Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Hook Shy

Hi all,
Sorry if I'm bringing up a topic that has been thoroughly discussed. I did a search and found some comments made concerning the topic, but didn't find a thread on it.
I have a couple of questions about this issue in my newly stocked catfish pond.
I stocked 200 channel cats Feb 04. They are now large enough to catch, but not large enough to harvest. I fished last Sat and caught 5 fish in about 5 minutes. They were fun to catch, and I thought about how much fun the kids would have catching these. If I allow the kids to catch and release, am I likely to make these catfish hook shy? Will I have problems 6 months from now trying to catch them when they're large enough to harvest? How good of a memory does a catfish have? Thanks for the info everyone.

Dusty

I have a pond that was originally stocked
with 700 catfish, and is rarely fished, maybe
twice a year. They bite fairly well each time
that they are fish for, but stop after that.
It takes 3 or 4 days for them to even get back
to accepting surface feed again. I had to
buy fish from a store last 4th of July for
a cookout, just couldn't get a thing to bite.
I'm guessing that some type of mass stress
condition from the hooking and catching of
a few fish affects the entire pond. But, some
of the fish are quite large and swimming
around with hooks and broken line still in
their mouth. Maybe there is some type of
communication going on there.

Dusty, my catfish are 4 or 5 years old and recognize a red and white plastic bobber. They are extremely hook shy. They will occasionally take a small bluegill or minnow but never prepared catfish bait or nightcrawlers.

Come on guys...catfish eat a LOT, and they can't resist shrimp. Don't try to fish with shrimp that are rotten & stinky, they want the fresh stuff ! Spend a couple $$$ on good food they like and you may be suprised. Also, take off that monster hook and 15 lb. test line, try 6 lb test and just enough weight to cast...they love to hit and run, light tackle makes it easy.

First time I've seen this thread when I had access to my fishing records...

We stocked 100 CC in 1 acre in Spring 2003. We didn't fish much the first year and I don't remember catching many cats.

In 2004 we caught 62 cats and removed 36 of them.

In 2005 (so far) we caught 52 cats and removed 11.

We have caught them on earthworms (nightcrawlers are best), liver, catfish tails, Powerbait catfish nuggets, a couple other types of prepared (general panfish type) baits, and several types of artificial lures. It is my belief that some of the remaining CC have been caught multiple times and others not at all. I do not think CC catch rates, when I am targeting them, have decreased over the last two years. My CC are fed regularly and withholding feed seems to increase catfish strikes, as you would presume.

This does not include any experience with older CC much over 5 lbs in weight.

The only time our CC are hook shy is when they aren't hungry from gorging themselves on fish pellets.

They refuse fresh shrimp, nightcrawlers, blood/stink bait - you name it.

But turn off the feeders for a few days and you can slaughter them on anything that looks like a pellet.

We are in the process of ridding them from the pond if possible - we overstocked and they have become pests at 6 to 8 pounds.

They don't become hook shy when they are hungry, based on my experience

George Glazener

Dang, George, wonder if that could possibly apply to other fish as well...

Thanks guys,
I used liver, not the good stuff, and the fish were voracious. I was only fishing to check out the growth, but I couldn't help but think about how much fun those kids would have catching fish that easily. I think from what I've heard that as long as I'm not constantly hooking them, they should be fine. Especially if I starve them for a while!

I've occasionally fished mine for several years and only have about 15 left. If they see a bobber, they sometimes quit taking pellets. Mine are definitely hook shy. If I do catch one, I can assure you that it will be the only one.

Meadowlark, I think we are finally starting to see things eye to eye. I know "turning off feeders" won't be a popular approach, but I welcome the challenge to those who feed, vs those who strive for a naturally heavy forage base. With a heavy forage base, natural instincts remain at a "peaked" level, inviting fish with artificial baits. Programmed feeding is for commercial operations. With that being said, I do take a coffee can of feed to my fish every time I visit, it's a treat

p.s. I'm not discounting the value of feeding, I'm targeting the aggressive behavior of fish and simply don't understand the "Hook Shy" theories.

My late uncle had a very small catfish pond and hand fed with pellets. There were several large ones with many tears etc in mouth from being hooked repeatedly. We would fish with large cane pole and piece of weiner 1 in. long after he fed. Always caught them.

First off I pellet feed almost every day. My primary fish are tilapia and pacu. Each time I fish the first strike is a pacu and whether I catch it or not, it is the last pacu strike of the session, in fact they may take several days. I have fished them after skipping a meal with the same result. The tilapia on the other hand, will bite for an hour and a half, maybe 15 fish, after that the smaller fish are the only takers, but will continue to bite. The pacu are a schooling fish, could have something to do with it. Also, I am starting to recover hooks from tilapia that I have lost in the bamboo cover.

Was reading threw this old thread. My fish are extreamly hook shy, not so much the catfish because if I dont feed them just one day they bite. Its the bass, I actually dont like them. I cant catch any, not even small ones, they do not bite anything. I can see them cruzing, I see them blow up on sunnys, eat dragon flys, etc but I cant catch them anymore, them or the hybrid stripers. I bet if I quit feeding the stripers they would bite. Maybe my bass do have enough food, I dont know. Someone mention tiger bass? What are they, are they more agressive. Speaking of hybrids would it be possable to cross a striper and a LMB? Now that might be something.

And who said that fish are dumb or cannot not learn? Sometimes giving the LMB or hook shy fish a rest period of a couple months or more can help increase catchability. Although catchability is short lived. One of the big disadvantges or down sides of CATCH & RELEASE fishing is producing fish that get increasingly hook smart. Now that you have learned some valuable lessons about fish management, you may have to eventually consider renovating the pond and starting over.

Hey Joey, the catfish will also wise up.

Thanks Bill,

Oh there not dumb and definatly are able to learn.. there maybe little stupid because if they dont start biting a little they just might find themselves floating... and I will stat over! I just hat the thought of killing all those fish. I will lay off fishing for them for a while, see if that works. Actually there is a fish truck coming close tomarrow and I am getting a few coppernose and 2 or 3 pounds of fatheads. I may just fish a while with the fat heads and see if I can get any crappys or skinny bass, then after that I wont fish!

I will let you all know what I thought of the coppernose tomarrow. there 1 - 3 inchers from Dunns.

Dave, ya but the cats have a weakness.. they come up to eat there pellets. Fake pellets and then if that dont work and I have to get rid of them or thin them the 22 comes out...hehhe

Joey - I would remove any LMB that you catch with FHM. Save some for extended fishing over the next couple weeks. Make room for new LMB to enter the fishery.

I have a cage its pretty big but its like a thin wire type. You think the fatheads will live in that for a while? I will take all these bass out that I can catch. I tell ya, I was so hesitant to do it but I am from now on and yes make room. Thanks

Joey, By all means the FHM will live for weeks in the cage that you describe. To maintain the good body condition of the FHM while in the cage, take some of the fish pellets that your pond fish won't eat, and crush them and feed this pelletized meal to the fatheads every day or two. FHM should readily eat it and will then do fine in the cage. Another and easier option is to add a few hard pellets to the cage. The pellets will eventually soften and the minnows will continually peck at the pellets until pellets are gone. Maybe try both methods.

I recommend that you use a light 4lb-6lb line leader attached to the minnow with minimal or no weight. Also "maybe" try fishing the minnow suspended below a slender bobber (tiny split shot needed here). Use a smallish, aberdeen thinwire hook No. 6 and a No. 8 if your water is real clear. A no. 4 hook is okay if your bass are dumb. Try hooking minnow below dorsal fin, through the lips or from behind, underneath just nicking the body above the anal fin. If you are keeping LMB then let the bass have the minnow for a couple seconds, to be sure of a good hookset. Another trick is to hold back extra minnows in the cage and a couple minutes before you fish, release a couple dozen minnows then start fishing fishing. You may be surprised what you catch.

You and many others should subscribe to Pond Boss magazine. Dr Willis and I had an article in the Mar-Apr 2006 issue about catchability of LMB and how to reduce some of the problems you are having - here is the listing from the 2006 Magazine contents: LARGEMOUTH BASS ANGLING AND CATCHABILITY. D.Willis & B.Cody look into how angler catches can monitor your LMB, and what affects angling has on their catchability. The article discussed the problems that you are having with your LMB.

I subscribed to the PB mag 2 weeks ago. Got my first issue a couple days ago.

I put the FHM in the cage they are doing fine. I let about half go before I put in the CNBG. I wrote a little report about the fish truck I got them from this morning. Thanks again.

Joey -- if you want to send me your email address, I can email you a copy of that article that Bill mentioned.

Thank you Bill and Dave, I got to read your artical on Catchability. Its excellent. I thought I would copy and post it for everyone.



Largemouth Bass: Angling and Catchability
Dave Willis and Bill Cody
Are largemouth bass “smart?” Well, that probably depends on who you talk to and what
they are doing. So, we won’t try to answer that loaded question. However, we do believe that
largemouth bass can learn from their past experiences.
In this article, we want to discuss two inter-related topics for pondmeisters. First, we will
discuss how angler catches can be used to monitor largemouth bass populations in ponds. Then,
we’ll get into the effects that angling has on largemouth bass catchability. High angling effort
can throw a wrench into using your ability to use angling catches to track density or the relative
sizes of your largemouth bass.
Angling to Monitor Bass Populations
We designed a study to assess angler-catch information for largemouth bass in nine South
Dakota ponds. The ponds ranged from less than 1 to almost 20 acres. All ponds were “sampled”
by angling and also with our electrofishing boat. The boat has a generator that produces
electricity, and a control unit that allows us to regulate how much electricity is used to stun the
fish. Electrofishing is most effective at night and is accepted and widely used by fishery
biologists as a standard method for monitoring largemouth bass populations. Earlier in our
study, we used what is known as a “mark and recapture” technique to actually estimate the
number per acre for largemouth bass in each pond.
Not surprisingly, as the numbers of largemouth bass increased in the ponds, anglers also
caught more largemouth bass per hour of angling (Figure 1). When bass density was low (50-
2
250/acre), we caught only 2-5 bass per hour of angling. When bass density was moderate (900-
1300/acre), we caught 6-8 bass per hour. When bass abundance was the highest (2100/acre), we
caught an amazing 19 bass/hour.
Biologists and pondmeisters often want to know the numbers and sizes of largemouth
bass in a pond or lake. In our 9-pond study, we compared the sizes of bass caught by angling to
the sizes we caught in our electrofishing samples (Figure 2). Once again, we were pleased with
the results. When electrofishing indicated that very few bass in the pond were greater than12
inches, anglers caught a low percentage of bass over 12 inches. The four ponds that contained
lots of smaller bass were classic examples of “stunted” (high density, slow growing) bass
populations.
When electrofishing indicated that moderate numbers of largemouth bass were 12 inches
or longer, then anglers caught more medium sized bass. In the one pond with primarily larger
bass, 90% of the bass caught by electrofishing were 12 inches or longer. At that pond, 94% of
the bass caught by anglers were also 12 inches or more. [Which pond do you want to fish?]
Results of this study showed that sampling of bass by angling can provide a pretty good estimate
of the numbers and relative sizes of bass that are present in a pond.
The key to our success in this study was that the ponds were either unfished or lightly
fished. Several fisheries studies have shown that largemouth bass exposed to high levels of
fishing pressure do become more difficult to catch. The conditioning (or learning) of the bass to
avoid fishing lures throws a wrench into the concept that angling can be a good sampling method
for largemouth bass. Next, let’s explore some evidence that “experienced” bass become harder
to catch.
3
Largemouth Bass Catchability
Researchers at the Illinois Natural History Survey completed an interesting study on this
topic. First, let’s look at their study design. They used three ponds, all about 0.2 acres in size.
All ponds were stocked with the same number (420/acre) and the same sizes (9-13 inches) of
largemouth bass. After the bass were stocked, they waited 2 weeks before fishing began. They
then varied the amount of fishing pressure at each pond (low, moderate, and high). All fishing
was catch and release. At the end of the 3-month study, only two bass had died. One was lost in
the low-pressure pond, and one in the high-pressure pond.
In the low-pressure pond, fishing amounted to 170 hours/acre, and anglers caught 3.0
bass per hour. In the moderate-pressure pond, anglers fished 340 hours/acre, and caught 1.2 bass
per hour. In the high-pressure pond, angling was 680 hours/acre of water, and they only caught
0.4 bass per hour. The more experienced bass in the higher pressure ponds certainly learned, and
were less likely to bite.
In the second part of the same study, researchers stocked each of three small ponds with
75 bass per acre. During the next 49 days, each pond received 23 sessions of catch and release
fishing. Each session, Pond A was fished for 0.8 hour, Pond B for 1.6 hours, and Pond C for 3.3
hours. Figure 3 shows what happened. As fishing pressure increased, fish became harder to
catch. Near the end of the study, no bass could be caught in Pond B or Pond C. The best bass
fishing occurred and the catch rate of bass persisted throughout the study period in Pond A,
which had the shortest fishing sessions (0.8hr/ac). The bass seemed to learn more from the
length of fishing sessions rather than the number of times the pond was fished. Again the more
experienced the bass became, the harder they were to catch.
4
Potential Solutions?
So, what the heck can a pondowner do to combat this learned behavior of largemouth
bass? We have a few suggestions.
The first “solution” would be for pondowners is to vary fishing technique. While this
certainly does not solve the problem, it can help. New techniques with different types of lures
are more likely to catch bass than the methods that have previously been used in the pond. Live
bait often will help to catch the older and more experienced fish, but remember that circle hooks
or using larger hooks can greatly reduce the hooking mortality by reducing the chance of a bass
swallowing the hook.
A second “solution” is when you fish, fish each time for shorter periods of time. This is
especially true if you have a smaller pond. The longer bass are exposed each time to fishing
pressure the wiser they become. Spend some of your extra time fishing for other types of fish in
the pond – maybe the panfish or catfish. Spend more time managing the fish by keeping track of
their numbers, checking weights or measuring lengths and focus on removing selected fish to
improve the balance of the overall fishery.
Our third “solution” borders on sacrilege! Perhaps we should consider eating some of the
bass! While harvest may seem strange after years of kissing and releasing your bass, some
turnover in the population will probably help angling catch rates. New or younger bass will not
be as “experienced” or as cautious as the old timers. A pondmeister with a typical Midwestern
pond might have 50 pounds/acre of largemouth bass in a 3-acre pond, for a total of 150 pounds.
What if 30 or 40 pounds of bass were filleted and eaten per year? That harvest would allow for
turnover in the population because with harvest of some older and wiser bass there would be
5
room for new bass to grow into the adult population. Plus, that level of harvest would not affect
predator-prey relations in a pond that contained 150 pounds of bass.
Always remember the concept of selective harvest. Which bass are the most experienced
or the most abundant and thus best suited for harvest in your pond? Do you need to primarily
harvest bass less than 14 inches long? Maybe only bass between 12 and 16 inches long should
be harvested? The appropriate harvest will vary by 1) what is in your pond and 2) your
management goal. If you are most interested in producing larger bass, then you probably should
concentrate your harvest on the smaller bass (although the big ones may become tough to catch).
If you are managing for a high-quality bluegill population by purposely crowding your
largemouth bass, then perhaps you should have less total harvest of bass, and be sure that all 8-
12 inch bass are protected. Harvest the occasional big and smart bass to keep the bass catch rates
at a higher level.
Sacrilege indeed! Good fishing to all.
References
Isaak D.J., T.D. Hill, and D.W. Willis. 1992. Comparison of size structure and catch rate for
largemouth bass samples collected by electrofishing and angling. The Prairie Naturalist
24(2): 89-96.
Mankin, P.C., D.P. Burkett, P.R. Beaty, W.F. Childers, and D.P. Philipp. 1984. Effects of
population density and fishing pressure on hook-and-line vulnerability of largemouth
bass. Transactions of the Illinois Academy of Science 77(3-4): 229-240.

These are some comments about small birds commonly called "finches" from around the world. Over the years, we've probably had 100 different species and so have had a good opportunity to look at different behaviors.

One thing that we have noticed is vastly different abilities to "learn". Brain cells take more energy than other cells and so if a species doesn't need more brain cells, it won't use the energy to produce them.

The "smartest" birds are those that must forage in a large variety of habitats where they never know where there next meal or drink will come from. In general, these are desert birds. The "dumbest" birds are those that live where the climate is constant. These tend to be tropical wetland species.

I think this idea translates into fish also. Species that live in big lakes where everything is the same tend to not be as "smart" as those species that live in a changing environment such as a river that floods and drys up in an irregular schedule.