Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations winter water temp

Hey guys outstanding site.Been a subscriber almost a year,just completed 5 acre pond SE of Nashville,TN. Please dont laugh at the question,but is there anything you could do ie.device,mechanism,high volume well,etc.To keep the water temp in the winter months at around 40degrees to allow the threadfin shad to winter thru.Go ahead and laugh but it seems like you guys are having a good time! Steam plant is out of the question

What kind of winters do you have, Billy?

What's the mean air temp for Jan./Feb.?

For some reason I don't associate Nashville with harsh winters.

Actually, I just went ahead and looked it up.

Your mean daily temperature in January is 36.9 degrees F. Also you mean annual temperature is 61.0 degrees F.

What this means is that your well water should come out of the ground at 61 degrees. Now if your average January atmospheric temps are around 37 I would assume that you get minimal ice coverage. This following comment may expose my ignorance, but I think it would be possible to create a thermal budget that could estimate what your pumping volume of 61 degree water would have to be to maintain an area of the pond at or above 40 degrees. I'll bet that it would be impossible to heat the entire pond, but maybe possible to create a warmer area of the pond that some of the shad could use as a refuge.

As a matter of fact, Nebraska has some power plant reservoirs that discharge warm water, 70+ F., that are used by some species of fish that get stressed by cold water. The gizzard shad will collect by the thousands near the discharge and some big predatory fish make a feast of stunned and disoriented baitfish.

I'm intrigued by the question, and I know to never say that something is impossible. There may even be some species of shad that would do better than others. I think that in some situations, it would be ideal for predators to have access to prey that spend a few weeks on the brink of freezing during the winter.

Thanks for the reply Bruce.Harsh,I guess not.But we do get down to the single digits a few times during the year and my previous one acre pond would ice over.Correct me if im wrong but i was told shad usually would not make it if the water temp fell below 40 degrees.That is of course in farm ponds.

I think that Cody or CB1 need to let us know if there is a good forage shad that has a chance to winter over since they are from "up north".

As you can see, I snuck in my second post before your reply.

Bruce sorry for the slow reply,just getting started with all this pond stuff.Your articles are great. Just thought with all the different things going on with pond mangement you never know.

Gizzard shad do just fine in the reservoirs here. With my ltd experience, I've never heard of any other shad species besides Gizzard & Threadfin.

billy, with a 5 acre pond you could consider using Gizzard Shad - AFTER your Bass get big enough to handle the adult GShad.

Record your temps real good this Winter in the new pond - see how far below 40 deg you get. Maybe adding warmer well water to the warmer depths of the pond in Winter could make overwintering TShad possible.

Theo i agree threadfin and gizzard are the only shad i know of and they both thrive in Tenn.However what ive been told is threadfin shad in farm ponds usually dont do well once the water temp hits 40 degrees.My main objective with the threadfins is for my HSB since they are a smaller forage fish and my HSB only average 14 inches.Gizzard shad would probably be to big

Billy,

I'd think you should consider gizzards next growing season. They are actually a preferred food for HSB. I've had the gizzards in a HSB pond for a year now and have seen no problems with large gizzards....although that could still develop as a problem, I suppose. The research I've done shows that HSB love gizzards....possibly because they are also an open water fish just like the HSB. I see regular explosions of HSB on gizzards.

ML,thanks for the reply.How big were your HSB when you introtused your gizzard shad or were they already established.And do they winter thru better than threadthin.Plus what was the average size when you stocked them.

Billy,

My HSB were two + pounds when the gizzards were stocked. Now, some are about 4 pounds. I also have Florida LMB in the same pond, some of which are considerably larger than the HSB. The gizzards are much more temp tolerant than threadfin shad. I've tried to establish threadfin twice and could not get them to take hold.

From reading posts on this Forum from guys that have had some success with threadfin, I believe my problems were size related, i.e the threadfins I was sold were too small to reproduce before being consumed.

The gizzards I stocked were 3 to 4 inches. They seem to be doing just fine. About a year ago there was an excellent article on gizzard shad in the Pond Boss mag. Also some good discussions on this Forum about them...but interestingly very few people have tried them in ponds for fear of the take-over by large gizzards in the pond. I have simply seen no indication at all of that happening; my gizzards do not live long enough to get large before being consumed.

ML,thanks for the reply.Just got thru reading your exchange with Bill Cody on Gizzard shad back in Nov.2004(good stuff).Now do you think it would be possible to sustain a pond that has only Gizzard shad for forage and HSB as the predator? Lets say you stock the pond with HSB,artificial feed for two years hoping for a size of around 16inches,good fertilization,intoduce gizzard shad,then slowly come off the artificial feed. Is that to unconventional.

Billy,

Yes, that discussion with Bill C. on gizzards really brought out the pros and cons of stocking them.

I don't think I would depend on only one type of forage, e.g. gizzards. If you also have BG and in my case Tilapia, I think you improve the odds of success considerably.

I just don't know how far the natural forage can go to offset reduced pellet feeding on HSB in ponds. It seems, intuitivly, that it could reduce that need or even eliminate it, if you can super charge the forage. You don't see many artificial feeders on lakes with great populations of HSB and SB, but you do generally see very good populations of gizzard shad.

I believe forage can significantly reduce (or eliminate) the need for pellet feeding in ponds with LMB but just don't know about HSB. HSB may require more forage than a small pond can typically produce.

Billy,
Nice to have some more middle Tennessee guys on here. I'm near Lewisburg, about an hour south of Nashville.

I've heard either Bob Lusk or Greg Grimes say that threadfins will make it 3 out of 5 winters in our zone. It might really depend on the pond. I have a 3/4 acre heavily spring fed(in the winter) pond. Water temps never got below 39 surface temp last year. However, several ponds near mine froze over for a time. I assume mine stays warmer due to the 55 degree heavy inflow.

ML,Iknow you have several ponds,however referring to your last post is one stocked with just tilapia and gizzard shad for forage or does it also have BG.And not to get side tracked but in regards to your LM that are hook shy (which i believe)have you ever tryed hand feeding them with 3 or 4 containers of night crawlers at the feeders everyday for about a month(just one worm at a time). Came across the same situation(frustrating)and the LM started to ignore the BG (not all together)to engulf the offerings we were giving them.Hence ,when the feeder went off we could throw plastic worms in to catch them.

Billy,

What an outstanding, creative idea...i.e. feed the LMB worms during BG pellet feeding. Has a couple of problems, but a terrific concept, nonetheless.

One problem that I see is that I'm not around during most of the times the feeders go off, but it still might be worth a try when I am there. The other problem that comes to mind is that it seems like you would have to continue that process indefinitely, or as long as you are feeding, otherwise, the LMB will revert back to their old habits. I'm more inclined to get rid of feeding altogether in favor of natural forage, except for the HSB.

At any rate, its a very interesting idea, which further supports the hypothesis of LMB conditioning. If nothing else, it is refreshing, just once, to read that someone agrees with me...it's so rare on this Forum...

In the pond with HSB, my forage consists of gizzard shad, possibly remnants of threadfin shad, CNBG, Tilapia, Gambusia, grass shrimp, and a few scattered fatheads. From stomach contents, I have verified that HSB prey on all of them...but I feel if given a choice they would prefer gizzards first, followed very closely by fall chilled Tilapia that are somewhat lethargic. They absolutely feast on the Tilapia in the fall.

Billy, I hope you will stick around here because we can sure use those innovative ideas. :p

ML,its funny i just walked back in from being up at the pond when i got your reply.I have 4LM that show up when i had feed my HSB and BG.Its like clockwork which im sure for you to.I walk out on a temporary earthen jetty to feed in almost gin clear water(I know not a good thing,deal with it later)and their practically at my feet.I have never tried to catch them except for tonight with a six watermelon zoom worm with no luck(yes i to am confident in my abilities).However, fish in gin clear water at your feet are difficult.So i ran up to the store and yea you guessed it bought 3 containers of night crawlers.Half way thru the second container caught all 4.I know very unscientif.And i truly believe it was only a reaction strike.Oh yea i plan on sticking around its a disease.

I suggest tracking your pond temperatures this winter. You aren't planning to buy shad now, anyway, and you can collect valuable data for the next year, starting now. Measure temperatures at different depths, top to bottom, in two foot increments. Write them down, log individual readings into an excel spreadsheet, and look for patterns at all depths. It won't take many months to make your decisions easier.

Bob,Thanks for the reply.I understand what your saying and your right iam not putting shad in at this time,however if my pond ices over,is that my answer right there.Just curious have you ever heard of anyone trying to keep there pond a little warmer in the winter to carry over there shad? Cool elevator ride,who was taller?

Yes, I have. It's still a crapshoot, even without the elevator ride. For people in areas where there are two or three winter cool snaps which drive temperatures downward, you can put a greenhouse structure over a part of the pond. I saw one in south Texas once, where a frame was built across the corner of the pond, clear plastic draped over it. The catch was that it was over the northern end, where sun shined directly on it, and it was on the upwind side. The theory was that there would be less mixing of water, and the warmer water would stay segregated, since it is less dense. The unknown was whether or not the fish would find it, then stay there. Keep in mind, the water there was only too cool in the natural environment for five or six days, total, all winter. That seemed to work for this particular landowner.
Now, here's another perspective.
How much do threadfin shad cost?
Replace them each spring, if yours die off. It's not that costly for the advantage you get. I guarantee this...a batch of threadfin shad in April will cost less than the energy cost of trying to warm your water.

Thanks Bob what a great point!