Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Fl LMB

Meadowlark posted the following in a previous thread:

"The single worst mistake I have made, even worse than stocking pure Florida strain LMB. Three years later and I still have not recovered."

Considering that I just stocked 50 Fl strain LMB in my one acre pond in North Fl, I would sure like Meadowlark to explain the above.

Tom :

I will let ML answer for himself on your question. I do know what he has said in the past and you can find it with a search of forum topics using "catchability" as the key word. There are several studies as well as many years of pond owner reports that show that fla. strain LMB are more difficult to catch if fishing with art. baits. The problems seem to be much less when using live bait. See the link below. ewest

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000262

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001960

Tom, your question leads to genetic traits. By judging the knowledge of this board, pure Florida bass are somewhat shy. Almost everyone wants the aggressive characteristics of the native northern bass. The goal is to achieve the weight of a pure FL species, with the bite of a northern. That's where (in my opinion) the ultimate LMB arrives...the F1. They go by many names...the first generation cross between the two. I (personally) believe that many generations down from the F1 reproduce trophy bass. (although, I consider a 6-8 lb a trophy)

The resistance you see stocking pure Florida bass is that others have stocked them and they have sub-par catch rates. I would recommend a few bass of the northern variety to create your own F1 mix.

Here is a nice F1, F2, or F3 that came from our 2 acre, 50 yr. old pond.

tom,
I would recommend reading lots of experiences on this forum before forming your own opinion on what works & what doesn't. As Bill Cody repeatedly states "it all depends" on the environment you provide your fish. Eastland shows proof that F1's do bite!
For example here's a post (I believe he's referring to F1's) referring to aggressive bass:

Here's the link to the thread:
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000144;p

The opinions & experiences here are diverse. Learn from them all.

Ric and Tom :

In the post you copied of Greg's he is refering to F1 bass that that were bred from selected Fla. strain fish selected for size and quality with northern strain fish bred and selected for aggressiveness . They are feed trained at 2 in. and grown out in ponds. They are not Fla.s they are 1/2 Fla. The hatchery that developed this did so to move away from selling pure Fla.s 10 years ago when research first showed a catchability concern and when at the same time pond owners that they sold to complained to them about the problem. I talked to one of the biologists who owns this hatchery to buy some 10in Fla.s in 1998 to mix with northerns in my ponds. He was reluctent to sell me Fla.s for the reasons stated above and would not agree to until I explained that I was doing the same as they were creating F1s.

I agree with Ric's approach. Do all the research you can and even call Greg and the hatchery read the scientific reports from the AFS. Some of the info is on line. Talk to people in your area about their results and based on your goals pick what is best for you. You can even change the mix by adding the other strain later if that fits your situation. I do know people who have Fla.s that are very happy with them but some are not and most people are now selling F1s or are suggesting mixing the strains. If you are in north Fla. then you are in the natural intergrade zone of mixing Fla. and northern genes. ewest

Tom, obviously ML is out of pocket, or he would have addressed your question.
The topic that is being addressed is “catchability” of LMB, and the perceived differences in pure Florida LMB, F1’s, and native (northern species).

In my opinion, for what it’s worth, the "The single worst mistake I have made” is FISHING PRESSURE in a small pond – not necessarily the type of LMB.

If you fish your one acre pond twice a year, the Florida strain LMB will be “catchable” on lures/flies – if you fish your pond twice a week – your fish will become lure shy and become “uncatchable”. They will lurk around your feeder, waiting for an easy BG meal.

George Glazener

N.E. Texas ¼ acre and 2 acre ponds with Florida, F1’s, and native LMB, BG, HSB and CC (2nd biggest mistake)

Tom,

As George stated, I've been on higher priority items (here in Houston we have taken in something on the order of 100,000 people from Katrina).

Your question addressed pure strain Florida LMB. My response will do the same. Some of the above responses address F1 LMB, a cross between Florida and native LMB.

Why was Florida strain LMB a mistake for me? It gets down to objectives. I have several objectives for my ponds, including no chemical use, self-sustaining, and low maintenance. As related to fishing, my objectives are very straight forward. I want a high catch rate of a quality predator available to a skilled fly/lure fisherperson. By high catch rate, I mean 10 to 15 predators in a 2 hour session. By quality, I mean a 50% chance of one of those predators being over 5 pounds. Those are my objectives and I have achieved them in three ponds with native LMB. I also must add, that in each of those three ponds, fishing pressure was light.

Now, to the pond with the pure strain Florida LMB. This pond, which is now close to 4 acres, was originally stocked over 4 years ago with pure strain Florida LMB. Unlike my other ponds, it also has heavy artificial feeding of high protein feed. Also, unlike my other ponds, it receives more fishing pressure. Initially, the Florida LMB were very catchable. After 1 year, there was a very marked drop off in catch rates. After 2 years, more drop off and after 3 years, the LMB were virtually uncatchable. A 2 hour session would yield one bass, typically very small. The Floridas are very clearly present. They are very clearly growing substantially. Some to "trophy" size. I observe them several times a week at the feeders attacking BG that are feeding on the pellets. This behavior is beyond question. I have consistently observed it for 4 years, without exception.

My conclusion, which I have stated several times on this Forum, (and has been misquoted) is that Florida strain LMB in small ponds with artificial feeding with fishing pressure, and with catch and release, is problematic. It will not meet my objectives. It is a conclusion based on direct observation for 4 years of Florida LMB.

Will F1 LMB meet my objectives? Will using Tilapia in place of artificial feeding in conjunction with F1 LMB meet my objectives? I have an experiment on-going to answer those questions in special 2 acre pond. The experiment is now approaching one year in duration. The results are very encouraging. I have not fished that pond but do observe it several times a week. The LMB behavior is the most aggressive I have ever observed in my 150 pond years of experience(a pond year is one year of observing one pond at least 50 times over that year). The growth of the F1's appears to be not only good, but great. It will take another year, at least, with fishing pressure, to make any conclusions on this experiment. Fishing pressure will not start until next spring...assuming I can continue to exercise restraint.

Tom, as a person who talks straight and talks only about that which I have personally experienced, I can say to you that if you fish your 1 acre pond regularly, i.e. at least monthly, if you fish with artificials, if you artificially feed , and if you practice catch and release, you will experience marked decreases in catch rate within a year. Within a couple of years you will find large bass very difficult to catch.

Now, back to objectives. If your objectives are to raise trophy bass, the Floridas are demonstrated to have the best growth rates. If you prefer to fish with live bait, the Floridas will probably be ok. If you never fish the pond, except for maybe once or twice a year, the Floridas may be okay. If you want to fish more often, with artificials, and you want to have a high catch rate, you will fail with Floridas in a small pond.

If I have not answered your question, then please ask more questions. I will be happy to answer them. I am not, however, interested in hearing the same tired arguments from the same folks, that I am a bad fisherman, a bad pond manager, and an inexperienced pond manager. There are much more important things going on right now. Thanks for reading my response and for your interest.

Thanks to Meadowlark for the very detailed response to my original question and thanks to the others who also replied, and in a similar vein, i.e., catchability of Fl strain vs the F1's. I appreciate and admire everyone's knowledge of this apparent given fact, however, I must admit that my original question was directed towards a comment that Meadowlark made about the Fl. strain without clarification in that particular posting. Being as how I had just thrown in 50 2" Fl strain bass because my supplier could not get F1's, and he told me the difference about the F1's aggressiveness, etc., I still elected to get what he had, the Fl. strain.

I did that because my primary reason for getting the bass was to thin out my exploding population of bream. After stocking 500 last fall, and thinking that I had no more than 20 survivors this spring, I am now seeing babies everywhere, and enough different sizes to know that I had a number of spawnings this spring and summer from fish that I didn't even realize were there.

So, I apologize if I have created a big hullabaloo about lmb strains, but all I wanted was a clarification of Meadowlark's comment about what a huge mistake he made in stocking the Florida strain, after I had just done so.

Anyway, this is a great site for pond owners, and I certainly appreciate the time many people take to share in their experiences and knowledge.

Regards, Tom Parker

Tom,

Now that you stated your objective, i.e. thin out a huge BG population, the Floridas should work just fine. The pond I mentioned with the Floridas also has the largest BG's I have ever seen in person...a benefit that is not minimized by me.

Meadowlark, About 14 years ago, on the advice of my fish supplier, I stocked my 2.5 acre pond with the pure fl bass. I was under the impression that that bass would be more aggressive and therefore attack my lures, live bait accordingly.
That has not been the case. I have seen some large fish--one got in a trap-but they are hard to catch. Since I suspect the otters got some of my fish I plan to stock more fish this fall and next spring. So my grand son can enjoy catching fish with a few bigger ones in the mix, what would you suggest I stock the pond with? My objectives are for for more action I guess. Also I don't fertilize much if any anymore and I've decided to fish around the lillies.
By the way, having lived in Houston over 30 years before I retired, I'm not surprised at the way folks over there are handling the situation.

Jim, I’m going to jump in on this thread, knowing that ML will have more to say, since we are essentially pursuing the same plan for a diverse and productive fishery.

My answer to your question is to stock Hybrid Striped Bass.

Since you have adult Florida LMB, 8-10 inch stockers will be required to avoid LMB predation. Check with Todd Overton of Overton Fisheries for more information if you are interested.
http://www.overtonfisheries.com/DesktopDefault.aspx

HSB are fun, easy to catch and manage, as well as excellent table fare.
A three pounder on a 5wt flyrod is a blast.

There have been many HSB posts on the PB forum that are available to review.
A good one to start with:
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000199

Hope this helps,
George Glazener
N.E. Texas ¼ acre and 2acre ponds

Thanks George. I'll add something.

We have a pond designated to pure florida bass broodstock. We had the fish DNA tested this year...pure florida results. For a lot of large lakes in east Texas, pure florida bass are stocked every year to keep the gene pool fresh. I have had the chance to fish some of these lakes, and my opinion of florida lmb fishability goes right along with the others who have posted. In addition, I have done some fishing in our brood pond and rarely catch a florida bass with artificials. On the other hand, I can catch an F1 bass out here on the farm about every other cast.

Unless you are dead set on lmb in your pond, you should read what you can about stocking hsb on this forum. It is difficult to retract a stocking decision, so if anything....stock a few feedtrained f1 lmbs after hsbs have been established. 100 hsb per acre then 50 lmb per acre is sustainable. Maintain a feeding program with at least 40% protein fish food. You'll find that the overall hsb experience is more rewarding than the lmb experience.

Thanks for the help. For the record, Overton Fisheries was not my supplier 14 years ago. Will look forward to talking with them this time.

Jim,

You've already got answers from the two best...George and Todd...and not surprisingly, I agree with both of them.

Like George, I've been moving to a HSB based fishery in my largest pond. They work really well with Florida bass already present. The Florida bass help produce large BG and provide entertainment at the feeders and other than that, are of no value.

I purchased F1's from Todd for an experimental pond...just can't give up completely on LMB yet, but may... and he is absolutely correct in his description of their aggressive behavior. I have described in other posts their behavior of chasing small fish to the dirt, to the bank. It is amazing to watch, something I have never seen a warm water fish do in a pond.

However, the F1 is good only for one generation...what happens after a couple of years and spawns, what characteristics will the offspring have? Time will tell.

In the meantime, HSB is a great choice to meet your objectives. You won't be sorry you stocked them..especially if you use that 5 wt that George talked about...what a fish, that HSB.

One last comment, I would not add F1's to your mix like Todd suggests. For one thing, they likely will be eaten by larger fish, and for another, you can only support so many predators per acre. I would not add F1's to that mix, but go with the HSB. Maybe Todd will counter. I added a few last spring with fins clipped and haven't seen a one of them in the Florida pond. I believe they were casualties. Let us know what you decide and how it turns out, Jim.

Thanks to you all. I really appreciate your help and the time you take to give your responses.

ML :

I think you have raised another good question when you said : "However, the F1 is good only for one generation...what happens after a couple of years and spawns, what characteristics will the offspring have? Time will tell."

I have seen info that indicates good results and other that reports mixed results with some concern. My memory of the reports were that as you would expect that over time the mixed genetics from the parent brood fish show a varity of genetic drift in the resulting generations of offspring.

This is why I think it is very important to get F1s from a source like Overton who have hand selected their brood fish for good traits and can tell you about their brood fish and most importantly you can trust what they say.

If you do all of that and over time incounter bad genetic drift then you know you have done all you could. Then you can take some out and put in some quality northerns and a few Fla. and create your own combo of F1 , Fla and northerns and mixes.ewest

EWEST,

On mixing natives with Floridas, have you seen any experiments/studies that show the proper ratios to use? For example, in my pure Florida pond, of about 4 acres how many northerns would have to be introduced to get an abundance of F1's offspring...likewise in a pure native pond, the number of Floridas to introduce?

I wonder what folks do long term that use the changing genetics approach to get more aggressive LMB. What do you do in years 3 and 4 and so on? So much to learn, so little time.

ML :

I have seen some info. Let me try to find it and report back tomorrow. I try to error on the side of more northerns if starting from day one but that is not what you ask about. One way is to start taking out fla. and replacing with 10 in northerns. It will take a while but any step would be a start. You might be able to trade large fla. with Overton for 10in northerns. I bet he could make up a plan to shock some out and replace with = weight of northerns and turn and sell the large Fla to some one in a hurry. If you took out 100 lbs of fla. {say 30 fish} and replaced with 100 lbs of 10 in northerns {say 100 fish} you can change a lot in a hurry just based on the numbers. Will report back tomorrow. ewest

Plan to stock 500 pure flordia fingerlings in a 5 acre pond this fall. The purpose of this is to diversify the genetics. This pond has not had any outside genetics for many years. The existing bass population is probably hybrid but exibit mainly northern characteristics. The largest caught is 5.5 pounds, with a good mix of small, medium and large. I have been removing all bass greater than 12" but less than 15" for three years. I expect about 10 to 20% of the fingerlings to survive. I also plan to add 30 F1's 6 to 8" size. I use protein feeders, stock tilapia and add cnbg from brood pond. No fertalizer. Will report back as to results.

ML and Tentmaker :

Still looking for the requested stocking info.
I do want to refer you to one of the articles handed out at DFW meeting entitled " Behavioral Modification of Angling Vulnerability in Largemouth Bass through Selective Breeding " by Gary P. Garrett. One of their studies was on a small resv. addressing some stats. He was associated with the Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept. on the paper and study. If you could make contact with him he may know more about this than any one as he has written several papers on related subjects. I would be interested in knowing what he says. Will look for more info and report back. May try to contact him myself.

Tentmaker I have a similar project ongoing started in 1998. Started with all northerns of all ages and sizes and BG/RE in 20 year old 16 acre pond. Added 100 10-12in. fla., next 2 years added more CNBG/RE to help forage then added 1000 2in fla all the while taking out LMB to keep balance. Probably got 10% survival of 2in. fla. This year added 1000 3-5 in. CNBG {behind blocking net grew out and spawned before release} to add forage and in fall will add 300 fin clipped 8in. F1s (Tiger Bass)selected for aggressiveness and some more (? 1500) CNBG/RE 2in. Have been taking out LMB to make room for TB. From fall through july no bass in 8-12in. class will be taken out to allow for Tiger Bass to spawn. Will try to not take out any fin clipped fish so as to keep aggressive genetics in pond for spawning. We will see how it works. ewest

What a passionate thread, this one! Lots of well thought out opinions.
Here's my two cents.
Keep several principles in mind, all the time. Different species of fish, different strains of the same species...have different lifestyles. Mix those species and expect behaviors and dominance inside the fish community. Some fish eat others, some reproduce, some live shallow, some live in cover.
The more you know, the better decisions you will make.
I absolutely concur pure strain Florida bass are tougher to catch than their native cousins. The biologist in me also knows those babies don't reach double digits because they don't eat. If they eat, they bite.
Here's a principle that's missing from this thread. The dynamics of your fish population are unique to that population. If you completely understand each species of fish, along with each size class within those species, you come a bit closer to understanding the dynamics of your population.
The most important point made throughout this thread is individual objectives. Meadowlark is less concerned with trophy size fish as he is with active catch rates. That decision has a direct influence on species, stocking rates, and management philosophies.
Conversely, those who seek truly huge bass are on a quest, sometimes an obsessive one, to say the least. If you guys haven't read the book, "Sowbelly, the Quest for the World Record Bass", take a look at that obsession.
I look at all these different fish as "tools" in your pond management tool kit. Want huge bass? Gotta have Florida genetics. Want to control macrophytic plants? Take a look at grass carp. Interested in an eating machine which grows quickly, takes pelleted feed, and fills a niche beyond the traditional stockings? Hybrid striped bass.
Each species of fish common to pond management serves a purpose. If the fish fits the habitat and the purpose, use it.
If not, don't.

EWEST,

I'll try to contact him and request him to post on the Forum on this thread if possible. Thanks.

ML, Garrett is a nice guy spoke with him back in 1996 when replicaitng similiar research on sex reversal of largemouth bass. Good luck.

ML :

I have a current ph. # for Garry Garrett and called and left a message of our inquiry and name and will call him back on Monday. Will try to get him to post (would be great to get him on the forum) or will post what he tells me. I know I have seen at least one article with suggestions other than the one set out in post above but am having trouble finding it again. ewest

great topic, don't have much to add...but learnin' from the topic...keep this topic going!

Bob, thanks for the suggestion of the book.

great comments folks. thanks. very helpful

mark