Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Please initiate me into the GSA

I am here to nominate myself for membership into the GSA.

I pledge to manage my pond in the best interest of the almighty green sunfish and protect it from heretical blasphemism.

Now that I got that out of the way, I figured I would let you guys know what I plan on doing with my pond.

BACKGROUND:

First, though, a little background info on the pond. My wife and I bought the land that has the pond a little over a month ago. We could no longer stand living on a 1/2 acre lot in a subdivision with neighbors up the wazoo, and no room for the kids to play, so we searched for some property and found this one right away. It is ten acres of open, flat land with a one acre pond. Best of all, you can't see another building for 360 degrees when you are on the property. We do have neighbors on both sides, but the one side lives in some woods about 1/3 of a mile away and on the other side, about a 1/3 of a mile, lives my best friend whom I've known for over 15 years and his wife (who is my wife's cousin) and their two kids. The pond is spring fed (possibly artesian... still investigating) and was finished 1 & 1/2 years ago. It was never stocked, so I thought I would be starting with a clean slate, that was until I tried fishing it a few times over the last few weeks and caught some fish! Green sunfish, to be exact. At first, I considered erradicating them, and truly getting a fresh start, but being the penny pincher that I am,I figured I might as well include them in my fish plan.

FISH PLAN:

I wanted to do something a little different than the standard BG, LMB, CC that the DNR recommends to people around here and since I have a nice supply of fresh, cool water continuisly being pumped into the pond from the underground springs, I figured I might as well try some cool-water species.

I already stocked 20 lbs. of FH's this fall to try to establish a forage base for the fish and have an order from Jones Fish Hatchery due in 2-3 weeks. They will be bringing the following:
1 Triploid White Amur (Grass Carp)
8-10 in.
55 Hybrid Striped Bass
3-4 in.
10 Channel Catfish
3-5 in.
15 lbs. Golden Shiner
100 Mosquito Fish
40 Smallmouth Bass
3-4 in.
100 Yellow Perch
4-6 in.
50 Yellow Perch
6-8 in.
20 Walleye
5-7 in.
And I will be putting in 5-10 lbs of papershell crayfish as soon as I can get some.

Since the perch will be the main panfish in the pond, the GSF should compliment the mix nicely, especially since they will only spawn once a year and their population should stay in check with the bass. Hopefully I should get some decent sized ones in the mix.

GOALS:

All I am really trying to get from my pond is some decent fishing with the occcasional meal. The nearest lake to me is over a half hour away, so it is hard to get out and fish as much as I would like. I am not looking for any trophies, just some 8-10 in. YP to eat and the occasional nice fight from a HSB, SMB, or CC, or a surprise walleye catch.

FUTURE PLANS:

I plan on building a 20'x30' forage/grow-out pond that will connect to the main pond via waterfall, so I can raise FH's to compliment the main pond or grow out HSB for future stockings. I also plan on setting up a bottom diffuser aerator as soon as I set up an electrical service on the property. If my temp readings turn out to be low enough next summer, I would like to put some trout in the pond eventually. And, I am also going to put in a beach and some other fun stuff for the wife and kids.

So, what do y'all think? Am I crazy?

I forgot to mention that the pond is 16' at the deep end and about 8-10' deep on average.

With growth then:

55 HSB X 3lbs = 165 lbs
40 SMB X 1lb = 40 lbs
20 Eyes X 2lbs = 40lbs
10 CC X 3lbs = 30lbs
________
Total 275lbs

That is a conservative estimate of those fish as adults ( and assumes no offspring which may happen with SMB , HSB , CC and WE) and is a lot for a one acre. A general rule is 100 lbs of predators per acre. Will you be feeding pellets? The SMB will not easily control the YP #s or the GSF #s so you will be counting on the WE and HSB to do so. If the 3 can't crop the YP #s a lot they may well stunt. Same for the GSF.

If you will be feeding (pellets and FH) and removing fish so as to keep a balance below carrying capacity with good water quality it should work. It will take substantial mgt. efforts. Very interesting project.

If Rob Jones brings the fish tell him the PB Canada trip group says hello. Be sure you tell him or have the driver tell him hello from PB.

I will be sure to tell him hello if he delivers.

I debated with myself for a while on the stocking numbers. I plan on harvesting as much as I need to (unfortunately, the pond will not produce enough to satisfy my cravings for fish) so I can hopefully keep things in check. I also factored in a 20% mortality factor on all the fish that are stocked. I am not sure how accurate that is, but I figure that not all are going to make it. And, since the HSB will not reproduce, the CC and WE will be very "iffy" at best, and the SMB will be up in the air, I wanted to try to stock enough predators initially, to help keep the YP and GSF in check.

AFA additional feeding goes, I am going to try just supplementing FH's for the first couple years. I am hoping that there will be enough additional forage between the shiners and crayfish. If the RW's end up a little low after the two years, I am definately not opposed to pellets, I would just rather not use them if they are not necessary. Are you thinking, that I should start with pellets?

Also, I was kinda planning on the different predators filling different niches in the overall ecosystem to allow a little higher carrying capacity.

It might work but I'm like Ewest. You are pushing the envelope out to and beyond the edge. The worst thing that might happen is a die off. Next is stunting and dissatisfaction. I believe that I would take a more conservative approach. But, it's your water hole. Let us know how it turns out.

You have a stocking scheme that will probably take a good deal of tweaking. But you want to fish and eat fish a lot - which means the tweaking should be fun. And in one acre, it should be manageable.

Feeding pellets will increase the amount of fish you can harvest from the pond, I believe noticeably. Many of us also derive a great deal of pleasure and information from watching our fish eat. If you have the time next year, buy 50 lbs of Game Fish Chow, hand feed and see if you enjoy it.

I am very interested to know if your Mosquito fish are present next year; there is a great deal of skepticism as to whether they will survive Winter under the ice in the presence of predators. I will be stocking Mosquito Fish as part of the initial forage in a new pond next Spring; if they only reproduce for one year before getting wiped out, that would be OK, but naturally I'd rather have them hang around longer if possible.

I would make one suggestion. Find out the current status of the GSF population. Like most fish, GSF will quickly in an empty pond reproduce so as to fill the pond to carrying capacity. If there are large GSF (4in+) they will have large mouths and eat a lot of offspring and FH and Gams. The biggest risk to your plan is that the pond is already near carrying capacity with GSF. If so it will not support the new fish or the existing GSF. A wild guess here , if you have more than 25 lbs of GSF in the pond now , you should remove as many as possible. If you had BG instead of GSF I would be giving the same advice.

Dave,
If it were you, where would you start to shave numbers, AFA predators are concerned?

Theo or ewest,
Would it be worthwhile to start any sort of feeding program this fall? Or is it better to wait till spring since it is so late in the fall? If I wait till spring, will it be tougher to get the fish to eat the pellets? I've read that the HSB shouldn't have a problem getting back on the pellets, I'm guessing the CC will not have any trouble, the WE will not eat pellets, but what about the perch and SMB?

ewest,
I've caught 3 that were over 4-5" and one at 6", and quite a few at 2-3". They were extremely hungry, b/c a week after I put in the first 5 lbs. of FH's, I caught a 4" that had a belly like a golf ball, my FH I was using as bait in his mouth, and an additional FH in his mouth. Do you think they could overpopulate the pond in only two seasons? They were never stocked in there, ocurred "naturally", and there is no water within 1/2 mile. And, the land never flooded to allow their arrival. FWIW, I counted 10-15 spawning beds, all on the east side of the pond.

It is pretty late on the year up here for significant feeding to occur. I stopped feeding about 2 weeks ago (when I finished off the last bag of GFC for the year and I was down to the amount of Aquamax 600 I want to feed indoors this Winter), 2-3 weeks from now it will be even colder. You might get a little feeding on really sunny nice days (expecially from GSH, which IME will feed if there is a hole in the ice), but commercial feed can be hard for fish to digest in cold water.

Wait until Spring. CC will eat it, HSB should it eat it, some of the YP (and maybe SMB) will start eating it when they get hungry.

IMHO 2 years is plenty of time for GSF (or a lot of other species) to fill up a pond.

Theo,
Would our immediate recommendation be to cull out as many of the GSF as I can before the rest of the stockers arrive, to better give an even footing to all species?

Should I stock any RES in the pond? My local fish guy has some in that are 4-6". Would it be to my advantage to have any in there to control parasites?

For the creation of the pledge above I do hereby formally nominate you for GSA membership. If your membership is approved by the secret membership investigation council, you will become the sixth member of this prestigious organization as follows:

GSA Club Members

Member #1 and Club President: Dave Davidson1

Member #2: Dave In El Dorado (aka DIED)

Member #3: Jeffhasapond

Member #4: Joey

Member #5: GW (even though it turns out he has Warmouth, the GSA does appreciate the fact that he thought that he had GSF and wanted to defy conventional wisdom in his stocking strategy).

Member #6: Bbjr

Thanks for the formal nomination, Jeff. If the association approves my membership, should I warn my wife that mysterious men in cloaks may kidnap me in the middle of the night for an initiation process? Actually, on second thought, I better not... I think she knows too much already .

Little GSF (say, under 3") should make forage for your predators (like those 5"-7" WE). I can see making an effort to remove larger GSF (who knows what size GSF can eat an adult FHM?). If you plan to manage for trophy GSF as many of the exalted (read "disturbed" ) members of the GSA do, a slot limit would be in order - leave the small GSF, remove the medium sized, leave the very largest. You won't get them all out (even if you had longer), but you can make a little difference and have fun to boot.



Heck, yes! They will provide an additional forage source and control snails, and I doubt they can make your management situation any harder. Plus, if you're man enough to manage GSF, you might be able to handle Redears.

Jeff:

What kind of penance/self flagellation would I have to perform to become a GSA member and get removed from your death ray target list?

Originally posted by Bill Webb:




Don't even bother to ask. I'm expecting he'll require the removal [without anesthesia] of the two superfluous pectoral accoutrements which your greenies find so attractive, with supporting video documentation, to even consider sparing you.

Bill, I'm afraid you and I are now doomed to a life of exile, always looking over our shoulders and wondering when our time will come.....

why does that remind me of a "hair club for men" commercial?

TO THE GSA CLUB MEMBERS: I'm curious to know how the organization is sustaining itself. Over here at B.I.S.A., we (or I) are having one heck of a time collecting any initiation fees or dues from anyone subsequent to myself in membership. I, of course, have not paid anything yet either, but that's neither here nor there. I've also noticed that the GSA has a logo and a motto. Could you perhaps refer me to the agency who developed these ideas, and more importantly, do they work for free?

member #3 is a clever bean counter who likes las vegas, need i say more?

Well Yoke Sac, if there is no chance of compromise or redemption I may as well revel in my evil ways. I have always like evil revelling anyway! To that point only selective human females are allowed to bite my nipples and then only gently. More than enough said.

Anyway, East Texas is a good place for alluding detection in any case. That is how my family got to Texas in the first place. My great-great grandfather was born in Pulaski, TN. During the War Between the States the town was constantly taken and retaken by Union and Confederate forces. My gg-grandfather was about 17 and befriended Union soldiers hung around them, played ball with them, etc. He listened a lot too, and had an older childhood friend that was an officer in the Confederate Army. On occasion his friend came back into town to visit in civilian clothes and collected information from my gg-grandfather and other of his friends. He got caught and was strung up. I forget his name but he was so young even the Yankees felt sorry for him. There is or was a statute of him on the Capitol grounds in TN. My gg-grandfather ran off to MS and stayed with an uncle there until it got too hot, then headed off to the unsettled areas of East Texas and survived until amnesty. Thus me being here.

If he could evade the Union Occupation Army, I guess I can evade the GSA, got lots of big tall trees, no good aerial shots here. Anyway with Jeff their CPA going off to Las Vegas all the time it's going to take a long time for them to collect 358,000 cans of diet coke, yuk!

Back to the point.

What is the highest temp. levels those monster meanie greenie munching eaters tolerate? I wish I could get a couple.

Even in the hottest days of summer when the temp. hovers around 100%F for weeks I swim through real cool spots I guess where spring/well water is seeping in (unfortunetly not artesian). Think they could survive, if not thrive in the summer in the cool spots, and hopefully not reproduce. Kind of like mean trout to play with in the winter?

That's a great story. I hope that Bill Cody chimes in with a Muskie temperature range report. My initial inclination is to say that if you get above the mid to upper-seventies that Muskies would get lethargic and stressed. Keep in mind that if dissolved oxygen levels are high, that the top temperature tolerance goes up a little bit too. Muskies tolerate warm water better than northern pike, and are stocked in Eastern Nebraska reservoirs with pretty good longevity and angler return rates. Our lakes get up into the upper eighties, but generally are deep enough to maintain a modest thermocline for the muskies to retreat to during the heat of the day.

Is that enough BS for ya?

Bruce, I was half joking about the muskies in my pond, but then again........you never know.

I need to break down and get a good thermometer and start taking water temps at different places and different depths. The problem is I still wouldn't know the DO level, and that equipment is very expensive for someone with just a one acre pond. When I was on my TPW & UT-Tyler turtle trapping tracking excursions they had a real nice thermometer for taking water temps but in C but I could get used to that. Got any suggestions on where to get a good one for sinking into water?

BTW I read that post on how to clean a turtle, but you haven't lived until you hold one while someone is sticking a needle into its front leg getting a blood sample or a thermometer into its butt getting it's tempature, lol.

I know the further into the continent one goes the more extremes the temps.....i.e. NE summer temps will get as high as ours down here, but how are you night summer temps? I have seen it in mid-summer where there over 30 days over 100 with the lows at night never getting below 85, and that is what is hot, no cool mornings.

Guess the point need a thermometer and use it and log it.

Thanks about the story, I mainly told it because Yolk Sac is from TN.

I never get enough BS....haven't you noticed I got more than my fair share.

Bill

Admitting that you were wrong about the almighty GSF and taking the pledge would be a good start. Although admittedly, Yolk's suggestion is being considered....

Unfortunately Sunil collection of membership fees is always a problem. Here at the GSA we decided upon a different funding strategy. We utilize the the time proven methods of black mail and protection rackets. This is then carefully invested by a minimum Pass Line bet at the craps table along with the 6 and 8 place bet backed with a maximum odds bet..