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#101881 11/12/07 01:51 PM
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I have a 3/4 acre pond, 10 ft deep, built Mar 2006, filled slowly until Jan 2007 when full. Recently stocked with 500 CNBG (1-3") and 150 RES (1-3") in Oct 2007. Have been feeding a very small pellet feed since then. Been noticeing some larger "splashes" in the 4-6 ft water area as feed floats out. Decided to finally fish with small hooks/worms yesterday, and caught these (actually caught two more that were about 1/2 this size)

What type of fish are these, and should I be concerned ? Plan on adding 75 LMB in June next year, so don't want anything to disrupt CNBG growth.

Fish 1


Fish 2



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Those are green sunfish. Any chance your fish guy didn't have a pure supply?


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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These would be way too big to have been just put in 1 month ago. All of those were real little. I got my fish from Overton Fisheries, and none in the bag were noticeably larger than the others. I figure they came in from birds/ducks feet. There are no streams or lake overflows nearby. My pond has high banks so it gets no run-off. I top it off with well-water or it catches rain water.


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Yeah, you're right. If they came from Overton I guarantee there weren't any unwanted tag-a-longs.

Green sunfish show up everywhere, and I'm still not entirely comfortable with the explanations that I regularly hear. Very interesting, and why does it always seem to be greenies and not some other fish showing up unexpectedly?


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Should I not release the ones I catch, or will the 500 CNBG overrun these guys ? Or just accept that even if I get rid of these few, that more will appear in the future...afterall...these got here.


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FWIW, our general consensus on GSF is that they are either a manageable problem or a non-problem. Worst case with GSF would be a pond where they have been the only (or the far-and-way dominant) species for some time, and have taken up virtually all the pond's available biomass with little stunted Greenies. One can manange one's way out of even that scenario successfully (without renovating).

In your case, they have a year (at most) head start on your CNBG. The Coppernose will out reproduce them, the bass will eat them (first, probably, since they are slenderer than CNBG), and, for your own personal information, they taste just like BG. Some of our PMs here operate or strive for trophy GSF ponds, and they wouldn't consider them any kind of problem.

P.S. Check out some of the threads on GSF (looking under "Jeff has a pond" would be a good start) and that should help you decide whether or not to pursue your GSF with extreme prejudice.

P.P.S. What are your management goals for the pond?

Last edited by Theo Gallus; 11/12/07 02:41 PM. Reason: Forgot the Greg Grimes question

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Goals are to have a good crop of 3-5 lb LMB, decent size CNBG for kids catch/release, and want to add approx 25 6-8" HSB next Oct. Not striving to create any "trophy" breed of fish, just want it to be fun w/o making it a science project: challenge of hunting LMB and the fun of quick catch CNBG. I have lots of structure/hiding spots in pond. FHM have already reproduced since Oct.


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I bet you end up with larger GSF that are also fun for the kids to catch (and maybe not release).


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For some reason I keep thinking "hybrid swarm" when I read this thread. \:o



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As a general matter I agree but note the following. Stocking any type of fingerling fish into a pond with adult GSF (which those are) is not a good idea. That includes BG or LMB or RES. While the BG can out-reproduce GSF the first BG have to survive in numbers high enough to establish a GROWING population and within the carrying capacity of the pond. That is far from assured when GSF are there ahead of time as in a year they can reach near carrying capacity of the pond. The idea that BG can easily take over is IMO an incorrect assumption. There is a good bit of data where that did not occur and GSF remained the dominant population and in fact kept BG numbers very low and suppressed LMB reproduction to almost 0. I would suggest you take out all the GSF you can and add some 4-5in CNBG in the spring (30). Keep in mind that in a crowded environ with BG and GSF #s out of balance you may get HBG (BG X GSF) with their pluses and minuses. There is a sound biological basis for negative attitude of fisheries scientists and pond managers toward GSF (stunting , swarming and predation) as a general proposition. GSF Association or not the truth of the GSF swarm is a fact in many locations. Truth is an absolute defense.



We chose adult largemouth bass and

green sunfish as predators because these are known

predators of fingerling largemouth bass (Carlander

1977).



Observers noted that both green sunfish and

adult largemouth bass preyed on the stocked fingerlings,

as anticipated. Predators were typically

very aggressive and often actively attacked

stocked fish. Fish stocked without habituation appeared

disoriented upon release and were often

eaten within minutes of release.


FWIW in this series of AFS studies predation up to 75%+ in 24 hours of the stocked small fingerling LMB was observed.





Last edited by ewest; 11/12/07 03:41 PM.















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If archer has good numbers of GSF could he consider adding adult LMB now? Even if it was a small number of adult LMB wouldn't they spawn this spring eliminating the need to buy fingerling LMB later? I'm thinking that normally you need to wait for the forage to develop before adding LMB, but in this case the forage seems to be present already.



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GW as Theo noted there are ways to manage through the situation. One way is to keep adding adult BG and some adult LMB. Adding adult LMB now is an option but not an easy one to gauge. Any option has its risk especially where the current status of the population of GSF is unknown. The 2 big unknowns in adding adult LMB now are the effective forage available for the LMB over the next 2-3 years and their ability to successfully reproduce (meaning to establish offspring to adulthood) in the presence of a GSF swarm (this would apply to a BG swarm as well).

The ability of a species to dominate a system is not widely written about but is a proven fact. BG and GSF can cause LMB to abandon all attempts to reproduce. GShad have been noted to suppress all other fish activity in a system including feeding and reproduction. LMB can stunt and wipe out all other species. There are other examples also. Such is not a typical event in large water bodies (so not much emphasis is found in the written materials) but IMO becomes a higher risk the smaller the water body.



Last edited by ewest; 11/12/07 04:21 PM.















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Archer,

Your problem may not be as bad as you think. Greenies are active feeders and good biters, so you may only have a few in there making you think it's a bunch. Keep catching them and throwing them out, and I bet you will soon get a feel for how many you have.

Good luck!

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Is there anyway to determine an approx GSF count ? It took about 1 hr to catch 4 fish. I see hundreds of small, small fish in the shallows which I believe are new FHM. If I had a large population of GSF wouldn't most of the baby FHM be gone ? It may sound cruel, but I could eliminate all the fish and start over. I am only in for about $350 for CNBG, RES, and FHM. I would rather start over now than after LMB/HSB are added. It would get expensive selectively adding larger CNBG or LMB, and for a newbie the balancing act would be tough. Also, if the LMB do not spawn, then whats the point !!!

Appreciate everyones thoughts, and please continue to debate.


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I would keep fishing and taking them out. I would also buy an inexpensive fish trap and sort out the GSF. That should be enough. Adult BG are not that much more than 2in stockers. 4-5 in adult CNBG should be no more than $1.00 each. Get Todd to bring 30 mixed adults when he brings the LMB.

Last edited by ewest; 11/12/07 10:07 PM.















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Maybe It's just me but if I found green sunfish in any of my ponds I'd first get so depressed I'd have to take antidepressants and then drain and rotenone the pond! \:\) I hate those little *&^%$.

But then I'm not fond of the bluegill green sunfish hybrid monstrosities either.

I've never seen a fish pond with either one that impressed me much. All the ones with green sunfish were overrun with them.

I'll bet anything somebody planted some of those and thought they were doing you a favor. Finding out they screwed up they won't admit doing it. Or they were tresspassing, fishing with live bait, and dumped a bait bucket that had greenies in it.





Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 11/12/07 10:18 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Back in July of 2007 when we were getting lots of rain, I noticed 2 dead fish just behind the low spot of the bank due to high water. They were about the size of a thumb (2-2.5"). I was out here almost every day while building the house, and the pond is in the middle of other large acreage tracts -- mostly real tall grass, with only a few neighbors (none closer than 300 yds). There is one other pond nearby that a guy uses for watering his horses, never been stocked or fished. Living in S. Houston there are lots of bayous for drainage, and a constant supply of ducks, pelicans, and other birds at the pond.

I will fish every day after work and keep count of how many I catch in what period of time. Will take all that I catch over to the bayou/creek about 3 miles away (downstream).


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 Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Maybe It's just me but if I found green sunfish in any of my ponds I'd first get so depressed I'd have to take antidepressants and then drain and rotenone the pond! \:\) I hate those little *&^%$.


HERESY!




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 Originally Posted By: Bruce Condello
Green sunfish show up everywhere, and I'm still not entirely comfortable with the explanations that I regularly hear. Very interesting, and why does it always seem to be greenies and not some other fish showing up unexpectedly?


Recent studies have indicated that GSF are the most intelligent of the sunfish and have mastered the art of optomizing public transportation.


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Well I'm no expert, just a bean counter that practices pond mismanagement. Here are my observations on my pond (results may not be typical, your results may vary, check with your physician before beginning any GSF regiment):

The GSF did not reduce LMB reproduction. When I seined my pond I had huge numbers of LMB fry in fact they out numbered GSF fry significantly.

GSF alone were unable to provide enough forage to sustain LMB which resulted in stunted LMB.

After introduction of BG and RES the relative weight of LMB improved drastically (approx 20%) in a matter of only 4 months.

BG (not sure about the RES) had laid claim to a section of the pond for their nesting area which they seemed to agressivily defend.

It seems like you have an interesting situation. Given that your pond is new (the GSF were not a preexisting condition in the pond) and that you are confident that they did not get introduced with your stocking event then they are being introduced from a local source. Even if you kill all of the fish and start over its seems only logical to me that they will be reintroduced in the future.

But I'm not an expert so you should probably just disregard everything I just said anyway.


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 Originally Posted By: jeffhasapond
 Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Maybe It's just me but if I found green sunfish in any of my ponds I'd first get so depressed I'd have to take antidepressants and then drain and rotenone the pond! \:\) I hate those little *&^%$.


HERESY!





I was expecting this. \:\) Kind of like defending criminals isn't it? \:D

I guess it depends if you are satisfied with this





or this.



\:\) \:\) \:\)



Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 11/13/07 10:27 AM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Anybody else hear the crickets chirping?


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Well in defense of our crimina, I mean our GSF, although they don't reach the size of BG they are teriffic fighters. And comparing that photo of a puny GSF is not very fair. Both DIEDs GSF and mine have exceeded 10 inches, DIED's have tipped the Boga at almost a pound and a quarter. Not too shabby IMHO. And did I mention that they fight like crazy????

DIED's GSF:




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Jeff you described a LMB crowded pond (the other extreme from a GSF stunted pond). Archer's problem is , unlike yours, that there are adult GSF there ahead of his stocker fish. You had adult LMB to keep them in check. Absent adding adult LMB as noted by GW or other mgt methods the GSF may well dominate the pond and stunt. Both types of problems can be managed with work and time. As Bill often says "it all depends".

I would guess that the vast majority of time GSF are present in ponds , absent active mgt. the result is what Cecil and Bill (previous thread)described. You and DIED's situation is indeed the exception and not the general rule. In many parts of the country the major problem faced by pond owners is the dreaded GSF or BG swarm and stunting - it is a very real problem if unmanaged.
















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 Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Anybody else hear the crickets chirping?


Cecil you rascal, you're heck bent on getting on the bad side of the GSA. I've given you every option to gracefully retreat from this disagreement. But now you've just gone too far.

I am now forced to formally request that you post your GPS location so that I can update the GSA's hit list data base. I'm sorry it had to come to this. You have been a great asset to this community. Oh and after posting the your GPS location please stand still for a day or two - everyone walking around willie-nillie makes the laser death ray hard to aim.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation, have a nice day!




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