Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Documentary of a Texas Georgia Giant

Bill,

I don't have any problem at all with someone wanting to protect their product that they developed. Proprietary information and non-disclosure agreements are commonplace in my business. They are accepted, respected and virtually never challenged to have the protected info revealed.

As far as knowing what these fish are and what they will become, Deb has answered those questons to my satisfaction. For me, the GG's are the target fish....not the offspring. I will be a happy customer if they grow as others have experienced. Results are what I am after. Time will tell what those results will be...good or bad

Lots of pictures will be forthcoming from the TGG's....

If there were a Pond Boss Hall of Fame, Theo would be in on the first ballot.

Several thoughts and then I better get my butt to the office:

With Theo's math, I'm sure that Ken H had lots of failures along the way but stayed with it. He did have the advantage of others prior research which had to help. With that many permutations, the results would appear to be unpredictable and without documentation, positive results don't seem possible. I expect it is very well documented but I can't blame him for keeping his mouth shut. I have no idea what combinations of "stuff" and their mixtures go into Cokes, Dr. Peppers, soap and many other products and maybe it ought to worry me but doesn't. I have investigated Budweiser and it seems acceptable.

Ken has created, for lack of a better word, a mutt. Heck, some of my best, most productive dogs have been mutts and,looking into my own rear view mirror, I guess I am too. And, I turned out GREAT! Future inbred generations of the GG absolutely have to turn into something like European royalty. At least ponders can use Rotenone to make corrections if they choose or maybe turn some predators loose on them. But, he admits this and ponders need to understand their goals. I think he ought to emphazise this and maybe does.

Last, Theo is obviously more than just a pretty face.

Theo

You must have had a lot of longhaired dreams the night before. You make some very good points. I agree that you can have a number of different visible pairings. Genetics is very complicated and my knowledge is limited but I am not sure the math works like that i.e. quantum jumps in #s. But I understand your point on variation.

We need to get a genetics expert on the forum. I know that there are repetitive gene sequences in fish with very long lines of gene combos with certain alleles attaching at the same location and repeating over and over. The result being that for example when looking at a Fla. LMB vs. a Noth. LMB the gene sequence is very similar except at a few marker locations. In short while there may be thousands of possible combos based on the straight math of gene numbers, because they line up in repetitive sequences the numbers are reduced. I am not sure I can do this but here is a try ; while red 3 of diamonds could line up (pair) with many others ,for some reason red 3 of diamonds always and only lines up and pairs with black 2 of clubs and is always followed with black jack of spades ( not to be confused with Black Jack Kidd) and preceded by red queen of hearts. Among this sequence any other variation is fatal so you don't see them otherwise. This is however ,further complicated by the fact that different populations of say BG have genetic change over time through outbreeding depression, mutation and drift so that each population may be identifiably genetically different but still compatible and similar. It is safe to say that Lepomis genetics and their crosses is the most complicated thing I have encountered even more so than quantum physics for me.

DD wrote "At least ponders can use Rotenone to make corrections if they choose or maybe turn some predators loose on them. But, he admits this and ponders need to understand their goals. I think he ought to emphazise this and maybe does."

DD- this my friend is what got all this started. I feel from talking to his past clients this was not emphazied at all at least to those who are uninformed. But maybe things are changing with Deb around. I have never had a problem with the fish just the means in which they have been stocked.

Robinson you also mention having to start over every 3-4 years.

I agee with you and this is why we rec. only in a pond that you are willing to retool (drain) in a few years when Fx genrations get a strong hold.

"maybe a few channels"
You're getting positively cosmopolitan, PI!

In the interests of keeping this thread on track, i.e. on evaluating the facts of the performance of the GG, thought I would try a little test this weekend.

One of the characteristics that interested me in GG's was there reported aggressive tendencies. I don't need to wait a year to test that characteristic. I'm fond of a 10 cast test which I have used to measure comparative performance of LMB, F1 vs Florida. I'm going to try the 10 cast test this weekend on three ponds. One has coppernosed BG, another native BG and the third has the GG's...all at the same temperature. I'll report results Monday or so, if there are any to report. I'm guessing that the number of strikes and catches will be low in all three ponds, but the GG pond will have higher results. I'm basing that guess on observed fish feeding patterns since stocking the GG's.

ML :

Good point ! While there is much discussion and concern and question about the genetics of GG and for that matter HBG --about size ,growth, offspring, etc. -- that is not the main reason they are recommended . Studies clearly show that HBG (and I would guess GG) are easier to catch and more aggressive about feeding (even to the point of warning about them being fished out)-- that and not size -- is the main reason they are recommended by many managers and biologists in the right circumstances.

Robinson, I am Five years into stocking GG. Catching 1 to 1.5 lbs fish. Am I catching F-1 , F-2 or F-3 I don't know which is good, if they are losing vigor it is not showing.
No greensunfish, no three eyed monsters. Just a fun fish to grow, catch and eat.
ML, my favorite way to catch GG is an ultralight spinner with 1/8 oz roostertails. Lots of fun and a great way to teach kids to fish.

Thanks Robinson, yes following Kens suggestion I have a good Population of HSB and LMB which I agree is important in raising all types bream in a balanced pond. I would disagree that with the two years of research I put into stocking and talking to four of Kens long time customers(friends of mine, how I heard about Ken) that I took "all that risk". Also raising 1 to 1.5 pound bluegills are "simple to grow", that comment was a waste of bandwidth.


edit you would have to see Robinson's post to understand the bandwidth comment

Sorry Robinson you are right it is simple, I did not realize you were talking about stocking a bass heavy pond on purpose. My mistake was thinking we were discussing a balanced pond.

Robinson this is what I like about ponds and fishing there is no right answer. I am very happy with my pond and would not change it. All I can do is share my experiance and hope it will benefit someone else.
What I love about this site is the people all are pond lovers talking about their passion of ponds and wildlife. Good people, hard working people. The kind of people who pray for the Lusk family when their house burns down and tries to help them even though most have never met them. These are people I consider my friends.
That said I think you are a jerk. Sorry Bob band me from the board if you want to, had to say it. No one here knows everything, that is why we post. Don't tell me to drain my pond, don't tell me about my stocking mistakes don't tell me you know if I have F-1, F-2 or F-3s in my pond, don't tell me what I am catching, most of all do not imply I was taken in by a sales job, and no you have not given me tons of knowledge. No you are not the Moderator of Pond Boss
To my Pond boss friends sorry, most of you know I would not do this without some forethought, but Robinson has been a negative influence on this board since he started posting. It is not just this thread.
Had to say it, if anyone feels I have worn out my welcome please e-mail me. If many of you feel this way I will discontinue posting

RObinson, sorry but I do not agree with you. You do come off as a jerk. Bill I do not blame for saying that at all. You had a fine pond the wat it sounds. Robinson you have stole this thread when ML (yep I'm defending you) was trying to show what he has been up to with the GG.

I do not think it will turn out the way you say. He only stocked 250! I'm honest too and I think a few on here do not like me for it, but I can only hope I do not come off the way you have on this topic. You seem to know it all. I really do want to see what happens with these fish and so do others so take the negative attitude somewhere else.

Actually...I thought it was Deb's thread!

Off Topic but last night I was flipping around on the tv and stopped on the National Geo channel. They had a documentary on Hogzilla with a brief mention of the Ga Giants. There was film footage of Ken and the National Geo team of experts excavating the carcass of the giant hog known as Hogzilla.

As the credits rolled at the end, I saw "Special Thanks" to Debra King.

Kinda cool

Frank

Sorry Robinson has to put his tail between his cheeks.

He is right. End of story. These GG are marketing folks.

Pictures please? Some grainy picture of ONE extreme huge BG, and that is it. Forgetaboutit pictures showing growth. Even National Geographic had doubts about the hog. And they were very nice about it.

My point, you want hybrids like this then get them, they are fun no argument. Nothing special about them.

ML thank you for taking on this experiment. With the GG having been developed so long ago documentation has not been needed in a very long time. It has not even been asked for until I joined this forum a mere three months ago. But I certainly understand the need for photos and other proof. I appreciate the professionals on this board giving me the time needed, and again I appreciate ML stepping up to the plate to document. We should be draining the pond with the large GG's within three weeks for delivery (of the HSB that are in the same pond) to the customer in North Carolina. I will photograph, weigh, and measure these fish. As Cody suggested I will make a point to get some close up shots.
Thanks again for your patience.

Deb

Deb,

You are most welcome. I'm looking forward to spring and especially to next fall after one full growing season.

I doubt that any amount of pictures will have any effect on those whose minds are set on the negative....unless, of course, the pictures confirm their negative statements, and then they will go wild with "I told you so". Those folks should not be the point of this experiment, in my opinion. There is nothing scientific or knowledge seeking about their approach. Our knowledge benefits whether the results are postive or negative and people should not be ridiculed either way for attempting to gain knowledge.

People like me, who are looking for a speciality fish to bring smiles to kids and kids at heart are the ones who may benefit from any results I get and Gator may get, if he decides to join in.

The fact you are willing to put your fish on the line with this "public" experiment tells me far more than a few pictures will ever say. It interests me that the negative folks don't see (or choose to ignore) the risks you are taking by inviting participation in this experiment. If the results are even slightly positive, I suspect they will personally attact me...already several have done so. My own integrity has been questioned, even before the first picture was ever posted. Ridiculous statements about relationships, bill of sale alterations, water testing alterations, being "taken in" by a marketing ploy. Simply ridiculous. An experiment is something one attempts when the results are generally unknown...not when "hooked" by a marketing ploy.

The first post "Mr. Tony" above ever makes on this Forum jumps right in to the negative. Makes me wonder.

If folks were trying to warn me about making a stocking mistake, that would be different, very different. Of course, I would appreciate any such well intended advice. However, from the very first, that has not been the case....the attack has been on you, Deb, and on Ken and then when I agree to try them, on me personally.

To anyone who is open minded about the results of this little experiment, I hope you will stay tuned. The results are not "booked" or "cooked" and the experimenter (Meadowlark) is not "hooked".

I hope and request that the negative forces will back off some, at least as relates to this experiment. I would like to get the data and types of pictures that folks want...like Greg has requested....but the continued bombardment of negative injections make it very difficult, if not impossible, to focus on getting good data and freely discussing that data.

It is very discouraging to me that we can not discuss this openly with Greg and Bill Cody and Theo and EWEST and Dr. Dave and others without being bombed by negative "book it" statements. I greatly respect their opinions and would love to be able to get them any data they need to form their opinions. Their help in identifying data needed and in interpreting it is really needed.

Please allow this experiment to go forward without all the negative bombshells. Please allow an informed discussion of the facts. If the results are negative, then have your field day and say "I told you so". For now, please allow an orderly discussion to proceed. Thanks.

Question; how many regular posters on Pond Boss besides me and ML have GG stocked in their pond.

P.S. thanks for all the nice e-mails

Eastland, I know, I go all the way back to the old Pond Boss board. Until Deb started posting I was the lone defender of GG and got beat up pretty bad sometimes. Any of my "Hogs" that escape my pond will end up in Lake Sinclair which I am sure the fishermen would be pleased with.

My point about how many had stocked GG had more to do with all the "experts" post about something they have no firsthand knowledge of.

Lets not confuse GG and regular hybrid bream, even Bob Lusk now acknowledges it is a different fish and not the standard cross.

Is anyone else besides me getting bored with all the GG conversation?

Why not handle all this nonsense by PM's and save the evaluation of results in a final report?

Thank you George, I agree and I have been part of the problem. Let this thread be about ML test of GG and his reports back to us.

Thank you George. We should keep this one thread for facts/scientific info or related studies only. Let ML or anyone else who has info, but not opinions , report pics , weights, dates, and other biological results and keep the arguments , opinions and discussion on the other thread or start a new one. That way the facts/science will be here and anyone on either side of the subject who wants to is free to argue or discuss it on the other or another thread. This will of course depend on everyone's good will.

I have started a new topic, Georgia Giant Argument Clinic , for the purpose of "discussing" the merits and detriments of GGs and other hybrid sunfish. So nobody has to "take it outside," just next door.

That sounds like fun, Theo. Good idea. No holds barred, right?

I'm taking off the gloves.