Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations HSB vs. LMB in small ponds

The most difficult obstacle encountered in my pond adventure, is overcoming the mindset of Largemouth Bass fishermen in our part of the country.

Everyone that has a pond believes they can raise ”trophy” LMB, without the knowledge or understanding the intensive management to achieve this goal.

Consequently every pond I have fished in our area is “bass heavy” with stunted bass. Admittedly my experience is limited in fishing private, poorly managed ponds.

The other obstacle encountered in speaking with friends and associates, is to explain that the non-reproductive traits of Hybrid Striped Bass, can overcome or completely eliminate this problem.

HSB are much easier to catch and will outfight a LMB, in addition is excellent table fare.

Everyone wants big LMB without realizing the intense management to achieve this goal.

I recall many posts on this forum advising to clearly define their pond objectives.

If early on, I had the information available to me through the resources of Pond Boss magazine and this forum, I could have avoided many mistakes – mainly dependent on LMB as primary predator, and overstocking channel catfish.

LMB become hook shy with heavy fishing pressure and become difficult to catch, as well as channel catfish.

CC are eating machines, and in my opinion pests - unless heavily fished. They become difficult to catch when becoming 8-10 pound pests and accustomed to a pelletized fish food diet.

We are correcting these mistakes slowly and surely, removing CC’s, slot limits for LMB and increasing numbers of HSB.

Forage base of BG and tilapia is supplemented with high protein fish food.
Bottom diffuser aeration has also been a major factor.

Much more than my 2 cents worth…
George Glazener

N.E. Texas ¼ acre and 2 acre ponds

I'd say that's nearly 3 cents worth.

But valid observations just the same. I can't really argue with any of these statements. Quite a few people SAY they want big LMB, but not many say they HAVE big LMB.

Very good points. My only objection is the CC 'pests' label. I have seen that channel cat on feed, readily take a piece of weiner under the pellets. A good set of skinning pliers will eliminate the hook shyness of the channels.

Dang, George I agree with every word...can't even get a good argument these days

My own 2 cents:

Ponds are vastly different than Lake Fork or Table Rock or Big Sam. Growing "trophy" bass in a small pond may be a worthy objective, but if you want/expect to catch those bass more than once (or even once in some cases) in their lifetime, you may be in for a rude surprise.

I believe many get locked into the stereotype of what some on the Forum have called the "tried and true". If you are happy with those results, then by all means stay with it. As we often say, its all about your objectives.

LMB are the glamor fish. Watch the recent Bass Masters Classic. They deserve the accolades as they are a great game fish and remarkable predator.

That does not mean they will perform the same way in a small pond. In fact, they do not. I don't know the precise numbers but do know with some certainty that if you put regular fishing pressure on Florida strain LMB, they become virtually uncatchable, especially in the presence of artificial feeding.

I call that the great myth of ponds. You won't read that in any books about pond management (at least the ones I have read), you definitely will not hear most pond managers ever say that...and please, I'm not directing these comments at anyone in particular. I've lost years chasing that elusive LMB pond and am still chasing it one last time in an F1 pond that has no outside artificial stimulants.

If I had read George's post 10 years ago, today I would have a fabulous pond with abundant HSB of all sizes, teeming with forage fish, replete with BG larger than the biggest plates at the local steak house, and containing the occasional surprise F1 LMB. I would go to Lake Fork for trophy LMB and have 24/7 fishing paradise out my back porch.

I'm now two years into that plan and well on track to achieving it, but its very hard to give up on the great LMB.

Burgermeister. Funny post!

I am still debating whether to go all LMB'S or all HSB's. I already know the road ahead of me if I go LMB's. HSB's I think are still very much fun to catch, also around here, they are 'rare' in private waters.
Reading these type of posts is really helping me not make the same mistakes. Since I am not retired (27 actually), don't have alot of money, and I am busy with many different things I keep leaning back towards HSB's. Thanks again for this forum and your posts/wisdoms.

I look at LMB as Von Neumann (self-replicating) Eating Machines that are useful to control the BG population. I plan on stocking HSB for Put-and-Take (at least once) after I have taken out most of the CC I already put in. My daughter and I love the one HSB we have now; I want to pellet feed, catch, and eat some without touching her beloved "Lt. Stripes" (I want to see how big one HSB can get, having first shot at a new pond with lots of forage).

George said: That's darn true for me. too. I think it's probably true even for posters who have been here all along (e.g. CB1), because this site continually advances the State of the Art of Pondmeistering, by suggesting, trying, evaluating, and critiqueing new ideas that I doubt are found anywhere else first. We have a lot of crazy/innovative people here, and if you present a strange new idea that's judged promising you are fairly likely to find someone to try it, even if you don't have the resources to do it yourself.

I think the choice of HSB bet LMB for the first time small pond (3.ac. or less) owners as a #1 pedator. The fact that in about 8-9 years or so
they'll( HSB) died of old age if you do nothing were the LMB do nothing more than breed & eat.
Who would not want a fresh start so to speak in the 1st ten years of your pond ?

This post and past post on the same subject convinced me to change my stocking plans this past spring. I cut back on the numbers of F1 bass and increased the size. Than added HSB as 50% of my preditor population. I also decided to add a 100 blue cats,threadfins, and talapia to the mix too push my forage base previously of just bluegill/red ear to the limit without feed or fertilzing my 13 acre pond. It seems to be working because in the mornings and evenings those HSB school in the open water sending water every where. Thanks guys.

I am interested in trying HSB, but I am concerned about mortality if caught and released. Does anyone know the survival rate at different water temps?
Possibly many HSB managers just plan to keep every HSB that they catch, so survival rate does not matter.
However if you treat Largemouth Bass the same way, keeping everyone you caught, then you would never have hook-shy LMB.
Any comments?

I got my HSB from Bruce Condello two years ago and they are thriving in my small farm pond. One great thing about them is that they are easy to catch and keep if I wish to decrease their numbers. My girlfriend's little daughter loves to watch them feed. That's worth it alone right there.

Granted, I'm a novice when it comes to HSB. All I know is what I've briefly read on the forum. I don't pretend to be well versed on them at all.

However!

It just seems peculiar to me that some people want to shy away from a fish that may become a little more difficult to catch (LMB) in favor for its easier kin (HSB). Everything you've done to manage your pond up to this point has been difficult. Why should fishing it be any different???

Quite frankly, if I caught a fish every time I wanted to, I'd have no interest in fishing anymore. Same goes for any other hobby/sport. A golfer who could hit the ball in the perfect spot everytime would first of all be a famous billionaire. But secondly, he'd also become passive about the sport and not passionate.

The reason there are multiple publications and forums dedicated to the overwhelming process of managing ponds for fish, like the LMB, is because it's not a simple task. Why would anyone want a hobby that doesn't test their skills?

Put me on a pond with some LMB that need some coaxing over a pond that could be fished just as successfully by a 5 year old as the owner ANY DAY.

See, there was an argument on the topic.

Jimmy! You're right, it really does come down to the individual goals of the landowner. Some people want a challenge for themselves, others would like kids and friends to be able to come over and immediately have action. These goals can be acheived with either species under the right circumstances. Ideally I'd like to have one pond with LMB as primary predator and one with HSB as top dawg. That's what I'm shooting for.

LBuck,

I think you're right on the mark. Having the best of both worlds is ideal.

On the one hand, you satisfy the serious angler. While on the other, you satisfy the beginner or the child.

I think BG are probably better though for beginners and children. HSB would require a little more supervision.

"It all depends on what you're goals are" is exactly right.

jimmy wheels,

This usually comes up in the form of a statement like "you guys just don't know how to fish for LMB and you want to take an easy way out" Thankfully, you were much more PC than that.

Catching HSB is not something that 5 year olds can readily do...except on perhaps pellet flies and or PomPom flies. In that case, landing them is also not assured. Catching them on "straight" flies and lures is challenging but not so much that you feel there is no chance to ever catch them.

To each his own. When I want challenging fishing, I go for Tarpon, Bonefish, and Permit, certainly not LMB. I want my ponds to be "fun" fishing for myself, yes, but more so for friends, family, and kids. I love for a young fisherperson to tie into a HSB. Its more fun for me than for them.

I do not consider fishing for LMB in my pond with the Floridas and feeders, etc. to be fun. I am an accomplished fisherman. I say that without bragging. I know George is an accomplished fisherman, more so than I am. I do not enjoy fishing in my pond, that I have spent untold hours and $ on, for two hours to catch maybe one small LMB. That is not my view of fun. I can have that kind of fishing anywhere.

If you want challenging LMB fishing, come to my pond with Floridas, feeders, and lots of forage fish. You will end up watching the LMB rather than fishing for them, because they are virtually uncatchable. That's just not my idea of fun.

If that is fun to you, then I recommend you stock only Florida LMB, install lots of feeders, grow lots of forage, and fish for LMB every day for a period of a couple of months. After that, you will have the "challenging" fishing you seek.

No thanks, I will stick to what I consider fun...but its a good discussion point. Thanks.

Me too. A "fun" pond with large BG and HSB and other pond(s) with LMB...but even in those other ponds, I want a LMB that can reasonably be caught. That's the whole point of the recent discussions on LMB aggressiveness and on experiments to make them more aggressive and on research to improve genetics for aggressiveness...if I can not find that, then the LMB are history for my ponds. The only purpose they would serve is to help raise large BG. Otherwise, they are history, as far as I'm concerned.

Meadowlark,

You make good and valid points. I guess the ideal situation for my fishing experience would be this:

• Solid forage base of BG, Redear and Tilapia
• Non pellet trained LMB as the majority predator, but not overcrowded
• Some HSB for dinner plate and kidos

That shall be my goal! Good luck to me!

Okay, now we are warming up for a good discussion. I consider a large BG (10 to 12+ inches) every bit as fun as a Tarpon in Mexico. Different but fun nonetheless. They are a prize worthy of any angler at any age. They are very challenging. I have special fly rigs to just target BG of that size. I consider them a treasure. I'm neither a child nor a beginner.

Jimmy, even my bluegills have become hook shy. That is a little more challenge than I need. I'll settle for something dumb enough to stretch my string.

I stick by my statement,…

Not to say BG can't be exciting on the right type of equipment, because they're great in that case. But, given the choice between a BG, HSB or LMB for a young child (3-6), I'm taking the BG each and every time. When that kid becomes a 7 year old, then things may begin to change.

Jimmy :

I understand . When one of my kids was 7-8 we were bass fishing out of a very small boat. She had a casting rod using a devils horse with about 10 feet of line out. She was not watching when a 6 pounder smashed the plug . The ensueing mele almost jerked the rod out of her hand , turned the boat around and almost swamped the boat. In addition because there was no slack in the line when the fish jumped it came unhooked and landed in the boat. The plug with all 9 hooks missed my head by about 2 in. She will never forget it and nither will I . I like BG and RE a lot also.

I would say : BG/RE are great for all ages and types but be careful with small kids if big bass { LMB or HSB } are present . We all know that hooks can hurt. ewest

Ahhh BG better for children than trying to catch LMB/HSB. I agree completely.

I kind of took the quote the other way, that BG were not worthy of anything but children fishing for them. My bad.

ewest,

Thanks for backing up my opinion with some proof positive proof!

So,
Can you catch and release HSB, or are they only fit for put & take?
I would like to stock the HSB if they can be caught/ released a few times (in their lifespan) without much damage/ however I have read that they might be frail in warm weather???

Gainesjs,

Here's what I do. Right now, I release every one under a couple of pounds to grow more and keep most fish over that size to eat. As time goes on, I'll probably raise that bar to three pounds and then four pounds as I get more variety of size in the pond. I have released a few larger ones and as yet, haven't seen any hookshyness...but that may come with time.

Yes, I've seen a real stress level in the larger HSB in hot weather. Not so much so, however for the smaller ones. They don't seem to be stressed out as bad when caught. To avoid that in larger fish, use appropriate tackle, i.e. get them in quickly and released safely.

I killed one three pounder because I caught it on a 5 wt with very light leader. The fish fought to the death, literally. It was DOA. That is the only one that has happened to me with so far. I'm still learning.

As far as catching them over and over, I just don't know when they "learn" or get conditioned because mostly they get consumed when caught if they are in that over 2 pounds class. Ask me again next spring, when I expect 4 pounders to be common place, and some 5's every now and then.