Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Diversity(pond life, that is)

It's raining today due to effects of whatever storm system that's coming through. I've lost track this year. I can't work outside so I'll post the following question for what it is worth. I believe if pond owners could be granted just one wish, high on the list would be additional fish species diversity in their pond beyond the normal bream/bass (for most) combo. The one advantage reservoir or really large lake fishing offers is species diversity. I realize some of that diversity would never be desired in a pond. However, wouldn't it be great for a crappie to be developed that was not so prolific or spawned later? Wouldn't it be neat to have a channel catfish that pegged out at 2 pounds or so to offset their ultimate size disadvantage of being in a pond? Yea, you don't get something for nothing, but I would give up some bass and bream to have additional species that would not create tremendous management problems. Just thinking out loud. You know, this forum is just like having an electronic edition of Pond Boss when you want it!

There are some that come to mind. Rainbow trout, although seasonal make for some fun fishing and if sotcked in Novmeber you get 7 months or more of fun and then they might end uo as bonus food for bass. HSB also in the right conditions are a blast. Crappie are ok if you watch what you doing and have a slightly bass heavy pond. There are ways currently to diversify if you like.

faw,

This is a topic I love. It stirs the imagination. Also creates strong feelings in some that we should only be allowed to have the "conventional" in ponds. They are missing out; diversity in ponds is a great thing. Trying out new ways, even greater.

We have a great diversity available to us in ponds right now, much of which is untapped by the average pond owner.

Tilapia is a good example to me. Very much under-utilized in ponds. HSB is another. What a remarkable fish they are. Gizzzard shad, in the right conditions, can be wonderful. I'm stocking rainbows this year for the first time and eagerly awaiting that event.

The efforts of man to produce new, better models of fish has worked to some extent, and maybe the GG's are an example of one of those, but I tend to believe that we have models out there already naturally ocurring that would be great pond fish, we just haven't tried them yet.

For example, the Pacu may be a far better fish than the GC ever pretended to be (may not also), we just haven't vetted them out yet in ponds. Rad is trying out the baramundi as a predator. Don has the peacock bass. One fish I would love to try in ponds is the red fish. They have survived and even flourished in some fresh water lakes in Texas. Can you imagine the thrill of casting to a big red in shallow pond water.

We are only limited by our minds.

faw, as many people on this forum know, we have a high diversity in our 4-acre lake. We have 20 species in fact. Meadowlark is talking about all kinds of exotic species but you don't need to do that to add diversity.

One key to this is to add non-breeding species. HSB are an example of this. Another is to not insist on having species just because they are good to eat. Remove those restraints and look at all of the species that are available to us.

Depending on the part of the country a person is from, here are some possibilities. Spotted bass, SMB, pickeral, shovelnose sturgeon, goldeye/mooneye, skipjack herring, various shad species, golden shiners, carp, various suckers (I personally like shorthead redhorse), freshwater drum, pure white bass, many different sunfish species such as red-ear sunfish, red-breast sunfish, pumpkinseed, spotted sunfish, rock bass, warmouth, roanoke bass, and sacramento perch.

Certainly not all of these species will work in every situation but enough of them will to offer many possibilities.

Very good thread. Very accurate statement about the wish. I bet there aren't many who would want only 2 or 3 species forever.

According to my experience, grass shrimp are under utilized as a forage species. They are great breeders, and survive droughts well. All fish feed on them with relish. Down side, they need some areas with grass and weeds for cover.

Grass pickerel are probably a little finicky, but this little fresh water barracuda is very acrobatic when hooked on a plastic frog. Down side, (I have heard and deduced) they need clear water with plant cover.

ML

I'm with you. Red Fish would be perfect.....no breeding in fresh water and what a preditor!!!.....and a taste to die for. My last water garden in south Louisina I had a red fish for a year and latter released it in the city park pond..........some kid must of had a thrill hooking this guy(24 inch plus). Wish the state would consider allowing private stocking of red Fish from their hatcheries!!

LakeL,

Did you catch one from the salt and move it to your water garden? If so, did you have to take the fish through the salinity change gradually, or just pop it into the fresh water?

ML, Norm, bobad,
Got your message. You've mentioned species I didn't know existed. I'll bet a redfish would totally destroy my grandson's Snoopy reel.

Just what is it that people love about crappie? I think more people ask questions regarding crappie addition to a pond environment than probably any other species. I guess it is because they are good to eat and relatively easy to catch. On the rivers around here, that is the one time of the year it seems everyone fishes, when the crappie are "running" in the early spring.

faw,

I think it's the eating...surprisingly "eating" qualities are very high on many folks lists for desirable fish characteristics. We had a thread several months back (years?), that discussed the preferred characteristics of "sport fish" and many, many people list eating qualities as one of the top ones...suspect they have never caught or tried to eat a Tarpon

I feel that catfish are the same way, i.e. they are in ponds mostly because of their eating qualities, but with $1 per pound catfish available in my area, it does not make any sense for me to allocate limited pond space to them.

Norm said it best in his post, "Another is to not insist on having species just because they are good to eat".

Norm makes an excellent point, there is so much talk about our primary fish that we tend to overlook many others.
I live in an area where any warm water fish would be at home. So it is little suprise that Thailand is a large producer of tropical fish, most all of which I could introduce into my pond. We have species from all over the world. However, with the exception of carp, tilapia and catfish, little that is available to you, is available to me. I have angel fish, rohu, pacu, silver barb, red tilipia, nile tilapia, oscar, giant gourami, albino catfish, common carp, jullien's golden-price carp, transverse-bar-barb and golden belly barb along with an assortment of unk. fish. I visited the government hatchery at the end of the season and, without my knowing, they gave me a a little of what was left, most of those above. Several have spawned. I guess that I could worry about them escaping into the ecosystem, but the walking catfish and snakehead fish would probably rejoice.
When you really get to looking there are so many more animals involved than fish. I had a 3' monitor lizard show up yesterday.

ML
I caught the fish in brackish/fresh water so I took the risk and if it died well it be dinner.........seem to be just fine but was a bit of a bully in the rather small pond over time was difficult to keep enough forge for it to eat.

I suppose the main reason people want a more diverse pond is the intrigue of not knowing exactly what fish is on the line until it is seen, or the mystery if it breaks the line. I understand general laws prohibiting importation of alien species (did everyone see the picture of the python/alligator duel in the everglades!). However, I've wondered why some states require sterile grass carp while an adjacent state may not. Certainly grass carp escape pond confinement and are released into water systems contiguous to several states. I've never heard any discussion of grass carp causing problems in public waterways. Being a river fish, I suppose they could multiply in river systems of this country.

faw,

We've had some bad experiences with grass carp in public waterways of Texas. In Lake Conroe, a prime lunker LMB fishery north of Houston, grass carp were heavily stocked to get rid of hydrilla...well in the process, they "denuded" the entire lake and as a result, recruitment dropped and LMB fishing suffered tremendously.

They have also been verified to be reproducing in the Trinity river...tripolid or not, some have escaped to that river and are reproducing. The problem they cause, IMO, is the complete elimination of vegetation...some vegetation is needed.

We had an interesting post several months ago, started by Norm, I think, in which several folks discussed the various state regulations. It was very interesting and almost came down to the old red state, blue state thing...i.e., states like Texas allow individual freedoms and accountablity in ponds whereas other states are very strict and exact complete Government control over pond activities. I think I remember correctly, that Bz in Mn. could not even catch what he wanted, when he wanted and in the numbers he wanted in his own pond....had to adhere to state regs. The differences were simply amazing from state to state.

The rational for dropping the triploid requirement on GC's in NE was that they had already escaped and were breeding in the river systems here, there was no point in contiuing the restriction once they were established up in the river systems.

How about diversity other than just fish? We have lots of bull frogs, a few leapord frogs and we even see an occasional tree frog. We have lots of painted turtles and even a few snappers as well. A few weeks ago while fishing I was treated to a close encounter with a mink along the face of our dam. One of the things my folks like to do is bird watch and the pond attracts a great diversity of birds to it, the spring duck migration is one of their favorite things regarding our pond.

Excellent point SHORTY...how about grass shrimp, do you have those? They happen naturally here in my ponds, hang out in the weeds. The fish absolutely love them. I can take a scud fly ( a grass shrimp imitation) and catch every species that is in my ponds...including HSB. It's a total blast!

No grass shrimp that I know of, I'm not even sure I know what a grass shrimp is, we do have crawdads in the pond, both the LMBs and BGs love them. We also have snails and small leeches as well, about the only time I see the leeches is durring the summer when they attach themselves to the inside roof of a LMBs mouth. We do have a wide variety interesting inscects, I occasionaly see some sort walking stick in the water that's 3" long, we also have thousands of dragon flies in 4-5 different variety's every summer. We have several king fishers that make their daily meals of small BG's caught out of the pond in the summer. I even once saw a blue heron down a 9" BG, man did that look funny going down it's throat.

My pond is fed by a creek and a spring so it has a lot of different forage fish in it. When it was drawn down this summer it was easy to collect and see what was in there. It has three kinds of Dace, a smaller form of Shiner, a Scullion, a Darter, and some Manatoms that I’m hoping weren’t baby Bullheads. Those were all occurring in the creek so now they are in the pond. In addition there are a ton of carp from 2 to 10 inches (big ones died or I removed when the pond was down) Adult BG, RE and Red Breast sunfish that were added late summer, along with a few hundred crayfish. Currently I only have 6 large predators 4 Musky and 2 Bowfins all over a foot long.

The adult sunfish should be put a bit of a dent in the minnow population. My theory is that the supper predators will focus on the carp since they are a bigger source of protein then the minnows and easier to swallow then the sunfish. Eventually despite all that diversity I think I will wind up with 6 predators and a few carp in the 8 to 20 pound range and not much else. On the bright side all I need is 8 pounds for a state record Bowfin.