Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations All Bluegill Pond

I've been following this with some interest. I have been a lobbyist at the State and Federal level. I have testified on both domestic and on wildlife related issues.

For the most part, I agree with Norm but have seen a lot of instances where the well being of the public was of secondary concern.

Lusk doesn't like politics here and anything I say can be nothing but political ($$$$).

Norm, I wanted to E-mail you with some specifics but you don't list an E-mail address.

So, Dave if the State said you can't transport LMB or stock them, you would accept that?

If they said you can no longer catch fish unregulated from your private ponds, would you agree?

The days are not far off when PETA and those that support that kind of thinking, will try all kinds of ways to regulate our ponds and the fishing in them. No way will I ever accept something just because the Government says it is so, no way, no how. Obey the law, yes...but work like crazy to change it or prevent stupid laws from ever happening in the first place.

How about Tilapia? Just because one state prohibits them, are they right? I don't think so...I think they are either ill informed or swayed by special interest groups with agendas.

What about the water turkey, aka cormorant? In some states you can not do anything to protect your private property from them because of Government regulation passed by special interest groups. Is that right? Or is it special interests prevaling?

We should fight the blind PETA thinking every time it manifests itself, in whatever form. We should not trust our pond decisions blindly to Government bureaucrats who may or may not have our interests at heart.

No LMB transport...get real...but there are those who would support that and much more to regulate our ponds and fishing in them.

Summum just summa injuria: The rigour of the law is (sometimes) the height of injustice.

The well-wishers of the enviroment up in Salem are indeed extreme hardliners when it comes to "their" water, our ponds that retain it, and any fish that live in it. The escaping fish syndrome, be it into or out of my pond, is the biggy, though do understand- Ponds around me have whatever the owners want in them, and I do believe live-wells from boats do most the clandestined stocking. (-: Whether the state thinks so or not, CC, my main desire, reside in nearby ponds, but because they aren't legally stocked, they don't exist in the state's mind. Try hard here to understand the oxymoron of government intelligence...

The prob as I see it is, though I am a responcible sort, there are the selfish types that have actually stocked LMB, even bullheads and "exoctic" bait fish into local public lakes, literally turning the local fishery on it's ear in a bad way, if you care for trout fishing, as these lakes were famous for. So the few ruined it for the rest of us again. And life goes on.

But, again, whether the LMB, or CC, like my BG just 'end up' in my pond somewhere down the road, I will adhere to the "essence of the law", rather than the rigor, to assure all mankind that not one fish will escape down stream. By the way, I have NO down stream!!! (Rain fills the pond, the overflow meanders out into a pasture.)

Now, if I could just get the state to give me such a form to sign? (-:

My original post was really to get local information like Bassandgrass gave me, but the rest of the posts are good points also. It is important to stay within the law, lest we speak of fish-archy, all pond owners revolting against the tyranical powers at all levels.... (-:

Keep up the great posts!!!

Dave, it's nkopecky@iw.net.

I agree, this is a good and important discussion.

There are very few lakes that don't have an outlet. The Great Basin area of the western US is probably the only area that has places like that. In a major rain event (10+ inches), almost everything overflows. If we could confine everything to just our own property, that would be one thing. However, that's just about impossible to do. Now, what we do affects almost everyone else and so it's their business too. If you put a big hog confinement lot on your property next to mine, it may be on your property but let me tell you, I will have plenty to say about it.

Laws have to be applied evenly accross the board which means that they seldom apply well to every diverse situation. Rather than just saying to heck with everyone else, we need to come up with constructive ideas on how to work with these situations.

Amen. Really, bottom line? Think I'll call OSFW tomorrow, (in a falseto voice) and ask all the appropriate questions... (-: Though Bassandgrass did not mention a fish transport permit by Greyhound. If the hatchery will ship LMB without it, then I can see getting at least a few hundred LMB to control the growing population of BG. I'll contact my cousin's wife's best friend's uncle who is high up in government to get that CC restriction lifted. ((-:

I am still waiting for Norm's answer as to what to stock as predator for the legal BG.

I think that either LMB and/or CC will be fine, though I read in here that CC takes about 2 years to mature till they start eating BG. The LMB ought to be munching on the BG by the first year I would think? Sooner guys?

BM,

He's probably out looking for a predator for that hog farm next door.

DC,

I emailed the Oregon Fish and Wildlife department today and asked "if my neighbor gives me a few bass from his pond to stock in mine, would I need a transport permit?" I post here if I get an answer...gud luck on your endevors.

Here's a summary of the points I think should be made.

The idea that what we put into our lake stays there. That's just not true. Look at all of the posts about "how did this fish get into my pond". All of these ways that fish get into our pond are ways that they also leave it. Also, almost every lake will overflow at one time or another.

A species that might be very desireable in one place might be horrible in another. Snakeheads are probably the best example of it. Don and Rad have talked about how they are desireable in Thailand. Very few of us would want them in our lakes. Flathead catfish are a great fish but few of us want them in our lakes.

We shouldn't have to worry about transporting fish. Look back at all the posts by Bill Cody about accidently moving undesireable micro-organisms in water. Water in a live well is one of the best ways to transport zebra mussels, Eurasian milfoil and a host of other really bad species. No wonder state agencies want to prevent the movement of these species as much as possible.

What's being said here in some cases is this. I don't care if I destroy your fishery as long as I can do whatever I want. Ultimately, this is the idea I oppose.

Make fun of me all you want for being responsible in my actions. If we're not all responsible, I don't think we deserve our lakes.

Good discussion, let's keep it up. Please address my points one at a time. Let's focus on the issues. It's only by discussing our different points of view on issues like this that we can learn.

Norm, you have all the criticisms, but no solutions, Again, what do you suggest in Double-Camps case? No long answers, just legal fish.

I don't recall anyone saying that. It is a gross overstatement of my own personal beliefs.

Neither do I recall anyone saying, implying, or otherwise thinking that snakeheads are ok. Overstating to make a point, does not make a point with me.

I believe that all of us recognize the need for controls on certain species. Goodness, the subject was trying to find a predator for this situation and the restrictions on LMB.

Some restrictions are necessary. It is foolish to believe you can eliminate all transport of fish, however. Are you saying that only pond owners transport zebra mussels and not fish providers? I find that beyond credible. Are we going to prohibit fishing in public waters with boats on trailors because they may carry a bad weed to another lake? I don't believe so, even though that indeed happens.

Laws have to be reasonable, not the results of special interest groups or those with agendas. It is unreasonable to outlaw LMB, if indeed that has happened in Oregon. LMB have eliminated trout you say? Have you ever been to Arkansas, on the Little Red River, home of the once world record brown trout, where you can catch LMB,SMB, rainbow, brown, and cuts all in the same rivers.

No, I disagree, Norm...what's being said here is that laws need to be reasonable. Are there risks? Yes, certainly there are risks in allowing boat trailers to go from lake to lake, there are risks in allowing individual freedoms in the interest of pond management, but life is about risks. I do not want Government to protect me from all risks, only reasonable ones.

The determination of what is reasonable is where we might seriously differ. You have mentioned that Tilapia can not be stocked in some states "for good reason", and yet I have not seen those good reasons. You have implied that we pond owners should not be allowed to protect our property from water turkeys, aka cormorants. The environmentalist who passed the protection of water turkeys, were well meaning, I'm sure....but they have never been to Mexico where water turkeys are present in uncountable numbers...endangered, I hardly think so.

If the discussion is on what is reasonable, then I'm in...if its to accuse me of not being caring if I destroy anyone's fishery, then I'm out.

Hey ML, you ought to know me better than that by now. The veneer of civilization just ain't that thick on me.

I obey fish and game laws. No way I would shoot an extra deer or exceed the limit on fish from local lakes. Even if I could hit a dove, I wouldn't take any extra. However, I will not let any governmental body tell me how to protect my own property. I have every intention of being the number one predator and top of the food chain on my ponds/land. I'll smack a water turkey in a hurry. I also shoot the squirrels that are digging holes through the side of my house. Even if it is the city limits. Gotta admit that I don't have the strength of character to do it with a cop watching.

Overall, I think the game laws of Texas are reasonable. We got a permit for grass carp but it wasn't a real problem. However, if I raised chickens and a chicken hawk was getting them, I would take care of business and keep my mouth shut. I know they, like almost all birds, are Federally protected. Now, I wouldn't go on your land and shoot one.

It is illegal in Texas to shoot neighbors dogs. I know a guy that shot a neighbors dog that was chasing his colts. He went to jail because he refused to pay the fine. Evidently, he was supposed to call the Sheriffs Dep't and hire a lawyer to collect damages.

Again, for the most part, I will obey the law. But only up to a limit. There is a lot of difference in the law and justice. I think we all know that some laws are enacted and enforced in a discretionary ($$$) manner.

BTW, if I needed a predator, I would get one.

Dave,

I have no disagreement with you at all...and I hope you will still let me come to the festival in mid-August!

Double Camp, I would disagree that it takes 2 years for cats to start eating bluegills. Everything in the water eats everything smaller. Within a short time of stocking my 4 to 6 inch cats, I saw them chasing schools of fatheads across the water. I doubt that they know the difference between a baby bluegill and a minnow. I caught one before it was 2 years old. In it were 2 baby turtles about the size of a quarter.

Norm, although I don't totally agree with you on the above referenced legal matters, I appreciate your outlook. Without guys like you the world would be a much poorer place.

Wow, Dave is on a roll here I would never shoot my neighbors dog...but I hunt coyotes at night and all you see are the eyes. Well, on second thought, my night vision equipment is pretty good, all I "look at" are the eyes. And if a dog is on "my" land, trying to eat one of the deer (State owned), or rabbits, I fear it's really hungry and defend myself

Just for kicks here's what it's like in Minnesota. You have to have a permit to put any fish in any water, public or private. It is illegal to move a fish from any water to another without a permit. Your pond is inspected before you are given a permit to make sure you have no potential for overflow and losing fish. Never the less you cannot put any fish in your pond that isn't already found in your watershed. When you get a permit you have to specify who will be transporting fish, vehicle description, license plate, date and approximate time the fish will be transported, and route that will be driven. Transport must be within 30 days of permit application. You can't buy any fish from anywhere other than a local Minnesota licensed and inspected hatchery. And last but not least, you can only catch fish in your own pond if you have a fishing license and only using legal methods (no nets, traps, etc.) and you must obey all state possession limits. We in Minnesota affectionately refer to our state as the state where nothing is allowed. Having said all that, I personally know one of our fisheries biologists and he can give you a good reason for every rule.

Bz,

I don't doubt for a second that he can give those reasons...but I also know fish biologists that give me good reasons why grass carp, under certain limitations and Tilapia, are fine for our Texas private waters. Texas Parks and Wildlife have those professionals on their staff and they are very careful, but reasonable.

Maybe its a regional thing. Seems like those in the Northern tier of states like more Government regulation and want less choice for individuals and those of us in Texas at least, are ferverantly (sp) independent. Generalizations are bad, I know, but just going from the attitudes expressed on this Forum, it certainly appears that way.

I'm very happy to live in Texas...and I got here as soon as I could.

p.s. you can't even decide for yourselves how many and what kind of fish you can keep from your private ponds? And you tolerate that?

Eastland, I wasn't the guy who went to jail.

However, about 3 years ago, it got to the point where we no longer even found deer tracks on our land. It was covered with dog tracks. Repeated requests to the neighbors went unheeded. I have 205 acres where deer sightings, although not rare, are unusual and exciting. Previously, we saw several herds of does per day. Lots of bucks. Life was good.

The deer have never returned but neither have a bunch of the dogs. I have various management plans for my property. This is the one I enjoy the least.

The TPWD game biologist says to shoot stray dogs. The Sheriff's Dep't says to call them. Heck, they have 6 Deputies and a full time drug cooking problem. The last thing they have time for is complaints about stray dogs. Time for self help. Nuff said.

This gets to Norms point of the hog farm next door becoming his business. In a perfect world we would all have considerate neighbors. They would consider the odors and potential resulting runoff of affluents into his ponds or onto his property and locate elsewhere. They would be considerate about his right to enjoy his property. They would also be considerate about his property value. However, if they are breaking no law or if the law is simply unenforceable from a practical standpoint he can either sell for a reduced price and move or try to do something to protect his property.

BTW, several of my neighbors have abandoned the idea of hunting their own property and are paying for deer leases elsewhere. They are, however, obeying the law.

Heres one to justify; Why is (in Texas at least) if you shack up with a women and present yourselves as a couple for a while; The Goverment/courts considers you same as married (common law marriage). although you never got a permit or license to do so. No fine or crime. But just try to present yourself as a common law Fisherman, Hunter or Fish hauler! Which could cause more problems in the long run ?

ML said:

I don't think it's a simple as North-South (this coming from, as I once heard it described, "up South in Ohio). I suspect that if we mapped out the permissive vs. restrictive boundaries on a map of the country, it would tend to follow the famous "red state-blue state" divisions.

That's as far into the potential politics of this issue as I care to get. I have a lot of respect for people arguing both sides, I can see legitimate reasons for both sides, and in the argument over whether the glass is half full or half empty, I would like to point out that the glass was designed with a 100% safety margin wrt capacity.

Meadowlark, I didn't say I like the rules we have or did I say the biologists reasons are all good ones. The laws are what they are and were in existence long before I was of voting age. And I think Theo has it right, we have been a Democrat dominated state for a long time. Sadly I think the democratic party (I'm not saying all democrats) has turned into the closest thing to socialism that it can be. The demoocrats in this state are always supportive of anything that represents more control which they think is good for the collective population. That's as far as I want to get into politics. I envy you guys from Texas. If I didn't love Minnesota for other reasons (family lives here, lots of lakes, lots of woods, lots of fishing and hunting) I would be the first to move to Texas or elsewhere.

If you let them polititions will be glad to tell you when you can wipe.

Here in NC you can fish in your county of residence without a license so long as you use natural bait.

You & your family members can fish & hunt on your land without any license.

No restrictions on manner of taking in private waters. It belongs to you!

You Texans aren't the only freedom lovers!

What natural predators do you have in that part of the country?