Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations first year pond observations

Well, i have to say, this pond business is like a continuous outdoor science experiment which certainly is part of what makes it fun. I stocked CNBG,FH, and RES this spring. Later that spring,flooding rain introduced bullheads and GS. Thanks neighbor In late spring i added tilapia,SMB, and a big pile of shiners and Fh. The idea being, that the early intoduction of the SMB would need to be offset by by the extra forage. I think i made one mistake that i would like to have back.I thought the tilapia were herbivours,not omnivours, wrong As a result,i think the predator load became too heavy. I am not seeing near as many small BG as i should be seeing. I thought the SMB would control the tilapia population, but that did not happen.I think the SMB were just too small.Though, they are in very good health right now.The tilapia quickly got too large, and became a competing predator themselves. At least, that's my current theory! I am currently overwintering some tilapia, but i am not sure when or if i will put them back in the pond.I certainly want the forage to get more of a head start next year.Hopefully the SMB will do a better job of controlling the tilapia next year, when the SMB are bigger.

Thanks for putting out your observations. You've got an interesting mix of fish.

Can you post your pond size again?

The smallies might be the slowest growing fish in that whole mix.
So for them to be predators, and to consider what they are capable of controlling as far as prey fish, you almost have to have an upper size limit for the prey fish. If the smallies are 10" by now, I don't think they can eat a 4" bluegill or tilapia.

So once all prey fish are over 4", they are safe.

Out of all the "prey" fish, the tilapia might be the most prolific, right? It might not be a bad idea to hold off on them until you have a different dynamic, but then again, I'm just guessing.

Any pics of the smallies?

hey Sunil,
the pond is 1/3 acre,8' deep. The smallies survived the heat this summer, and are about 8-10" in size now. I think i may do what Aaron said he did in another post, and add some fatheads this winter.
It's amazing just how prolific the tilapia are.They were really dominating the pond at the end of the summer. I had a couple of small ones in an aquarium a few weeks ago with some pacu.I had to take one of them out for being an over the top bully! They are extremely aggressive with other fish.The aquarium is where i found out that they would eat other fish.
I may not put them back in the pond this summer,unless the algae really gets going.

Howard, same sex tilapia in 1/4 acre pond works for me.
Controls algae and no reprodudtion.

I think the real issue is "predator efficiency". I bet if i had not put the tilapia in, the BG population would have exploded because of how quickly they would have gotten to a "safe" size. I'm hoping , with the added year of growth, the SMB will be a more efficient predator next year. I love how the tilapia keep the pond clean of algae. And they obviouly would provide great forage, as long as the predator is capable of eating them I'm thinking i may need to add a few large female only LMB next yr.Hopefully, by then, my SMB will be too large to be eaten by the LMB.

Howard, are you feeding? I put in a few Tilapia as added forage as well.. they spawned a few times but seems like the smb and bg must have cleaned all thy fry up as all I see are YOY BG - not tilapia.

My tilapia haven't helped at all with FA this year, but oddly enough the shiners I put in this week have already started making a dent in the FA in one a little cove I have. I was thinking of the female LMB next year too, and maybe a couple HSB - probably one or 2 of each.

Did you put in blue or mozambique tilapia??

Yes, i did feed thoughout the summer..It's interesting that the tilapia ended up dominating in my pond more than in yours..not sure why that would be. My initial stocking of tilapia was probably higher...The minumum order was 10lbs., which was probably too many for my small pond.Not sure which kind of tilapia i have..Mozambique, i think..It will also be interesting to see how our smallies do next year..Bob Lusk said his made it through the first summer, but not the second..so we'll see... I'm hoping my Aeration and shade will make the difference

I am posting this here because I think I have a similiar problem.

A little background. My pond is in Wooc County in Northeast Texas. I purchased it in 2005.

It was impounded in 1972 when a small ravine was dammed. It is therefore long and skinny. About 600 feet long and probably around 1,4 acres. Sides are pretty steep and deepest water is 13 to 15 feet in the middle. The pond sits in the midst of a pine/hardwood forest and the bottom and sides are strewn with downed timber.

It is spring fed by strong springs--they never stopped flowing in the drought of 2006, even in the hottest days. I tried to measure the flow through by seeing how fast a five gallon bucket filled. So I sent my son down with a bucket and it seemed to fill almost instantly.

The water is very clear. Pond chemistry was measured by a professional at Ph 6.1 at about 9:00 am. Total alkalinity around 30, but alkalinity 0. My consultant recommended liming the pond, but I have not done that yet as access is problematic.

We have caught LMB and BG, so I know they are in the pond. We have tried to catch catfish to no avail, but the previous owner said he stocked catfish. Most of the LMB are between 10" and 13", but we have caught a few that were 19". BG have been as big as 10-12". I agreed with my consultant that the bass looked a little skinny and he also noted that the LNB could use a dose of new genetics. So he recommended that I stock 1000 CNBG in the 2" to 3" range. Because it was mid-summer, CNBG were hard to come by, but I ended up stocking 500 BG/RES (80%-20%) mix in June 2007. But they were only 1" to 3". To supplement this, we stocked 15 pounds of Tilapia that were 3" to 6".

I also began supplemental feeding later in June.

All summer long we saw numerous Tilapia and they came to the feeder. They seemed to be reproducting well as we saw them on all sizes including some as large as 12-14". Although we continued to catch BG over the summer, I never did notice any evidence that the CNBG that were stocked survived.

I was down at the pond this weekend, February 6, and I observed numerous Tilapia still alive. I have been down there about once a week for the winter and I have never seen any dead Tilapia floating. But the woods are full of critters and the pond has some pretty big snapping turtles. So I broke out the Aqua View camera and in the deeper parts of the pond, I observed numerous good size Tilapia still swimming. Did not see any BG, but saw only one bass.

The water is extremently clear this winter. In fact, I have dicovered an old tire reef and some major logs on the bottom that I could not see before. In the summer my Sechi disk measurements varied between 5' and 7'. Now I can see it on the bottom at 15'. Needless to say, the FA is the worse I have ever seen it. It looks like the entire bottom of the pond is covered in a green carpet.

Sooooo... here are my questions/concerns:

1. Can you overstock Tilapia? I was planning to order some more for earlier stocking this year, but I am worried that they have developed a taste for meat and not algae. There is plenty of FA to eat. And what happens if they survive the winter? How do I know what to stock, because I don't know how many have survived?

2.

Post continued:

Sorry, hit the wrong button and posted before my question was done.

2. I was planning to stock more CNBG this spring. Does this still make sense?

3. I was also going to add some LMB to freshen the genetics. Do LMB show a preference for CNBG over Tilapia? I added the Tilapia to reduce the pressure on the CNBG. But if the Tilapia are eating the CNBG fry, that seems to be counter-prodcutive.

4. But if I have too many Tilapia, why do I have so much FA?

5. I was considering fertilization, but with the flow through and the FA problem, that would seem to be a bad idea. Agree?

6. I have only owned the property for 2 years, but the water clariity this year is remarkable. Is it just a result of the warm winter or is it just that I have been on the property more this winter than before and just noticed it. (This water comes from the same aquifer that Ozarka-brand bottled water comes from.)

Thanks. Any advice would be appreciated.

A few thoughts:

The strong inflow of (low 60's?) ground water from the springs may provide enough of a warm water haven for tilapia to overwinter successfully, at least in some years.

Tilapia appetites drop off with lower water temps, so even though they are still alive, they are not eating nearly as much as they would in the summertime. Conversely, FA growth on the bottom is often at it's most aggressive in cool water.

I think almost all of the reports from tilapia users indicate that the seasonal introduction of this fish is beneficial to their BG populations. Only in waters warm enough for tilapia to overwinter each and every year do they have a negative impact on BG, such as in Mexican lakes where the tilapia are NOT aggressively pursued by local anglers/netters, holding their population down.

Yur (CN)BG, at least the small sizes, are probably suffering much more from the stunted bass. The BG/RES mixed stockers you added were unfortunately small enough to have been very susceptible to numerous 10"-13" LMB. Have you made an effort to reduce the bass numbers?

As to reducing bass. Yes, we have been removing them as we catch them, but that is only probably 30 fish. I am not sure I have a bunch of them.

The spring water temp seems like a good idea. One of the spings is not under the pond so I will measure its temp next time. If my pond is able to over-winter Tilapia, should I not use them?

Bill,

I would think you could still use the tilapia, but you probably wouldn't have to restock them every spring like many pond owners. I would keep an eye on their numbers, since they do produce so many offspring. If they get too numerous, or if there aren't enough LMB to keep them in check, then you can always fish for them and/or trap them to adjust the population.


What is your goal for this pond? Trophy LMB? An abundance of BG/RES/CNBG? That will help you decide your next course of action.

I know you are concerned about the algae, but fertilizing the pond might reduce the clarity, thus helping the CNBG reach a size at which they can't be eaten by the 10-13" LMB.

Fertilizing may not work due to the high flow through of water.

Good point, Sunil. What's the next best way to reduce clarity for the yoy or small BG/CNBG?

Add the lime suggested. Without it and with water flow considerations you may not get a plankton bloom - thus no bottom layer to the food chain. Plankton bloom will help shade the FA and add forage for the BG and tilapia. I would be very careful of over-wintering tilapia as they can easily take up most of your carrying capacity and crowd out the BG and LMB recruitment. Studies on which LMB prefer BG or tilapia are based on gape size for the size of the meal. LMB have an unbelievable ability to gauge the size of prey and their ability to easily swallow it. Because BG have tall spines top and bottom as related to their size, LMB will eat tilapia first as they are longer and less tall (require less LMB gape size) all other things being equal. In the real pond world we know that all other things are not normally equal and LMB are opportunity feeders so they will eat what they can easily catch and swallow first (maximize energy conversion and use). Add some adult 6 in. CNBG if you want them to succeed in the pond.

You may not know if your pond can establish a plankton bloom because it may well be constrained by low alkalinity rather than flow through ( low alka constrained). We have springs and clear water and often its the low alkalinity that is the problem not the springs.

Thanks for the replies.

I have assumed that there are some plankton blooms, even if weak, simply because there seems to be a self-sustaining population of LMB and BG. This may not be a good assumption. The water does get less clear in the summer, but usually you can see at least 4 to 5 feet using a Sechi disk.

My goals are pretty simple. I would like to have nice size bass and big blue gill to catch on a fly rod. There are some beautiful sunfish in the pond with colors or red and aqua. I am not trying to grow any 13 pounders as I am not sure the pond would support it.

From what I have read, it seems to me that fertilization would not be effective because of flow through and low pH. I was going to compensate with a second feeder instead.

I am going to try to add the adult CNBG this spring.

I am still not sure whether to add any more Tilapia if these make it through the winter.

Getting lime to all the pond is going to be difficult. Trees come down to the shoreline all around except near the dam. Will lime spread on the ground in the watershed eventually effect the pond water?

Are the liquid lime products I see advertise as effective as ag lime?

Thanks again for all the good comments. This forum is one of the most educational I have ever seen.

Ag lime can be placed in the watershed (creek or spring) and wash in. It is better to have the spreader truck disperse it from the dam if that is the only location. I would use the liquid lime as a last resort. You can use pelletted lime in bags (not hydrated lime) which can be poured out of a boat or spread in shallow water at the edge. Take a look at this for why lime (alkalinity) is important. It has many benefits to water quality.

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/144249-464f...80414f978c6b159

ewest, thank you for the link, fascinating stuff. Man you guys are good. Thanks again!

You are welcome. This is a better link on the how to and why than the link above .

Liming ponds

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/381285-4100...2a50d0634465672

Thanks for the info. Bags may be the way to go as I think getting a truck to the dam would be a challenge. I am going to try and post some pics to give you some idea of what I am talking about.

Pond from the dam:



The road to the dam winds through the woods dropping down to the dam. Getting in is easy;getting out is the challenge.

Dam

This is what the bag lime looks like. One option is to have the lime truck dump the lime in a good place (part on a small dump trailer attached to a 4 wheeler or bigger trailer attached to a pickup). Can you drive a pickup to the dam ? Some Co-Ops will put X tons in a hopper you pull to the pond and disburse from a tractor.

Thanks again for all the good info. Now that I have this picture thing figured out, here are some pics of bass we harvested last summer. Do they look skinny?

On the whole the LMB look better than the pic of ericdc's from the other day ( http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...true#Post107635 ) but still under weight. That could be partly a time of year result. It does look like you have some plankton bloom from the water color. If so it is an indication that lime and a small amount of fertilizer might help.

Couple of Things...

1. When water warms up, I have heard mentioned on this site about a food pellet shaped fly that people use to catch tilapia. You could use that to help deplete some of the ones you have that are a larger size. It would also be a fun way to catch dinner for yourself.
2. Yes, the bass look skinny, but as was mentioned by ewest, it could be the time of year. Check them this spring to see if they still look skinny or if they are fattening up. When the tilapia and other forage starts to spawn, they should fatten up nicely.

Just wanted to close the loop on my Tilapia questions and the comment that the spring water might keep the water warm enough to overwinter the Tilapia in northeast Texas.

I was at the pond today. Overnight temp was about 35 degrees, but it got into low sixties by late aftenoon. I took the following temps between 12:00 p.m and 12:30.

Water temp about 18" below the surface was between 52 and 53 degrees. But water temp at one of the springs I can get to, was about 56 degrees.

Tilapia still alive.