Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations low lying land - excavate and wait...?

This is my first post and introduction.

Well, here goes... I have been trying to keep up with the pondboss forum for the past year or so. I can't say I've read every single post and all the archives, but I've paid attention to the topics that interested me and tried to learn from what I've read.

First, I'd like to say thanks to all of you who answer questions and post feedback for those who seek advice. A public forum like this is an awesome thing! It's what makes the internet fun and useful.

I am located in East Texas. Pines, mosquitos, heat, and humidity... it's all I've ever known.

I am the proud owner of 17 acres in San Jacinto County. My place is backed right up to Sam Houston National Forest. There are big beautiful oaks and pines all over.
The land is un-developed. Nothing but a fence around it. No utilities, no driveway, no nothing. I love it just the way it looks now, if I could only convince my wife to live in a tent, I'd be set!

I sincerely hope to build a home there in the next few years. But I am going to need a LOT of dirt to build up a 1500' driveway, a house pad, and I gotta drop in a couple of pipes to cross a low spot. That's where the pond comes in.

Now for my pond diggin' dream...

The property is kinda football field shaped - about 3 acres wide by 5 acres deep. The back corner of the property is a low spot that stays boggy and wet most of the year. (Of course, it's almost bone dry right now with this dry spell we got going on!) When it rains hard, (and I sincerely believe it will again... some day... ) water flows off the National Forest behind me and also from my neighbor's place, across the middle of my property and off to the neighbor on the other side.
I would like to dig a pond right back there in that low area. I am guessing I could end up with a pond about 3/4 to 1 acre in size.

The soil there is a sand and clay mix with a little iron ore. Using post hole diggers, I did a "poor man's field test". It was a lot heavier in clay than sand when I got down past the top foot of soil. If I had to guess, I'd say it's at least 60 to 70% clay down to about 5 feet.
I really do think a pond right there would hold water. Especially with the potential volume of water shed to keep it fed.

My objective is really more a driveway and housepad construction with the pond being a good excuse to have a source of my own dirt without paying to have it hauled in.

Here's my first question...
Can I simply excavate the area I want the pond to be without constructing a levee or dam?

In really simple terms, I'm thinking I can just excavate the area I want and let it fill. Whatever water flows out and away on the low side will determine the water level and pond shape. Right?

Sorry for the long post. I got to typing and the words just kept a comin'.

Any and all advice is appreciated!
Thanks!
Ronnie

Hi ETW, and welcome.

If your future pond site is low and you get a substantial amount of standing water, you will need a levee. It won't need to be high at all...just a foot above the highest level of the standing water should do it. Otherwise your fish will escape, and you could possible get trash fish (depending on the your proximity to any bayou or drainage ditch)

If the standing water is local... doesn't adjoin drainage ditches or bayous... no levee is needed. However, you will need some shallow edges for runoff to enter so it won't erode the banks and silt up your pond.

Of course a levee will block all the the nice runoff water, so you will need a section of your levee to have a "reverse spillway" to allow the runoff water to flow into the pond. Then, of course the levee will need some sort of fish fence or rip rap section to keep the ungrateful critters from bailing out.

Runoff from heavily wooded areas usually cause tea-colored water, and it can be slightly acidic. Ag lime will help this, but if the water is still too acidic you may need to add some powdered lime occasionally.

Good luck, and please keep us updated on your project.

Hey East Texas,

First, welcome to the forum. I'm a relative newcomer (6 months or so) myself.

Your place sounds very similar to mine. I've been working on putting a pond in since January, and between weather, contractors, test holes, new contractors, etc. I've yet to get it built.

I will caution you, however, to dig a deeper test hole. We found layers of sand in mine, which would definitely not hold water, and have since redesigned the thing to plate over the sandy layers. If I'd just dug the thing it would fill up during the wet months, and drain bone dry in the summer. Spend $150 bucks for someone with a backhoe to come in and dig some test holes for you. Also, contact the NRCS for some free advice.

ETW,

Welcome aboard. I'm just north of you in Polk County. With our high rainfall rates and assuming you have good clay, your pond should be no problem. If you have nearby neighbors with good ponds, thats usually a good indication that you have good clay also.

Don't be shy about asking questions...we all have a lot to learn and can usually learn something from just about every question.

I built a pond without a dam and I have built a pond with a dam. I can tell you from experience that building a pond without a dam requires a lot more dirt removal. Because of this it costs more to build. However if you need the dirt anyway it's a way to kill two birds with one stone which is why I built my pond in the first place. I did add a spillway because of the erosian that was occuring at the end of the pond where the water was leaving. Good Luck!

Thanks for the welcome everyone.

Bobad - I did wonder about how to build some kind of fish fence on the low side where the water will leave my property and head on downhill. I figured during the flood seasons, it would be lost cause. This area basically turns into a shallow creek when I get a whole lotta rain.

When you talk about a reverse spillway, could the shallow edge or basically no edge at all be considered a reverse spillway? I need to allow my neighbor's water in and the water that flows down out of the woods into the pond. It's not a steep slope, but it's sloped enough to make the water flow thru quickly.

I was thinking originally that I would pile up a nice wide bank on both sides for folks to stand and keep their feet dry but not necessarily as a levee all the way around for holding water.

Poland Jack - Good advice. I will definitely pay to have some big test holes dug before I go all the way with the pond.

I called and spoke with our county NRCS guy. He posed an interesting question that I hadn't really thought of. I explained that I really wanted the dirt excavated to be used for a driveway and housepad. He suggested that a "good" soil area for a pond would of course be heavy in clay. But that would be the opposite soil I would want to use for a housepad and it wouldn't be the best for a driveway either because it wouldn't drain quickly enough.

He quickly gave me a disclaimer that he was in no way qualified to say whether or not my soil will be good for housepad construction. I think that was just a standard "we won't be responsible..." quote.

Hmmm...
I better get a construction expert or someone with driveway building experience to take a look at the soil that comes outta those test holes and be sure I can use it for the driveway and housepad. I won't know myself.
The NRCS guy did tell me that if I could meet him at his office, we could look at the soil charts for my property and that would give me some guidelines to go by.

James Holt - What kind of soil did you have to work with? What area are you in?

Anybody think the soil could be good enough for all 3 uses?

Thanks.

ETW,

Yes, it is very possible. Speaking generally of the soils in nearby Polk county, the top three feet generally would be very suitable for your other projects. Specific locations can vary considerably and that's why your soil test is a good idea.

On the subject of fish fence mentioned by BOBAD, after trial and error I have found the best such fence is one made out of cattle panels. They come in 16 ft sections and for me cutting one in half (which the dealer will do for you for no charge usually) makes a perfect fence on two spillways when anchored to a couple of short steel fence posts. Get the panels (I'm not talking about gates but those heavy wire stock panels) that have the tighter gap at the bottom...makes a permanent maintenance free and effective fish fence. I've lost enough grass carp to pay for several of those panels.

ETW,

I have about the same situation as you.

After a lot of thinking, the only way my pond can fill yet not flood or lose fish is by making a levee higher than the highest floods. I am going to make a 12' cut in my levee and dig a little below th esurface. I will fill the hole with limestone gravel, and pour concrete or lay bricks atop the gravel. I will then restore the levee on top of the gravel bed. (I call this a "gravel bed filter"). The pond will rise and fall with the floods, but nothing gets in or out... neither fish, silt, nor debris.

Thanks for the replies and comments.
I want to post an update here but I'm gonna start another topic too because I have some new questions about pond measurements.

Two days ago I met with a cousin in the family who is in the dozer/construction business. His profession is not pond building but building house pads. He did tell me that he and his brother dug a 5 acre pond a couple years ago.

He came out to my property and we walked around the place and I showed him what I had in mind for dozer work.

As I mentioned from the start, my main objective is to clear a driveway and housepad and move whatever dirt it will take to build up that driveway and have it properly graded.
I'd like to put a house on the back corner of 17 acres so that makes my driveway well over 1500 feet long!

After we checked it all out, he threw some ballpark numbers at me for what it would cost to do what I "need" done.
Assuming that the dirt I have will be suitable for driveway and housepad, (and I think it will be) he roughly calculated that he will need to move about 2500 cubic yards of dirt to get that part done. He is also gonna have to push down and move a fair amount of trees and stumps in the process.

Then came the subject of digging a pond...

Moving any "extra" dirt will run me about $3.50 a cubic yard.
Estimating digging enough to make a 3/4 to 1 acre pond averaging 4 to 5 foot deep, (and I took it that it was a rough estimate)... He said to tack on another 12,000 dollars bringing my total to about $24,000 for everything.

Daaaaang! I WANT a 1 acre pond... however, I don't have the money for what I want.
I gotta spend my money on what I need at the moment.

I'm foolin' myself if I even think I'm gonna sleep on it and then make a decision. My current finances tell me that I can only afford the work that I gotta have.

I will, however, end up with a "hole" that he will work into a nice shape when it's all said and done. That hole is what I'm gonna have when he removes about 2500 cubic yards of dirt.

If I go thru with it all, that 2500 cubic yard hole in the ground is gonna be my defacto pond.

Ronnie

ETW,

By my math, that's pretty close to a 1/4 acre pond about 6 feet deep. That's a good start on your eventual pond 1 acre pond. Maybe you can build it so that you can easily add on as time and money permits.

The last 7 or 8 PB mag issues have had articles by Mike Otto on pond building. If you aren't a subscriber, I would buy them and study before getting a dozer in.

Meadowlark,
Thanks for the replies. I was in your neck of the woods this week to talk to the NRCS guy in Livingston. It's really pretty out there the way the hills roll. My part of SJ county is relatively flat with some gradual slopes.

The NRCS guy gave me some very general information about soil types. He said that since soils can vary so much within a large area, there is no substitute for digging test holes to see what's actually there.
I wasn't asking for any federal assistance, just free advice and helpful information. He said they stay busy most of the time with construction contracts anyway so a small pond for a small land owner like me would be way down the bottom on their priority list.
He did print some aerial photos of my land taken in 2004. That was cool to have. And he gave me a list of dirt contractors that they have worked with.

I've called about 6 or 7 different dozer contractors and I'll hopefully meet with 2 or 3 this weekend to get some bids for the dozer work I need done.

From the conversations I've had so far, it looks like the work I need done is going to break down like this:
1. Cost to clear about 2 or 3 acres of brush and trees.
2. Cost to move a cubic yard of soil from point a to point b. (So far, I've been told $3.50 a yard)
3. Included in the costs above is spreading the dirt to build a 1500' driveway and about a 60x100 house pad.

As for what I end up with for a pond, it's all going to depend on how much dirt gets moved for the driveway and house pad.

Thanks,
Ronnie