Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations coyotes killing livestock

Tim,

Howdy. Sorry to read about your problem. Like another poster, I have to wonder if those are really coyotes or possibly a pack of dogs gone wild with perhaps some coyote strain mixed in. We have lots of coyotes and actually I enjoy hearing their call to the hunt around sundown every day and their excited barking on the trail. I've never lost an animal to a coyote in over 30 years of cattle ranching.

The fact they attacked during the day is also an indicator to me that a wild dog influence is possible in your case. On my place, I've never seen a coyote hunt during the day....always the hunt begins at dusk.

Wild dogs are very common in my area as is a mixed breed dog/coyote looking animal. People just dump their dogs and cats out in the country when they no longer want them. Out of sight, out of mind, I suppose. It causes significant problems to the existing wildlife, local people, and the dumped animals themselves....but I digress.

Again, I'm sorry to read about your problem and hope you can find a solution. Good luck!

Does killing 100 coyotes accomplish anything really? Unless we exterminate the species (what's one more?) there will be a steady source of replacements.

I'll repeat that I don't take issue with controlling coyote numbers, but killing individuals just doesn't seem like anything more than misplaced vengeance. As someone already stated, coyotes reproduce to match available prey. Randomly reducing the coyote population only results in leaving more food for the remaining coyotes which in turn will have large litters because of high availability of prey. Vicious cycle.

It seems a better way to control coyotes numbers is in finding ways to limit their food source (prevent them from taking livestock), without killing them.

Killing individual coyotes doesn't solve the problem long term and may lead to higher coyote reproduction. Letting coyotes live but denying them access to livestock leaves them to the important role of controlling feral cats, coons, rodents, etc.

It seems to me that if you don't use fences, dogs, taste aversion, etc. that killing a million coyotes still won't keep your herd safe.

I don't keep livestock so I might have missed something obvious. Please tell me if that's the case.

If it were me I would look into learning some predator calling techinques.

Call your ag extension or Texas Parks and Wildlife they used to come out and trap or bait to get rid of them if they were causing problems for more than one rancher.

I may not be a country boy but I've lived around coyotes all my life. There are plentiful here in So Cal. In fact my parents have had two dogs killed by coyotes. And they were coyotes, not wild dogs, not dingos. The first occasion my mom saw the coyote feeding on their dogs carcass, on the most recent occasion their next door neighbor heard the ruckus and saw the coyote. The last dog that was killed was attacked mid morning (about 11:00). It was one coyote, not a pack. Coyotes are bold here in So Cal. My wife and I have spotted Coyotes running down the street on several occasions. Usually you spot them at dusk or dawn but we have spotted them at all times during the day. Some are real skittish and will disappear the second they see you others aren't hardly afraid of people at all.

You can generalize all you want but my experience with them is that they are opportunistic hunters, they will hunt any time, and they don't have to be in packs to hunt. They have no problems what so ever killing small to medium sized dogs in a one on one situation. If they live around a city they become acclimated to being around people quickly and they will view small dogs and cats as a food source. It would not surprise me at all that they would kill smaller livestock.

I took this photo in June of this year. I've always wanted to see the Rubicon trial head. So on a side trip to Tahoe we drove up a trial to see the Rubicon staging area. On the way back we spotted this Coyote. This guy was not afraid of us all all. He ran across the road as were driving out and stopped along side the road, turned and faced us, actually took a couple of steps toward the car then turned away and loped off. He did not appear to be intimidated by us at all.



Although I'm not particularly in favor of poisoning or traps that maim I also have never had to deal with repeated death of livestock. I have however had to bury two of my parents dogs (or what was left of them). I believe that they are intelligent and adaptable and would quickly learn how to take advantage of a new food source. They sure have around here.

On a positive note, since Coyotes are so plentiful here in California it has opened up an entirely new market segment...



Sorry, still had the image in my stockpile and besides how often do ya get to use a pic like this?

Last summer when we were shredding the fields at our deer lease, my Dad said that he saw 3-4 coyotes within 30 yards of him. I guess they were hoping that the mowing would scare a rabbit out of the brush and end up with an easy meal. My dad then figured out how to carry a rifle on the tractor.

I saw a coyote this summer when I was planting. He walked right down the road towards me and veered off at no more than 20 yards away, and of course I did not have a gun.

Well, how can any topic that has provoked this kind of response be inappropriate? Any outdoor enthusiast that does not realize the integrative relationship between pond/lake ecosystems and terrestrial wildlife is missing the most important aspect of wildlife management. No single component of the natural landscape stands alone...everything is connected.
Predator control will always bring out emotional opinion in any discussion. There are no universal solutions as most problems are highly localized and situation specific. I have spent 30 years in wildlife biology in many different regions of the US and predator-prey conflict has always dominated the projects. It has tremendous impact on all wildlife populations (including below the waterline) and domestic livestock.
I welcome personal emails from all Pond Boss followers and answer many questions every month. I will caution you, however, that I base my recommendations on science, real data, and positive results; exclusive of emotion or political correctness. During the course of my career, I have amassed volumes of personal photos & recorded documentation that has been used by various state & Federal agencies, including recently published BMP's.
Finally, in reply to the trapping comment concerning "indiscriminant maiming"--I am quite certain this individual has never met a professional trapper trained to target problem species OR witnessed a large mammal predator ripping the entrails from the belly of a screaming baby animal (domestic or wild) while the mother watches helplessly...I have, hundreds of times.

Email me,
Dan VS

Hey Dan, glad to have you aboard.

+1. Didn't get a chance to talk wicha at Arlington, but I really like your booth.

GW,
You are right...I allowed emotion to surface in attempting to demonstrate that nothing is more cruel to nature than nature itself. As far as being scientific, I have been called to hundreds of animal damage cases over the years and have more pictures and diary entries depicting that exact description of a kill than you would care to be bored with. In 90% of those cases, none or a small portion of the kill was eaten.
We (wildlife managers) always tend to favor the joyful rewards of our programs rather than deal with the ugly reality of things like predator control. When we takeover direction of an ecosystem, in whatever capacity, we must also assume responsibility for the negative shifts in population dynamics that follow. Like millions, Tim has injected livestock agriculture into a wild environment and must deal with the inevidable consequences.
Tim has got a severe problem resulting from unatural "learned behavior" of some predator and must get the right kind of help, quick.

THANKS to all for numbers of emails coming in,
Dan

Ah, Coyotes!

A critter you can really "love to hate".

Dan, could you give the biologist's point of view as to why a predator would risk injury making a kill and then not eat it? Do other predators exhibit similar behaviors? Come to think of it I believe some pond owners have talked about herons killing fish and not eating them. How common is this?

cool pic JHAP (the coyote that is... )

GW, i've seen my tomcat do it plenty of times with a variety of critters. perhaps its just animal instinct. also, perhaps the yotes dont perceive they are risking injury or what we perceive as risking injury.

come to think of it, in a way, humans do it all the time.

Just my opinion based on logic...if coyotes are normally noctural hunters and skittish of humans, then show no intimidation; he may be getting hungry. Something to think about.

I MUST SAY I AM SORRY FOR STARTIN A RUKUS WITH MY COMENT WHERE IS PB. BUT I AM AN OLD CONTRY BOY I HUNT TO EXSESE AND BLEADIN HARTS JUST GET ON MY NERVES :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Why predators kill, just to kill, without eating the prey is too complex to answer in a quick reply.
I have seen it in all mammal predators from feral cats to mountain lions. Even in the highly ordered wolf society- that's what got them in deep trouble with the cattle industry. No one minds a loss here or there if it is used in the food chain; but wanton waste is another issue.
Many times, the killer urinates or deficates on the uneaten carcass which indicates territoriality. Other times, they may "play" with the prey for hours before killing it. In my opinion, they often kill just because they have learned that they can.
We always do a stomach content on the wild predators we take/kill doing such damage, and more often than not, they are full to the point of regurgitating.
Feral or free-ranging domestic dogs & cats are a major threat to all wildlife as they will definately kill for "fun".

Predators and Prey

Sounds like a good topic for my future article in Pond Boss???????

Dan

Sounds like a great topic to me! It definitely has our attention.

Guys and Girls, Thanks as Always for your comments!!! This posting was not meant to ruffle feathers but to gain information. Dan I am glad you are part of this forum and appreciate your expert comments!! I have gotten in contact with a retired state trapper he will be out later this week. I think I now understand how this coyote problem may have gotten out of hand. There is a large sub-division within 2 miles of my place called Cape Royal(18 hole Golf course) that is about 1200 acres in size. Last year they had a wildlife biologist come in and do a survey of the deer population. The biologist determined that there was around 600 + deer living on that 1200 acres. The residents would feed the deer in their backyards which would keep the deer there and attract new deer into the subdivision. They became tame as a pet bunny rabbit. They had monster Boon and Crockett quality bucks laying in the flower beds and street medias.The biologist recommend trapping the abounded deer for relocation. I believe this over population of deer in the area brought in the overpopulation of coyotes. When they trapped and relocated the deer from the subdivision it left behind a bunch of starving coyotes. I love the wildlife and respect it. I feel that wildlife and humans can live together harmony in most cases. I realize that humans are more than likely the root cause of this problem. But I also believe that a person has the right to protect the personal property and I will do so with all means necessary. If it takes killing a 100 of them to do it, than so be it. I agree it is very easy to let personal emotions get involved. Having to explain to your own teenage daughter that her pet market show goat got killed or maimed by the coyotes or cleaning up the mess after their kill may change those minds of the people against killing them.

I have mixed emotions about this stuff.

I do not, and will not allow, anyone to come to my place who uses animals as target practice. I do quite a bit of deer hunting but, as a trophy hunter, seldom pull the trigger. I do wince at killing the best of the breed but understand that his genes are already distributed. I am teaching my 8 year old Grandson to be a woodsman but not to randomly shoot what he doesn't want to eat.

As Paul Harvey says; the rest of the story. I've seen starving deer herds in State Parks where no hunting was allowed. That's not pretty. I've also killed and walked away from sick or injured deer without respect for the letter of the law. I kill rattlesnakes and copperheads around the house or ponds but don't mess with them out in the brush. If a chicken hawk was getting my chickens (I don't have any), I would take action without regard to Federal law (Yep, it's illegal). If coyotes were getting my goats, I would take action. I'm not real impressed with the idea that "It's just nature". As the top of the food chain, I make all final decisions regarding the well being of livestock, wildlife and fish on my land or in my ponds. The government isn't here looking out for me.

I know guys that kill every rattlesnake, coyote, fox, skunk, armadillo and possum they see. That's their business and none of mine.

I also have a "feral" dog management program. Please keep Fifi or Fido at home.

I'm sure that coyotes take fawns and, if nature gets out of balance, I consider it my job to take corrective action. Taking that action is a man sized job without the use of traps, nooses, and poison.

Some areas of Texas have too many deer and those counties allow the killing of 5 per season. However, in those counties, few hunters take that many. A lot of hunters are looking to kill something/anything with antlers. OK, those guys are part of the problem instead part of the solution. The successful landowner who leases his hunting rights assures that hunters take the prescribed number. I seem to have a balanced deer herd and I figure coyotes may be partially responsible for that. Anytime I start seeing a lot of deer, I wonder if I am going to have a problem. Without coyotes, I would have to crop some deer. I wonder what the recruitment/survival rate of coyote pups is. Some of my fondest memories is watching coyotes stalk their prey. I could learn a lot from those guys.

Bottom line? Two things: Mama Nature is a mean bitch on both predator and prey. I could care less about what PETA or other dang fools think.

GW, I wasn't aiming at you. Just expressing my feelings about nature and my own "nature". I understand and can relate to your outlook.

I put PETA and people who use wildlife as targets in the same basket.

Well, I love animals about as much as anyone, so I guess I should put my .02 in. I believe as long as you THINK, and don't kill indiscriminately, then you will usually do the right thing. Before I so much as kill a bug or snake, I stop and think. It gets me out of the "automatic kill mode", and sometimes I reconsider.

The topic was coyotes, and it has moved a bit toward the general. 20 years ago, there were no coyotes in my area. They have expanded their range tremendously with the help of man. I guess they thrive on road kill, Sparkie, Fluffy, and occasional livestock. We have tipped the balance of nature, and the coyotes are coming in to restore it. Since it is us that brought the coyotes in, we're not changing the balance of nature by taking them out. We're just delaying it. I believe anyone in my area has a right to prosecute and persecute them should they be a threat. I think a high powered rifle is generally the most humane way to do it. Even if you miss, they are smart and get the message. I think traps and poison are inhumane, and should be used only as a last resort.

Here's more information about something I mentioned early, taste aversion. It's hard for me to understand why there isn't more interest in this approach. It seems to me like it is a low cost and effective way to minimize predation on livestock.

A quick review; you take pieces of whatever livestock you want to protect and use it as bait. It doesn't need to be from your stock, just the same species. You inject it with an odorless, tasteless compound that will make the predator sick shortly after eating the bait. The predator pukes it's guts out and learns that this prey is bad. It then teaches it's offspring to avoid that prey.

My girl Cindy told me about this when I brought up coyote control. She recalled a video that she had seen about a taste aversion experiment. The video was related to wolves that had been conditioned this way with mutton. After the wolves had been conditioned the researchers added live sheep to the enclosure. At first the sheep were scared and huddled in a corner. Then they noticed that the wolves were not stalking them and were even doing their best to avoid them. Cindy said that in the end the sheep were chasing the wolves around the pen. I should mention that Cindy has been a Veterinarian for almost 20 years. She graduated with the highest grade in her class (a gpa of 3.99).

Why in the world are people not looking into this more?

That's interesting GW, and it gave me a big chuckle. Wonder if that would work on water turkeys and GBH?

Birth control could also be a possible solution, but more long term and expensive I guess.