimize collateral damage, particularly at the perimeter. The real dance, tho, is both of them together....it's like Astaire and Rogers. I can't complain too much about their efficiency, I just hate big bux when it's new to me. Remember, tho, that I have not begun pushing dirt for the pond or dam. To this point, I have a perfectly bald and shaven site with a slightly extended perimeter to push back the treeline and create a place to waste dirt creating a shoreline. After this phase, I don't know what to expect at "dirt-pushing" time.

I am in final stages of a 5a "bottom land" pond with smaller trees cleared, and nearing $70k. This includes 2 islands, 2 1'x80' drainage pipes, an emergency spillway, and lined in 2'+ of clay. A large peninsula for fishing and a beach for swimming were nice additions. I used 8 55 gal. drums, 5 pallet condos, 4 large tractor tires, and 8 1200# round bales of haygrazer for structure. Needing clay for a building pad we ended up 20' in places. Lots of cuts and dropoffs, fish channels throughout. Will try and post pictures when wife returns next week. My cost were a little high due to a change of contractors.

ahvatsa.....
Yikes! $70k! I better not push anywhere near half that. My guy told me at the beginning that, as an average/rule of thumb, an average pond will come in complete at $5k - 7k per acre, m/l. He is very familiar with the land in my area and felt confident at the low side of this range. My advantage: major clay at 3 - 5 feet below natural grade, surrounding well records (I pulled them fromt the DNR website b4 land purch) show 30 ft thick layer. My disadvantage: the site I chose is a very gradual bowl shape, the majority will be dug (removing 2 - 3 feet) to avg 7 feet deep (9-10 ft center of bowl), sloping to the dam at about 13 - 14 ft. The other concern is that I am only working with about 40-50 acres of drainage, mostly farm land filtering thru the timber surrounding the pond.

Brettski, Sounds like good equipment with a good operator. Hope he can do it for $5k per acre. I expect he will.

Brettski,

You mentioned that your contractor has done other ponds in the area. Why not call on some of these pond owners to see what their costs were.

Sounds like a great project, keep us posted on the results.

Just for an offset, I was bid 23K for my 1.5a pond. Both contractors bid ponds by the yard, and both bid $1 per yard to dig the dirt and haul it away.

Trees would have been extra, probably $60-$75 per hour.

One of the frustrating things about pond building is there is no template, or model to pattern. Each site is different. I have seen an eight acre lake cost $6,000 and a six acre one cost $32,000. But, there is a template to get an idea of what it should cost, for your site. The more planning you do, the more accurate cost projections will be.
The world is full of honest earthmovers, making a fair living. As expert as they are, it's incumbent on the landowner to guide the contractor, not vice-versa. In order to do that, the landowner must know as much as possible about the project, before any dirt is moved.
With dense trees and brush with harsh slopes, it should cost as much as $1,000-1,500 per acre for clearing, tops. Normally, clearing runs $150-400 per acre.
Brettski, you mentioned it wasn't possible to get an estimate. I certainly appreciate the degree of difficulty for your project, but today's advanced technology allows us to make projections which weren't available several years ago. Even as inaccurate as gps can be, you should be able to get an approximation of the amount of clearing to be done, beforehand. Also, designers and engineers can accurately calculate the length, width and height your dam should be. That creates an idea how much dirt needs to be moved above the ground. With some test holes, designers can give you an idea how big a core trench needs to be, and how much dirt should be moved below ground.
Then, using gps or a laser transit, flag the shoreline, to determine the configuration of the lake. At that time, you can see how much shallow water you will have, what the bottom will look like, and how much work needs to be done to provide habitat.
You didn't mention your goals, so it's tough to guide you beyond these tips.
The hourly rate for the equipment is fair. It sounds like you have reputable people working for you.
What's missing, to me, is a projected plan. You guys are building a lake by the day, by the hour, making decisions on the fly, because it seems, you think that's the best way for this site.
If I am you, the next thing I do is get the NRCS out there, or an engineer, to stake the dam site. Have the excavator dig a few test holes to look at soils below the ground. The kind of dirt you have helps dictate how (and how much) to build the dam. Once you know dam size, your designer can project costs.
Last, but not least, keep in mind several things. You are not only building a dam, you are building a lake. A dam is a water management structure, a lake is a habitat teeming with life. It's your job to make sure the habitat matches your goals. Decisions you are making now will impact that environment for a minimum of four generations beyond you. And, two or three years from now, when you are in a boat, enjoying the serenity, you don't want to look around and say to yourself, "I wish I had done it differently."

Now that's the kind of advise you won't find anywhere else! Great Post Bob!
Brettski, & anyone building or thinking of building a pond should take heed!

I would like to add one thing. When most of us build our ponds, we generally spend the most we can afford for the biggest pond we can buy. "If" by chance we have a handful of cash in our pockets, many years down the line, what could I do now to make renovations easier in the future ? Think about your original layout if there's a chance you could expand in the future.

Bob,
Tunza thanx for the square input. I like to believe that I am not "working on the fly" as much as it comes off to be. In the course of 4 years looking through the midwest for "pond-able" property, I had the distinct pleasure to work with about 8 different NRCS offices that spent virtually hours teaching me and lending me knowledge. I laugh to think that I know just enough to be dangerous. Before I bought the property, I was already in touch with the NRCS office securing soil maps and input. The unfortunate part is that out of all the NRCS offices that I had worked with up to that point, this one lacked considerably....numerous reasons, all pointing to potential issues with communication and reliable support. My contractor worked in this same office 15 years ago as the conservation dept officer for 8 years. This, combined with superior references from locals, made my choice easy. Yes, I got a lower bid, but they did not talk-the-talk. You can read a "pond-wizard" when he starts whipping out details like my choice did. He addressed all the details that I had been learning about over 4 years of OTJ training during my search. He is still connected with the local NRCS office, and can/did use them for the details that he needed to handle the engineering. He told me to feel free to have them handle the entire project; no problem with him. Because of my lousy feeling about the potential of trying to work with them, tho, I opted to allow my contractor to over-see the engineering. I am very hands-on and spent alot of time shooting elevations and marking water levels and perimeters. It has been an enjoyable learning experience and I am not disappointed (to date). This is my baby, my biggest project.
The only issue I have is the cost, and quite frankly I doubt that I have a lot of room to cry. I based my projections for clearing timber on what I learned during research, and at $80/hour equipment cost (a cheaper region that I researched), I was told to expect about $1500 per acre. Bumping up to $100/hour equip time, I figured on $1800/acre to clear. He used a D-6 hi track dozer (found out the blade is 12' wide) and a track hoe excavator. I just got the news today...it cost $15,000; cleared, burned, scavenged for roots and clean and smooth as a whistle. It really is beautiful work. I am guesstimating the entire area to be about 5.5 acres. That figures at $2700/acre. I was present for at least half of the work, and truly trust this guy. When I discuss the apparent loss of efficiency, he explains: The timber that I have is relatively young. It is not one big tree, move 15 or 20 feet and get the next one. It is remove one young tree, the next one is 5 feet away in all directions. It becomes a "number of trees" equation, not an acreage equation. His assessment of the timber is accurate. It is one 6" - 8" dia x 80' tall tree after the other. They are so closely spaced that the weeds don't grow under the canopy they create. The only other explanation I can imagine is another obvious one....would it have been more efficient to have 2 dozers and a backhoe....or even 2 dozers and the backhoe on occassion for precision removal at the perimeter. He did run one dozer and one backhoe for equal time. I must say, tho, the the backhoe is also pretty darn important in creating and maintaining the burn-pile, so I don't see how it can be struck from the equipment arsenal.
At this point, I must note that this is a 2-phase project. We are fully cleared and will wait until next summer/fall to build the dam and complete.
For the record, we had one of our extensive and comprehensive discussions regarding what is done and where we are going. I asked him what he thought it would take to bring the project to completion, particularly since I have already told him how much dirt I want to move and what water depths we are going to achieve. Now that the big picture is exposed and VERY clear, I need a firm contractual commitment based on the specified dimensional criteria. He is going to work it up, but shot for the hip: based on a 4.5 - 5 acre water surface, about $3000 per acre to finish. He will make a firm offer and also monitor equipment time. If the equipment time comes in under the firm offer, he will charge me the lesser. Long and short, on this 5 acre pond project, we are at about $30k. All in all, I suppose this isn't horrible. He does very nice work. I am prepared to get what I pay for....I just don't want to pay for it.
P.S. to all else in the forum, thanx for the props.

"The world is full of honest earthmovers, making a fair living. As expert as they are, it's incumbent on the landowner to guide the contractor, not vice-versa."

Exactly why I had to dismiss my first contractor! My wife and I would meet and discuss our "projected plan" and 3-4 days later we would see HIS VERSION and hear his excuses. That was a great post and having experienced what you conveyed I must agree it is of the upmost importance. I have had 2 earthmovers come and bid jobs, get the sight really torn up, only to "bump" the price. They didn't know each other and lived 400 miles apart. It seems they get a price locked in and either want more $ or start cutting corners! I now have a reliable honest earthmover and am totally satisfied with his work and price. With both contractors, my wife and I presented our goals and contractor #1 just did his own thing. Actually, at one point, found myself wondering who owned this ranch...
Again great post Bob.
Eastland, I am proud of my design where I can add 2-3a to it at a later date. I did hire and consult with two designer\engineers and our NCRS agent spent a day with me, and only after 100+ hours of research, mostly on this sight, did I proceed.
Brettski, I am dealing with almost 200a drainage. I will say this, when it finally fills and you see it for the first time, it is an awesome experience!
My advice is when your desires aren't met, DON'T hesitate to change contractors. Best of luck to you... already maping out my next pond for the spring.

I am thankful for Pond Boss for presenting the opportunity to share experiences and learn.

Brettski, I hear you, completely. Been there, done it many times. Sounds like you have done mucho homework, and are dealing with fair and honest people. Keep in mind, though, they are still spending your hard earned dollars, not theirs.
I still see a red flag with your project. And, without a firm understanding of your goals, I may be off base a bit.
"Pretty" doesn't count under water. Most earthmovers take pride in ponds which look like Jessica Simpson's skin...smooth. Smooth, to a fish, is like the Sahara desert. Eliminating all the trees, collecting all the roots, burying the stumps, to me, is partly unnecessary. My next word of caution to you is to pay attention to "pretty" and avoid it below the water line. That's one of those things which can push the costs way above the pain threshold.
Pour your concern to making sure the lake is built as nice as the dam. I hear your comments about projecting hard costs to finish. While that's important, you must be the guy to define "finish." If you get to the end of the money and your vision doesn't match the contractor's vision, you will have a conflict. I have seen it over and over. Look at the dam as following a blueprint, but creating the lake as art. Your interpretation of art must match the artists ability to put in on the canvas you will call your lake. It will be a shame if you have to decide the painting is finished because you ran out of paint.

Bob,
Ya know, it seems in life that no matter how much homework one does with his books, it always happens differently on the streets. You are right; I have been soaking it up like a sponge. Such is life, tho, that you never stop learning and that is why I am so pleased to have come across Pond Boss....what a great grad-school.
The red flag you see is a good call and already on my hit-list. Quite frankly, it is one of the main reasons that I am excited to get involved with Pond Boss. I didn't want to bore everyone with the peripheral details of my project, but now that we have discussed in that direction, I will explain further.
The pond is part of larger development of about 40 acres of timber. It took me 4 years to find "the right one"....decent timber, pond-able, reasonably close to home, and affordable. It will be our vacation home, week-ends, and eventually retirement(?). Phase one of this project actually started before clearing the pond area...it required building a 2000 ft driveway (the main block of property is land-locked except for an 1100 ft x 100 ft wide owned access to the county road, 1/2 of which is meadow). The same excavator did the driveway. Results: outstanding! V cool. We spent a number of hours walking potential routes, him telling me why the ridge is better and the valley isn't....and....me telling him that I want to save that big ole Maple and Walnut tree, so let's go this way. Ultimately, we both agreed on a route, executed the plan, and it is like driving into a nice state campground. I am thrilled. I got to watch him during the 2 days that he and his pal used the dozer and backhoe in symphony to create this path, and it bacame obvious his sense of "surgery"....the collateral damage to surrounding trees was way below minimal...nearly non-existant. This was critical for me, because I used it to gauge him for the big project; he passed with and "A"....so....back to the pond.
We stopped after clearing the pond area for two reasons: a) cash flow b)"a" will cause us to take 8-9 months to think, think, and think. You see, we will have to clear for a building site. I determined the water level based on a draw that runs up on the neighboring property, and the result was a depth that works well with the entire project. No, it ain't gonna be 20 feet deep....I knew that when we bought it. It's shape is kinda like a skeleton keyhole, the squarish part of the keyhole is the two opposing hills that create the dam (absolutely ideal topo for a dam). The larger, round part of the keyhole is a 3-4 acre basin and the area for the homesite. Ah yes, the homesite. The plan is to clear for the homesite in next year's phase 2; there are quite a few thicker/more mature trees in the target area and they will be used for fish structure. There should be ample supply.
Now, finally, the red flag that we have both identified. As mentioned, it is the first reason that I am here. I am not a fisher-guy (awkward, sorry), but I could be and I have alot of pals that are. That combined with the value of a well maintained fish pond and the challenge of making this new "hobby" work have me sharply focused on how to shape and carve the "Sahara Desert" that I currently have. Enter Pond Boss and P-B posters. The beauty of clearing to slightly beyond the waterline: it will allow me to see the blank canvas as a whole, without ruining any options that I have to make it my masterpiece. I now have about 8 months to gather my paints, set up my easal, and think about what landscape portrait to produce. My contractor has some helpful fish input, but I am going to continue to take the reins, particulary in shaping the bottom. I know now that what we agree on will happen...this based on my experiences to date.
Yes, I want a firm $ commitment from him. It helps me to see the big $ picture. Likely, tho, his fair option of $/hour will be the billing method in the end.
So there stands the red flag....I am ready, teachers. Please energize bottom-scape -101.
Thanx
Bski

Brettski:

Here's how it worked for me. NRCS engineered the damn, provided drawings and volume estimates for contractors to follow. This included spec's for overflow pipe, dimensions for emergency spillway, and in the case of the first pond, for the hydrant below the dam. Slope of dam not to exceed 3:1, all other areas not to exceed 4:1 until 6(?) feet of depth reached. Those were the things I would have had no idea even to ask for. NRCS was a fount of knowledge. I was able to point out to them where I wanted depth increased, and how much.

These plans were given to 3 contractors who provided bids. These were firm bids, i.e. the amount they would build that pond for, to those specs. I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing it any other way. I needed to know how much the project was to cost, as I was essentially borrowing the money from the gov't, albeit in the form of an interest free loan. I still had to be able to make the payment.

First pond wasn't "exactly" like this, as we had a max limit...I was to get as much pond as possible for the $7100 NRCS had in the budget.

Second pond, however, was EXACTLY this scenario. "Here's what I want. How much will you charge to build it for me?" That's where the NRCS prints were beneficial. They gave all bidders the same gameplan. No fudging. The two that I've used are very different in their approaches, but both understood how this works. Very few people around here build with no gov't assistance, so the contractors are all familiar with NRCS and their rules.

Matt,
I will freely admit that I made a conscious decision to not get NRCS involved when I started this project. This decision actually flies in the face of my better judgement, particulary since I was SOOOO impressed with the service that I received from numerous other offices during my property search. If it had not been for my contractor's background and history as the NRCS CD agent in this same county, his strong reputation as a pond contractor, his obvious knowledge and communication skills...and...the lousy feeling I got during the 4 or 5 times that I did communicate with the local NRCS CD agent, I would have brought the NRCS office on board right from the beginning. I didn't....but that doesn't mean that I still won't. I knew this was going to be a 2 phase thing, and that any damage I created during phase one was going to be put on hold anyway, giving me a chance to "adjust". It also gives me a chance to adjust contractors, should there be a need. Ultimately, I am thrilled with the results so far. The cost was the only thing that kinda hit be on the back of the head...maybe I'm too cheap? I had referrals so I knew going into it that this guy was not going to be the cheapest, but nobody beats the service and the quality. This is exactly what occurred; I paid a little more and have zero regrets. Heck, for all I know, his rates are right on the money as an average...? Mr Lusk's points are well taken, valid, and are indeed on my list....your's too. The word is that there is a brand new CD agent in the NRCS office. I plan to reach out and re-attempt dialogue. My first and foremost reason for the pond is a beautiful, tranquil water feature. The opportunity to create a fish habitat is a nice bonus, though it was not the original goal. I do know one thing...now is the time to do it right. I have about 8 or 9 months to work out the kinks.

Brettski,

I wouldn't sweat the costs much. It may be a little high, but so what? Twenty or thirty years from now, you will not remember or care in the least about the costs, but you will dang sure remember if you have a poor quality product that did not meet your needs.

Far better to pay for it once, than pay and pay and pay to get it right. Keep your eye on your objective, find the money, do it right, and you won't be sorry.

Meadowlark,
I hear ya...and this is way too big a deal to pull a punch in the first round to lose the fight later. I want to take that same attitude for all facets of the project, including pursuing the NRCS assistance. So far, I read this as a classic "you get what you paid for" scenario. I repeat, I am thrilled with the results so far. I just talked with my bro in the U.P. of Mich; he built a 3.5 Ac pond in the woodland flats and it took about $33K about 5 years ago. This included clearing alot of timber and a pond that averages 6 - 7 feet. Moral of the story; as Bob Lusk says, each case is unique...there is no hard and fast formula. So, when I came across this forum, it showed up just in time for me to "bone up" on preparations for the real artistry.

Brettski,

Don't be surprised if the NRCS leads you nowhere...or worse, astray

Some guys have had good luck with them. I have not. It all depends on your local area and the peoples' competence in that location.

Enjoy the journey as you pursue your objective.