Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations leaking pond 4 yrs old

ok i have a 5,000 to 6,000 sq foot pond. it is 16 foot deep at the deepest point - rest is maybe 6 ft. the pond has leaked since installed. we ran into sand moisture and gravel at 16 foot. no apparent leaks where i had to build up the area around the pond to hold water ( i guess you call that the dam).

sand was down to 5 foot when we hit some clay and sand. i have put in 5,000 lbs of bentinite prior to the last application. the last application was 5,000 lbs for a total of 10,000 lbs.

the pond leaks currently at 1" a day when full and a little more when it goes down further because of the sides comming in.

adding bentinite did not seem to make a differece. also , when my contractor built it it would not hold so we trucked in 30 truckloads of clay and spread all over. the bentinite was added later when it still leaked.

right now i am looking at 5 possibilites

1 let pond leak to where it does not (it has some fish) drain a 1/2 or 1 foot more out then add bentinite at 1" thick. is the bentinite calc right 1" thick for area.

2 drill a well with a float valve and dig a well to flow into it. then say hell with it!!

3 see about putting a liner in (oh cost of this?)

4 haul dirt and give up. ie. fill it in. in which case i'll have a kosko areator for sale cheap.

5 look at ess 13. ( cost etc) and does this work for this problem?

i calculate the pond to be about 30,000 acrea ft cause of the depth.

your help would be appreciated.

thanks

bob fulton

oops!! by the way contractor said throwing (shoveling bentinite around pod into water would silt the pond. sorry for the forget but i have had some wine tonight and am enjoying my retirement despite the leaky pond..

ps i have hybryd pearch in pond and put cutrine plus in to control algae (filamentous) around sides. we caught a fish and it looked like it had cutrine dumped on it - is this right?

thanks again.

My opions:

1. Might work if you can find the leak.

2. Might work but would take a bunch of well.

3. approx. 50 cents per sq. ft.

4. This is like filling a swimming pool. Expensive to build and expensive to fill.

5. Really, really expensive; I have been told.

Tossing bentonite won't silt the pond. It is a mineral that is mined and then crushed or pelletized.

I think I would try to find the leak and take option # 1. Of course, if he didn't core it, it may be leaking all the way along where it was tied in.

In my area I have evaporation of at least 1 inch per day during the summer weather. In the winter the level will stay very constant. South Mississippi area.

Bob,

I was told, by the folks who mine it and install it in Texas, that to have any chance at success with Bentonite in an existing pond you need a minimum of 8 inches coverage over the area that leaks and around the periphery of that area. One inch won't do much of anything.

If it were me, and if I understand your situation correctly, I would drain it, and fix it right with clay.

Bentonite works best if you can spread it and then cover it w/ soil before it has a chance to rehydrate/swell. The compression of the soil cover keeps it tighter when it swells. Same with bentonite-cored liners.

My idea would be to bore some holes below the dam (across the ravine if I'm reading correctly between the lines) to see where the water level rises to. You need to let the holes sit for a day or so to let the water level rise to equilibrium. If you have one or two holes with water higher than the others (may require a level to shoot the water's surface) you might be adjacent to the leak. Just because you don't see the seepage doesn't mean it isn't happening below the surface.

Another thing to try would be to pump down the pond and look for areas that dry up more rapidly than others.

Finding the leak can be tough. I've been involved in trouble shooting some leaking sewage lagoons that were lined with Bentomat liners w/o sucess. Sometimes you do get lucky though. The only constant to keep in mind is that water flows from high head to low head and troubleshoot accordingly.

Dave what does core it mean? i not a constuctor you know just dumb owner.

thanks for the posts. i will wait a couple of days and try one of these suggestions.

ok i have investigated the following 2 choices

1 dig a well cost $4200 (probably about $300 with a 1 1/2 hp pump) plus float valve.

2 a local from here near houston quoted an estimate of $1.00 per sq ft for a liner - seems high he ways my first call.

in addition i have looked at every post on this
web site concerning leaks and have come up with this list of causes.

1 dam not cored - would a good amount of bentinite solve this and where would one put it?

2 leaks at dam where original ground was and new dam dirt starts - again would bentinite solve it if it was applied where the dam is?

3 leaks 2 foot below the full water line (dont know if that one was just around dam or whole pond
- same question would bentinite solve this.

4 leaks around tree roots which i have 4 or 5 larger trees around pond but trees everywhere 180 degrees around back of pond. not sure what to do?

the pond is dropping 1 inch a day

i can buy bentinite for $6 dollars per 100 lb bag locally.

the pond is built in the side of a slite slop maybe dam part is 4 or 5 foot high. the circumference of pond is about 260 feet, figured as follows about 80+ in diameter times pie 3.1414.
the dam portion is about a hundred feet long.

takig into consideration the above how much bentinite is required? still trying to figure best way to approach.

thanks fellas

Bob,

Extremely high quality Firestone Pond Guard 45ml liner can be found on the internet for around .40/sq. ft. If you've got a couple of friends you should be able to lay it yourself in a pond that size. If you have questions regarding seaming or edging I can get that to you.

Using a liner may create some interesting water chemistry concerns but with research you can probably overcome these problems.

This may not be your best option, but I'd hold off on spending the $1 per foot if you're going that route.

oops! forgot to mention i have no way to bring in a dozer - the home and pond is built on 5 ac and in the center. the home and pond is surrounded 360 degrees by trees and brush, you cannot see this place from anywhere. and of course i already have sodded around the pond plus landscaping. this is why i am more leaning to liner or well. i will do bentinite first if you think its more feasable with desired result.

of course i could try the bentinite first then if no worky do liner or well.

bob,

If you really need a dozer, he will "make his own path" - if you know what I mean.

I read lots of posts from folks who try bentonite. I read very few who say it actually worked. Just an observation, I have no experience with it.



Gator

Bob; I also hit sand when my pond was dug, its about the same size as yours. It also looses about one inch a day.The well I put in cost me about 3000 with the extra elect I had to run, it pumps about 15gpm it doesent sound like much, but I start it when the pond gets about 6 inches low takes two days to fill back up.so I run the well two days a week, no problem I;m glad I did it...jimmy

Bob,

You've got a tough situation. It really sounds to me that bentonite, in your case, is a very high risk of not fixing your problem. Those tree roots and associated 4 leaks have got to be repaired; bentonite will not do that in my opinion. For bentonite to have any chance, you will have to drain, apply, and mix in the soil. That is not a weekend warrior job and you will need some heavy equipment.

The liner sounds like your best option, maybe only option if you are positive you can not get a dozer in and haul in clay to fix the problem.

If it were me, I would look real hard at bringing in the dozer....as Gator said, the dozer will make its own path and can also make a path for dump trucks to haul in good clay to fix it right.

In any case you are looking at significant costs. Your cost potential tells me that you should bring in an expert...an engineer with a good reputation that can develop those trades for you to consider.

I've never dealt with liners and just can't offer advice in that regard and my experience is with clay embankment ponds. Hence, I am admittedly biased toward the clay approach. It will cause some disruption to your property, but that can be minimized and in a few months will be back to normal.

My best advice is to get a professional engineer in to give the options and the costs associated with them....but I would be very skeptical of bentonite in your situation.

Keep us posted, please.

Bob,

One more thing...if you think I could help in any way send me a PM. I'm in Houston part of the time. I'm an engineer, but not the kind you need. I do have a good bit of experience with clay ponds on my East Texas ranch.

In the vein of you get what you pay for, you may very well get nothing from me, but it won't cost you anything either.

ok meadowlark nitrosyncretic thinking - hmmm!

i had to look this up in the dictonary - the old one didnt have the meaning - so i looked it up in th new one - what a word and what a thought process you must have wow !!!!

Bob; Some more thoughs.I forgot to mention some of the other benefits of having a well.With a well you have the added ability to drawn down your pond to do the many things that can only be done then. last fall I repaired my dock,I drew the pond down 5ft for that was able to refill it in 5 weeks. also I draw down every winter and refill when I want .We use our well for our extensive garding,also where the well water enters the pond we created a 5ft water fall( oxygen) very nice.As you can see I like my well even if my pond didn't leak I would have a well just for the above reasons

bob, 1 inch per day doesnt sound that bad. Does it lose 1 inch in winter as well as summer. If you have a fountain type aerator, that will cause much evaporation. I'm fighting something similar in S. Miss. with heat and raining all around but not in my watershed. Clearing trees first, then may go with draining or bentonite. I was told that 'plug' type bentonite is much better than ground up in existing water, as it will not disperse as much, and will find the point of the leaks better. This by people who deal in wells and such.

Robinson's newspaper idea is a new and interesting approach. My gosh, the Chronicle has enough wasted timber in it that it is worth a shot. Maybe you have a starting point and several good options to try. Keep us informed of the results.

PI, they used a variation of the technique you mention, with loose straw, on the dam at Buckeye Lake just South of me several years ago. It is an old Erie Canal feeder lake located on what was once called the "Great Buffalo Swamp." It has been built up around it with a lot of homes, many of which are below the dam.

When the dam was leaking and they were afraid they were going to lose it, they spread a lot of loose straw in the water next to the dam. The straw was pulled into the cracks, locating them and slowing the leakage considerably in the short term until the dam could be repaired (I believe the delay was mainly until finding could be obtained).

I think someone should start a list of pond leak stoppers.

In addition to clay, bentonite, and ESS, just in the last few weeks we have been made aware of somewhat more innovative stoppers including: ag. lime, pigs, cows, newspaper, and now straw. Did I miss any?

the pond looses 1 inch a day but may slow in winter a little (but we get rain in winter usually). last year i let it go down a lot and spread bentonite around perimiter but probably did not use enough.

i fill the pond from my house well - but its hard to shower flush the chonicle down or make ice cubes for scotch. the well runs 24 hours every 4 days to keep it full currently.

ok i was told to try this.

put a 5 gallon bucket in the pond water close to the edge. fill the bucket with water to the water level of the pond.

check each day the water level of the bucket as compared to the pond. the difference in water level between the bucket and pond is the leak amount by the pond assuming that both the pond and bucket evaporate at the same rate which i believe they should.

will begin this experiment tomarrow and post results soon.

Bob,

That is a great idea. You remove many of the variables that way (humidity, wind, suspended solids, etc. I'd also recommend a light colored bucket that won't heat up and make the bucket as full as possible so as not to block the effects of wind. Of course the difference between the bucket and the pond will be any inputs from springs etc. minus leakage.