Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Pond Boss How deep will we have to dig?

I am about as conservative as you can get but we are running this world into the ground. The population of the world has increased by 34% in the last 20 years and whether by natural means, or unnatural, we are coming out of an iceage and the earth has been consistently warming ever since. I guess in the long term, the polar caps will melt and water levels will rise but we pondmiesters may have a uncomfortable meantime waiting for the rain. There are some upsides. None of the saltwater fisheries will be able to be maintained at the current rate so more farm raised fish will be required making land with water more valuable. Land values will continue to rise since the population will keep exponetially rising. Land is a great investment in this day any way you cut it. If you can wait 20 years to cash out you will make a mint. In the future if you have 200 acres you'll be considered a land barron. Crazy times ahead my friends. I'm a republican but I'm a science nut and keep up with the latest research and we are killing species faster than any time in the fossil record. All of the fresh water bodies are shrinking so common sense tells you this will effect our ponds. What are some considerations that will be needed in this brave new world if you want to have a body of fresh water on your land? This might seem extreme and I'm no tree hugger but being a 33 year old man, I'm not sure I want to bring kids into this world.

My immediate concern is the government says I can't pump water anymore to raise my trout or decides to tax it regardless if there is no water shortage in my area.

I'm a science nut too, but there is evidence the earth has a tendency to push back to maintain equilibrium, or even go the other extreme. I.e. if the warming up disrupts the Gulf stream it could have an opposite effect and create a big chill. Did some of you know that Hamburg, Germany is at the same latitude as Juneau, Alsska, but obviously doesn't have the climate of Alaska? That's of course due to ocean currents modifying their temperatures.

On the upside for ponds farther north where I am, milder temps and milder winters could increase the growth rates of warmwater (coolwater) fish and the length of the growing season as long as their is enough water.

Keith, I'm with you, but you have to be more optimistic. As Cecil says, Mother Earth can take pretty good care of herself. She has checks and balances, and a counter punch for every punch thrown at her.

But you're right about the population. Everyone complains and worries about the symptoms, but nobody complains about the root cause. You're correct about land being a great investment, too. It's a safer bet and better investment than 30 year treasuries.

I am with bobad and Cecil on this one. I have had the privilege of knowing and working with a lot of very good earth scientists (many of them PhDs). They know and understand the history of how the earth works (unlike wild-eyed Al). They warn about the politicization of science and do not to believe the doomsday approach of the ones who say "if we don't let THEM control mankind and the earth we will all parish". It is important to recall that the founders of this country (our forefathers) correctly held a strong belief that our collective freedom was more important than their (or any) individual lives. As Lincoln said, that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion — that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain — that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom .... Lincoln's Gettysburg Address.

Ewest,

What concerns me is the doomsdayers could create a "cry wolf" syndrome, and if we do have some legitimate environmental concerns no one will believe it.

Keith, after having lived through the Great Depression, survived WWII combat, gathered knowledge and experience along life’s journey, I have been blessed me with a long, happy and productive life.
I decided early on that one needs positive perspective in this world in which we live.

As others younger and wiser than I have stated, our earth is in a state of constant change and turmoil and mankind had evolved and adapted.

A positive attitude goes a long way in today’s world of challenge...

Keith, I hear you and have thought a great deal about the things you mentioned. I discuss these topics often with family members and some guys at work. I'm 34 and married with 4 young kids, and wonder what type of world they are going to grow up in as adults.

The good thing is there are plenty of reasons for optimism. There are a whole lot of really sharp people looking for solutions to the problems we are facing and are going to face. As an individual there is not a whole lot I can personally do about it other than vote and talk to other people about it. I believe in a greater power too and am convinced that man is not really in charge.

That being said there are some common sense things that a person can do. Things like getting debt free and owning land with water on it make a lot of sense. So does working in industries and occupations that will continue to be very important regardless of how bad the economy or times get. Those who have a short commute and who are more self sufficient than others (hunting, gardening, orchards, solar & wind power, etc.) will probably have an easier time of it in the future than the average joe who is totally reliant on others to provide goods and services.

Good discussion.

Eric

Good points my friends but there are several areas that have demised and that we are overusing like the oceans fisheries. George, I believe you've lived during a great time to live on this earth. As far as air pollution and global warming, I agree. I'm honestly more concerned with species extiction and solid waste. George, you go to the coast. I have a few times a year since I was born and my dad was raised on the Laguna Madre. All you have to do these days is fish the surf for 30 minutes nowa'days before you see a platic bag going by in the current or a hypodermic needle on the beach. Trash is currently being dumped into the ocean as long as they go so far out. We use much more plastic now than we ever did in any of our lives and the stuff just stays in the ocean and washes up on the beaches and stays on the ocean floor. I'm very concerned about the oceans as are all the marine biologists that I've heard. I think most whales will become extinct. There is hard evidence on the fisheries being depleted beyond their ability to sustain themselves. Did you know that elephants, rhinos, and great apes are all becoming more endangered? Like you said, we are currently in the cry wolf period. Noone is listening and nature is saying, here goes hippos, elephants, rhinos, chimps, gorillas, whales, and snowleopards. I guess we are content with having a few in the zoo. I hope we all like to eat tilapia cuz you can kiss salmon, tuna, and swordfish goodbye. Do you know that when I was born none of these animals were having many problems? I think maybe the bald eagle due to ddt. Like you said, not much I can personally do other than vote and make smart choices but this really is a different situation than we have ever faced before. I think its mainly just the effects of population and the numbers don't lie. I would like to be optimistic on this as I am with other things. If you don't buy the pollution angle, then just take a look at the endangered species list and how fast it is growing and we should atleast all be able to agree that things are getting serious in that area. Just out, every ape and monkey on earth would fit in a football stadium. What will it take, even for us republicans????? When I was kid there were millions.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071026095223.htm

That kinda got off topic. I was originally thinking about what ponds would be like and how deep we might have to dig or if we might have to use more watershed but I guess I have deeper concerns.

George Wrote:


Words of wisdom to live by! Hope and optimism do go a long ways!

If we all sit around and be optimistic, ten more years will pass and more animals will be endangered and threatened or even wore, extinct. We are at that point. I was just on us fish and wildlife service site and they have a few success stories out of the hundreds of species that are threatened or endangered right here in North America. The list is growing WAY more quickly than species are being removed. Here are the mammals:

http://ecos.fws.gov/tess_public/SpeciesReport.do?groups=A&listingType=L&mapstatus=1

Here are the fish:

http://ecos.fws.gov/tess_public/SpeciesReport.do?groups=E&listingType=L&mapstatus=1

there are equally impressive lists for birds, amphibians, and reptiles. What did the last 10 years of optimism accomplish? Someone tell me how that helps other than just accepting the inevitable. That I can understand but there really insn't much to be optimistic about on the endangered species. Just check out these links.

Keith,

I see your point, but you did you know that 99 percent of the original species on earth have gone extinct? And many before we even showed up? Not saying it's O.K. or inevitable, but it's not a new thing.

We have an overblown belief that we are here to stay anyway. At some point there will be another ice age (unless global warming prevents that) and there will be a mile thick sheet of ice where I am sitting here typing this at there was about 10,000 years ago. And then there is always the potential of an asteriod strike or comet that could make us go extinct.

Did you know that scientists have determined via our DNA that man almost went extinct about 70,000 years ago? Our numbers dwindled drastically due to some cathostrophic event.

from a geologic standpoint, imagine standing around trying to be optimistic about the dinosaurs after the meteor hit.

i agree and its obvious that man has helped push a variety of species to the brink, and some over it, never to come back. however, some species are on their way out no matter what man does or does not do. w/ climate change there will be new niche species to evolve and take their place. what we might consider as humdrum species today may eventually become niche species ultimately evolving to very specialized and unique species the type of which we are now watching in their demise. man can play a role to help keep these current niche species going, but some wont make it over the long term.

human intelligence and awareness coupled with increasing human population pressure (biomass) has set the stage for a new era of complex management issues. do we save the bugs in the swamp, or keep drinking water supplied to millions? we have complex responsibilities as stewards of the planet, we are witnesses to the current evolutionary and meteorlogical cycles, and we have to learn our way through this, or choose to ignore it as most do.


cecil, you dern near stole my thunder

Yeah, but all these North American mammals are due to loss of habitat and the fish due to overfishing and we aren't even close to being the most dense population center. If our American species are already stretched to this point they will soon be stretched even further. Those extictions probably weren't man made. Maybe a few major food sources like the mammoth but that's even in debate now. I'm not worried about global warming. It's bs. It's natural. It might be happening but we didn't do it so nothing we can do. I'm concerned with overpopulation(eat too many fish- hurts fish and mammals) and loss of wildlife habbitat when we are already barely able to support the species we have. I also don't like the trash on the beach.

I hear ya, brother.

This is an intelligent discussion, and I feel it's beneficial to put our thoughts out amongst peers.

However, should we move this thread to Family Talk?

Yes.

true, far off topic. I was thinking while in the shower as I often do, and someone said something about management principles and that is exactly how we have to think about this. We have to think in terms of habbitat, forage, structure, ect. We are like overpopulated bass. In america we are nice and healthy but close to overpopulation and are being hurt by the over populated people buying our food and evasive species illegally being stocked. Certain "fish" have way too many babies so we need some hybrids that can't reproduce. Either that or we need to start keeping some fish, ie, population controll. What are the big predators? Disease, famon, war, natural catastrophies. Makes you think.

well this is my last post on the subject, (everybody says yeah!!!) but i cant resist.

so take it one step further, What are we supposed to do? Some would have us living in mud huts and eating dandelion leaves and synthetic protein pellets…..go ahead and dig in. I for one am gonna keep catching fish, buying fish caught in the ocean, eating those fish, and driving my V8 truck. Like I said above, we are faced with complex management issues. The place I just visited, eagle lake, in the 1950’s was down to 20 fish that migrated to pine creek to spawn. There were 20 eagle lake trout left that could spawn in the second largest natural lake in CA! fish and game observed this and saved this species. In the first year, 1959, they captured these fish, and grew and released 200,000 fish from these 20 fish. 50 years later eagle lake is a thriving fishery and the eagle lake genes are distributed to lakes all over the western US. Where there is a will, there is a way. Salmon and shrimp are being farmed all over the world…..the optimism is that the entrepreneurial spirit, free markets, research and development, and innovative management approaches will keep things going as best they can given the population pressures. as far as solutions to population control....best left for another forum.

The population is the issue so if you don't discuss that you skip the root cause. I don't think anyone should be killed or anything crazy. The only ethical solution is for some people to stop having babies. I don't know if that's by choice or by force. That will be a very unpopular political platform. One day it will come to that. It may be in 50 years but that is the logical destination to our current course.

This is getting in the realm of threads which become divisive and argumentative. Let's call it quits. It's a pretty big jump from ponds to forced sterilization.