Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Legal Issues.

If this is the wrong forum to post this in, please move it to the appropriate one.

Been coming here as a lurker on and off the past year since moving onto my wifes family property. We moved into an old farmhouse situated on a 20+ year old farm pond, about a football field in size.

A few months back we caught someone seemingly snooping around the edge of our property. Found out they were the owners of the land adjacent to ours. Across their property flows the creek that fills and maintains fresh water going into our pond. Their property also has a low lying area that is very swampy but uphill from our pond that part of the creek water comes from.

We found out that they are planning on cutting a driveway right up the side of our property line and that the owner told us his plan was to divert the creek that fills our pond, and he wants to backfill the swamp area, so that its not swamp anymore. And also that unless WE were to pay for the proper drainage on HIS property to keep the creek filling the pond, that we would just have forget about the creek providing said water into our pond anymore.

When we asked for who was surveying his property we were told he would have them contact us at a later date. At that time he was using an old fence line to lay string to mark the property line, and he warned us not to cross said line. Today I just watched as he started planting stakes with survey ribbons up the side of our property. There has been no surveyers out along the property as I have noticed.

I live in the state of GA and believe we have laws preventing the divertion of waterways to how and where they enter onto someone elses proptery, but I am not sure on the actual letter of the law. We have another creek bed further downhill from the pond that we believe he is aiming to divert the water to. Can he legally do this?

I have a digital camera and believe I should start taking pictures before anything else happens. But other than that, where do I go, what do I do, and who should I contact?

Ouch. If he's really planning on filling in a swamp (wetland) and diverting a stream, he better have the proper permits to do so. I'd make it my business to find out, i.e., check with NRCS and maybe mention that it might involve a US Army Corps of Engineers allowance.

Otherwise, talk to him...see what turned him into such a b******, anyway...oops, sorry. Might outta at least discuss what it would take for him to not make such a mess for you...either way, I'd still let somebody else know what he plans.

In several states it is illegal to affect the flow of water onto your neighbor's property and as Matt stated, filling in a "wetland" is a big no-no without the proper permit (see discussions on Army Corps of Engineer permits). But before you sic the USACOE on them, make sure your pond was built legally (old pond probably isn't a problem, but might want to check.)

I'm not a lawyer, so I would check with one before taking my advice.

Riptides99, here are some of my thoughts. I'm sure as the evening progresses, others will continue to give suggestions.

1) You may have less time than you think if he's putting stakes out now.

2) You need a copy of your survey. If you don't have one, you should be able to get one from the township or county offices. If they don't have one, you may need to have one done which may cost a few hundred bucks.

3) Ideally, if you could have good relations with your neighbor, it's usually best. But before having discussions with him, it's best to know exactly where you stand if you have to get medieval on his ass.

4) Getting the NCRS or ACoE involved could be good and bad for you. Once your pond is on their radar screen, you could be prohibited from doing things in the future.

5) A lot of times, property lines have certain restrictions or rights of way associated with them. Without knowing what these are, you are at a big disadvantage.

6) If he really wants to redirect the creek, it may not be as simple as he thinks. You may be able to offer to help him install a culvert so that his driveway can go over the existing creek. I don't know if it's even feasible without knowing your plot of land.

7) As you know, having a pond is one of the greatest things. Don't let this sucker take that away from you!

Good luck and please give updates.

As far as his attitude, he is over 60, retired, and acts as if he has a lot of pull regarding county politics. We have an old county gravel road that cuts across part of the backside of our property that he has continually stopped from being paved.

His son built a home off that gravel road, on said adjactent property, a few years back before Wife and I moved in, the back of which looks right at our home. Wife told me (before she was my wife) after the son moved in, they were constantly on our property (before it was ours) taking walks around the pond and actually called the police on my wife and her brother for riding 4-wheelers on our property. Wife's brother is planning on building him a home on the other side of the pond eventually, and whenever he takes a notion to clean out some of that brushy wooded area, build a fire, and drink a few beers the police tend to show up, but cannot do anything because he always obtains the proper permits to burn.

With that out of the way, what jurisdiction in the NRCS would this fall under? There seems to be scads of departments, or should I contact their main office in my state? I am really clueless on how to even begin to approach this if this neighbor starts bulldozing tomorrow.
Listed NRCS Departmental Specialists

Send a letter to the Ga EPA that wetlands are being filled in they will take care of the rest. I'm a developer in Ga and they are on me about silt in state waters and they are Bulldogs(not the good kinds).
Also see if any permits have been granted from the county.
What county are you in?

I believe, from what my wife and her family has told me, that the Corps of Engineers were very much involved in the building of said pond with her Great Grandfather during the 1970s. They (CoE) also did the survey for the pond. I don't have, nor have come across, any legal paperwork regarding this, I may need to check with other family members. We are living in her great-grandparents old home and had to clean out a lot when we moved in and if I had come across anything like that (surveys and such) I would have saved it.

As for the property, it is between 12-13 acres total, and is roughly around 2 acre(N to S) wide by 6 acre long (E to W), has a bit of a fishbelly to it (northeast end) and situated between said unpaved county road, and another paved road from where our access is. As for the lie there is a main creek running along the entire southern property line that our pond and another creek drain into, this is the lowest side of the property. The rest of the property runs pretty much uphill to the northern side. There are 2 other homes on this property as of now, her parents and grandparents. We have plans to eventually subdivide the property between everyone as her father wishes to bulid him a new home, and her brother wishes to do the same as well in the future.

I am trying to get an old arial photograph painting, digitally photographed to show on this site, give me a few minutes and I can post it up.

20 years ago it was probably DNR not the CoE involved. What county?

Where's Jersey? He's GOT to have info and opinions on this.

Paulding County, Georgia.
Pond I believe, was built in early 70's.
Photo taken in 1984.
We are trying to find out now who exactly was involved with survey and building of pond.

Thanks for replies thus far.



EDIT1: The big red barn is the highest point on our property, we assume the neighbor wishes to build his home behind it. The drive coming down from the barn is the dividing ridge along our property it runs downhill on either side of the drive. The 2 main houses pictured are hardly viewable from either household except along the main driveway side.

EDIT2: Wasn't Jersey the one having the troubles on building a new pond earlier this year on the E. side of Atlanta?

Paulding is good it is now part of Atlanta and is harder to develop. I would not worry about your pond it is probably grandfathered in to any Regs.

Is the stream an all weather stream i.e. does it always flow

I would sent a certified letter to every one you can think of, land owner, EPA, DNR, CoR, FEMA(flood plain maps), Congressman, Head of planning and Development, every county commissioner, and county attorney,CC everybody

How about the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture Soil Conservation Service.

Wife just got the paperwork from her father.

Survey Prepare date is 08-07-70 for 12 acres.

We also have a GA Dept. of Public Health Permit to Impound Water. This lists the area of water as 0.5 acres, 7ft deep at dam, dam length of 330ft. Date of water Impounding to begin 10-05-70.

Trying to procur a scanner to get these documents into the computer. Also thought pond was bigger, but then again I've never been good on measurments.

EDIT: Yes, the creek flows all year long, even with the lack of rain here for the past 6 weeks or so. Also our county commisioner, Jerry Shearin, whom I personally have worked for, built his platform on turning Paulding County into a water conservation county, he is trying to get a resivour built in the NW side of the county.

Riptides, You need to research The Wetlands Preservation Act (16 U.S.C. 44401-4414). I think your neighbor would be in violation of the afore mentioned law. If his swampy area is used by wood ducks or any migratory waterfowl, I'm positive he would be in violation.

I would do everything Bill Duggan says. And, I would do it tomorrow. I might even call Pres. Bush. He's a pond owner and Pond Boss subscriber.

Also talk to the local Ducks Unlimited(AKA the Southeast branch of the socialist party)club they would love this.
Thats looks bigger than .5 acres
It being a year round creek is better

RipTide,

I think you have a lot of room to maneuver here, but, just on the outside chance your neighbor becomes a complete ass...what exactly is he asking you to do in order to preserve the water flow?

IE. Does he expect you to buy him an inexpensive culvert? From the looks of the picture - it seems that a simple drainage system running under his road would cost (both of you) a lot less than filling in the wetlands and building a raised road...

Gator

Dave, does the Prez answer the phone when you call him ?

Rip, disturbing wetlands is a big No-No, he doesn't have a chance in hell of achieving his goals unless the whole GA system is corrupt. Beat him to the punch and apply for a permit to max out your pond. Then, do the smart thing, get a Lawyer...to ease the pain of that, tell your neighbor, then have your Lawyer call him regarding his intentions. $300 for a phone call and you'll be sleeping easy.

From what I can remember, he stated he was going to put in a corrigated pipe underground diverting all creek water flow further down to the secondary creek running out of his property across ours. This secondary creek, as of now, pretty much acts as a fill overflow, too much rain for our buried inlet to handle, overflows into a raised ditch which then flows into this creek. The only thing that worries me is that the buried inlet, and ditch dividing the swamp from our lake "SEEMS" to be on his property, without an actual survey, which I'm trying to acquire a copy of, I do not know for sure. BTW, this secondary creek is NOT pictured in the photo I posted.

He also stated he wished to drain the swampy area, let me be honest, its more nasty swamp than waterfowl loving wetland, in order to backfill it. He didn't want to have his driveway raised, he wanted to turn the swampy area into a lawn or some such.

When questioned on the flow going into our pond his response was along the lines of, if we were willing to pay to have an oversized pipe buried into both his yard and ours along with some type of low area drain system to prevent his property from future flooding, then he would allow that. Not that I can even see the logic in any of that, why the *F-Bomb* should we pay for his land mis-development?

This was of several months ago, and my father-in-law who currently owns our property said we should wait on the neighbors survey, which we could acquire copies of afterwards, before taking any further action. We were told previously by the neighbor that he would have surveyors out at any time and we would be notified of this.

Nothing has seemingly went on between now and then. No surveyors, no ribbons. But this afternoon, I look out and the old cod is putting out surveying ribbons along an old fence line. I wonder what the hell is going on and who I should advise my Father-in-Law to possibly start contacting, hence my posting here.

Also I believe our true first step here would be to contact the neighbors again, as per advice on this board, and try to find out exactly what they have in mind at this point and if anything has changed from the previous stated plans. If nothing has changed and the attitude now is what was presented before I want to have the knowledge of who to contact to get some feets put up his ass and have a stop put to this.

Also I would rather do things where the neighbor won't get wind of it to prevent anything from escalating. Sorta getting our ducks in a row here in case the fit hits the shan, and I come home and 1/2 his property is bulldozed and our pond looks like orange sherbert with no more water flowing in. I would like to know who to call, or have on call, to get things stopped and restored.

While we wait for the experts to chime in...I would study up on becoming a pig farmer, a really big one.

What is maxing out the pond?

I only ask because there is no-where for the pond to really go unless I dig out the backside dam seperating his property from ours and flood him out.

swamp=wetlands
You have to start before the bulldozers

Hey Eastland, I think the Prez only returns Lusks calls.

Thanks everyone for the replies this evening. As you can see I am trying to get everything together, with my property and steps I should start to take to ensure the future protection of our small pond.

Everyone here has been nice and helpful and I only wish my first posts here could have been on a lighter note.

I will try to keep everything updated in this post. And again thanks.

BTW, to answer the secondary question, I think it all depends on WHAT you call the president.

One other thing from my experience in the environmental field. No matter what he does on his own land, he must have a storm water plan that will prevent undue silt from entering your property. In other words, as him what detailed plans he has in place to keep any silt from filling in your pond. That portion of construction can be the single most expensive part. Make sure he knows that ANY impact he has on your property will be remedied.