Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Pond Boss Creative engineering

OK, this one goes out to the engineering minds in the audience, with an emphasis on electronics.
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IMPORTANT: low cost is essential
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It's gonna cost about 7 or 8 grand to bring in electic power at the LNP pond project. That idea is on hold for a couple years (or more?) I currently use a portable gasoline generator that I normally keep at my principal residence for emergencies. I want to get it back home where it belongs.
I have access to another (quality name brand) gasoline generator at a very fair price (friend bought it for a one-time emergency. I bet it hasn't got more than 20 hours on it). It's got an electric starter and battery tray. It's 4500 Watt peak (I believe 3.5 or 4K continuous). This will be fine for my application. We haven't yet discussed bottom line price, but I'm thinkin $300 - $400.
The difference is the electric starter; this is critical. It will allow D-ski to handle kickin' 'er over. But...my mind is taking this a little farther.
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I want to build a small shelter like a well-ventilated power house. I want to locate it 50 or 75 feet away from our little shed/cabin and run power in.
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Here is the catch:
In order to start it up, one would have to go to the shed, set the manual choke, kick it over, and back off the choke again. I want to be able to start it remotely, from inside the shed/cabin. In my feeble engineering mind, I see a 12V plunger solenoid attached to the choke lever and wired back to the shed/cabin. Does this make any sense? If yes, where would I find the correct unit? I've searched 12V magnetic solenoids, and my head is spinning. Any other thoughts?

Old school...back in the day cars had a choke stat,that was heated by the exhuast.When cold it would close the choke and as the exhuast got hot it opened it.The old chryslers were totally mechanical and the ford and chevy had elec assist.If it were me I think Id go to a junk yard and see if I couldnt find a used chysler unit to play with.Mount it to the muffler with a hose clamp and see if it backs off quick enough.Youd have to modify the rod but that shouldnt be a big problem if you have a coathanger.youll find it on the intake right next to the carb on the right side.

Brettski, Can you bury a ¾” PVC pipe from the generator-house to the cabin? This would be used to carry wiring, etc. to locate the on/off switch, starter button, and choke in the cabin.

Affirmative Dwight; that's the plan.

I would keep the choke manual so you have total control of the starting and warm-up functions.

You can buy the type of cable used for lawnmower throttle etc. off a bulk spool pretty cheaply. Since your cable and wire path will be moisture free this stuff should last as long as you care use it. It would be smart to keep any turns in your PVC conduit to 45 degrees or less if using glued connectors.

I may be more concerned about cold starts than you are; living there in the semi-tropics like you do.

Just my thoughts....

I considered the super-long manual cable thing. Is that really practical over a distance of 50 - 75 feet? (maybe 100) It sure is the simplest, most idiot-proof option (I think...?).

B'ski,
I've sold the bulk choke cale w/casinig and 100' would have too much friction to work unless the run was very, very straight. The wire is just to small for a long run.(more than 10')

Try the junkyard visit and pick up a manual thermostatic choke and a doorlock solenoid. I think you will find manual choke way to slow to release even next to the muffler but the doorlock solenoid to be super simple to rig up with a double pole-double throw switch used to reverse the current on the solenoid. Instant on-off for the choke and a simple push button for the starter. I would add a kill switch as well though. 12 gauge wire would be fine for a 100' run. BTW keep a product called Seafoam in your fuel---you will never have a fuel related problem if you do, about 1oz Seafoam per gallon.

Rainman...
I like your doorlock solenoid idea. Tolerant of the voltage/amperage output of a starter battery and it would have to have some type of pre-fab yoke for attaching, too. Hmmmm; good suggestion.

Bretski,if you get a door solonoid get the switch and connectors too.That way you have everything you need except the wire runs.by the way what engine is it?

Couldn't the cost of bringing electricity in be amortized over a period of 5-7 years. You basically would pay like $80-$100 a month for electricity whether you used any or not.

I guess I dont have any old-school engineering skills and dont really know what you guys are all talking about?

I can just imagine what the Fruitcake Lady would have said about that.

All kidding aside, I think it's do-able with a simple remote start or gate latch kit.

Alright; time for another kick in the thread...
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The generator with electric start has been scored and sitting in the garage. With some helpful PM guidance from Tom G, I played my gennie cards out on E-bay and purchased a Coleman with a Subaru Robin gasoline engine.
At this point, I am sending out a call to one of our newer members, Lee Smith. Lee has shot thru the ranks of PB expertise and made a meteoric ascension to become President of the PB R/C toy Chapter. I would like his thoughts on this choke thing.
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As noted on above posts, I would still like to install this generator in a small powerhouse and be able to start it remotely. It has a manual choke lever; it will be the only remotely controlled device issue that I have not yet solved. I still see an opportunity to use a DC servo of some sort.
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A close-up of the choke lever in the open/run position.

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A shot of the surrounding hardware.

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The throw of the choke is 2.750" to the right (in an arc) to be fully closed for the starting position. I tried cold starting the engine without the choke; no go. It cranks right over when the choke is fully closed. Then, I immediately shifted it all the way back to the left to the run position to see if I could work with a full on/full off control (no intermediate positioning). As soon as I pushed it all the way back to the left to the run position, the engine ran fast/slow/fast as it adjusted the carb. Not real good. My point: I need the intermediate adjustment of the choke for my best performance. This means an adjustable remote control.
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OK Lee...any ideas? Anybody else?

I wonder if a linear actuator would work for you purposes. I have seen small ones on eBay that have been taken off of equipment and were reasonably priced. Maybe try a Google search for "LINEAR ACTUATOR"

Brettski, the rear window actuator in our '03 windstar(ford) van moves the window about 21/2" in and out and can be interrupted at any point in the stroke.It is 12v. and works from a rocker switch.Perhaps a local auto parts store or junkyard could supply? hth Tom

A long cable will still work. It want push but it will pull. Simply add a spring to the choke lever so it returns to run when choke cable is released. You're cable mechanism will need to have a stop or detent if you don't want to manually operate it until you here the engine smooth out and just fully release it by hand. Small wire rope can be purchased from a farm store or building supplier you want need a casing on it. I can also rig up a remote wireless controlled actuator I do this on my rockytopper campers. I found these actuators on line prices start at 59$.

http://www.firgelliauto.com

Rocky, I still like the cable approach myself. You explained it a lot better than I did, though.

I fear that Brettski is losing touch with reality having that shiny new motor-generator unit. As you know his concentration does wane on occasion.

Brettski, Please report back with your final configuration, when you get there.

Brettski:

I shall apply my prodigious brainpower to the subject matter and come up with an RC solution for you asap, although it might end up being just about the most complicated possible solution ... LOL.

Jeepers ... from obscurity to a PB guru in a matter of months ....I love it.

Oh, and just so I have it right, you need to do 2 functions .. remote start/ stop and choke rich/lean is that correct?

Also, can you run some wire from the house to "the generator house" or will this be done by radio function?

One more thing, how much pressure does it take to move the choke lever? Trying to determine of a standard servo (generally pretty cheap) will have enough power to do the required mechanical action.

Last question, are you able to splice and solder .... because I might already have found a solution if you can. Involves taking an off-the-shelf "servo Tester" which supplies a "fake" rc signal to drive servos without running a transmitter and no receiver is needed. Take the output of that servo tester, extend the wires from your house down to the genset to control the servos directly. Servo testers are about $20 each.

Do I have a clear picture of the requirements?

Lee

If it involves quantities of heavy steel (rebar, I-beams, cold rolled sheet stock) he will love it.

(don't forget the generous coating of concrete)
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Only one function...the choke lever, but it would be a push-pull function. The remote start/stop is easily covered with a wired switch that will run thru underground conduit.
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There will be an underground conduit to carry wiring between the gennie-house and the shed that contains the controls.
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I cannot quantify the physical load required, but it is pretty darned effortless and smooth. There are a couple of intermittent detent positions, but they are also smooth and minimal (I assume that over time, this may change as things get "used", but I am pretty anal about keeping things clean and tuned). I can't imagine we're talking much more than a couple of ounces of required force.
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no biggie...bring it on. Remember, tho, that this is an area with vibration from the engine.

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(edit; Since I have you R/C engineering this thing, are there any simple gauges or registers that could be included with the servo unit that would allow me to read the positioning of the lever? I would be satisfied with a couple of LED's that indicated full-on or full-off.

Fulfilling your wish is my sworn duty as President Brettski.

If we are only talking about one control with low activation forces, this will be staightforward and above all, as cheap as I can think of.

I'm a scrounger too. As a kid, my fellow radio/electronics buddies would walk the back lanes looking for discarded TVs, radios, appliances ... anything we could strip for parts to build stuff ... the scrounging is a big part of the fun. That's why I like ham radio fleamarkets.

I'll toss together some links and a description of how to do it shortly.

Choke position info can be done too, but rather than doing by feedback, we'll do it by "dial position" which you can then calibrate to visualize the control position and provide you with smooth activation through the whole control range of throw.

I'm wondering how to disable the system for local vs remote start & operation. IE: when you're doing your tinkering by waterside.

Stand-by to stand-by.

Lee

OK Brettski, here we go.

Concept I'm proposing is to use a "servo tester" to run the model servo, which will have an extension on the servo output arm to obtain the full 2.75 inch throw required. A model airplane engine throttle cable and ball link control system will be your flex link from the servo to the choke lever.

To make it remote, you'll make an "extension cord" to run from the house to the miniature nuke power plant at pond-side by cutting the output wires from the servo tester and splicing in fairly large guage wire, run it out to the power generating station. Then hook up the other end, into which the servo will be plugged. I recommend maybe number 12 or so wire just to keep the voltage drop as low as possible. If the servo is too weak or slow, add another cell to the tester to compensate.

Thinking about it as I type, a better way would be to buy a servo extension cable like this one http://www.cheapyharnesses.com/page04.html and you can solder it onto the " big extension cable" and then you wouldn't need to modify the servo driver at all and void the warranty. That way only a couple of bucks would be at stake.

Your need to operate either locally or by remote could be solved by just unplugging the servo driver and taking out to the power generating station building, buying off the security guard to gain access, and then plugging it in out at the site to control things from there.

Vibration is a problem, but the same is true in model airplanes and soft mounting methods are possible to minimize but not eliminate the effects of rattling back & forth for hours on end. The best protection is to consider the servos are only around $10 so when (not if) one of them packs in, it won't be total financial disaster.

The length of flex cable selected will allow you to mount the servo in a location where vibration is at a minimum. The only problem with using flex cable is the long throw required ... 2.75" might be long enough the cable bows out rather than moving the control at full throw. If that's the case, I'll show you a stiff pushrod to use.

Choke position. Look at this link and you'll see the knob on the tester has a number scale. That can be plotted to use as a guide to "where you're at." http://graphics.hobbypeople.net/gallery/518105.jpg

So away we go with the links:

1- the servo tester from Tower Hobbies. A large, reputable supplier for all things RC. http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXVK79&P=ML

2- the "standard size" model servo can found on EBay for $7 each or cheaper, here's the "expensive version" for 9.99
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXUK84


3- flex cable for the linkage http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXD862&P=7

4- control cable ends & mini ball-links
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXFPW8&P=7

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXD897&P=7

Hope that is helpful Brettski.

Sorry I wasn't able to involve any rebar, diesel locomotives, slaves that built the pyramids, or concrete in this solution!

Lee

Dwight, I don't think he likes our ideas or doesn't belief we have the credentials worthy of consideration. Some folks just have to see it for themselves. Here it is in living color. And if that's not convincing enough the second one is at 70 mph. I don't think vibration will be an issue. In fact we can move the entire generator house with it if he wants.
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l179/rockytoppers/?action=view¤t=MOV00790-11-1.flv

http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l179/rockytoppers/?action=view¤t=MOV00610-11-1.flv

Rocky-T....I was lookin' for the big crank and waitin' for Jack to pop out. Actually, that's pretty slick, man. Can you get me rigged on the choke control for under $50 with that stuff?
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Lee...this is why you're the President of all things R/C on PB. Thank you. Never mind Rockytopper. Him and Dwight get together and start drinkin' Coronas. Next thing ya know, your garage roof is liftin' up like a missile silo and your bass boat trailer tips up to 70 degrees. Hit the button, Max!
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There will be a 12 volt DC starter battery with the gen-set inside the powerhouse. I would be looking to tap this battery for the necessary power to run the servo. Will this still work with your plan?

Not required Brettski. The power for the servo is sent down the line from the servo driver. Its all self-contained.

Yes, you could use the 12 volt batt, but then you'd need a voltage regulator to provide the required 4.8 volts to the servo. Direct connect to the 12 v batt would fry it.

Lee