Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations natural muck removal

very well put BZ. I also have a little remorse, but then again, there are many people with lots of money who dont want to spend time to research who will still buy the name brands.
I am always reading ingredients of name brand and store brand medicines, only the label is different.

Just like Gloria Vanderbilt vs. no name jeans; they take they shape of what is placed into them!

I found the site that tells about the one flush http://www.prolabinc.com/instructions/oneflush.html

Thanks for the info Aaron. I think I'll try some One Flush.

there is a much cheaper bacteria I found today that is exactly like one flush http://www.flushitsolutions.com/pricing.htm

I read the info at the sites posted about the septic treatment bacteria. The way I understand it you will need alot of this stuff for a pond. From what I gather the packets are for 500 - 1500 gal. septic systems. That's alot of packets for a 1.5 acre pond. I'm all for saving money but I'm not convinced we're comparing apples to apples here.
I just purchased Aquatron and Waste and Sludge reducer. 10Lbs. each will treat my pond for 1 year. Price $417.00. Yeah, that's alot of money but it is specifically for a pond and tested as such.
I'm not saying the other stuff won't work but I don't think the quantities packaged are intended for ponds. The only reference coming close was for a lagoon and it said 12 packets a day.
Just my 2 cents.

Houston, there is merit in what you are saying. Any way you slice it, they want you to pay a lot for supplemental microbes. With good bottom aeration, natural bacteria will develop very rapidly, but we Americans are always looking for instant gratification and thus will pay a premium for it.
Our point is that the brewing process, including injection of air at optimum temps. will multiply the counts very rapidly, doubling in 20-30 minutes. That is the key. Then of course good aeration.
One post under aquatic vegetation, vaguely pointed to increased weed growth after using aeration for 3 wks, when the idea is to totally change the dynamics of the pond, but not overnight. I am very sure that any of the many formulas and methods of getting microbes to work will help aaccomplish that. We are all looking for some positive feedback from your pond. Good luck with it.

Burger, If the brewing of bacteria for septic system will work I'm all for it. I think I'll even give it a try when my stuff is delivered.
So I take it you're saying that the bacteria count double or triples in a couple of hours?
I did some contracting work at a sewage treatment plant a few years ago and watched, (yes you could actually see)the bacteria working in the tanks. It's pretty amazing how fast they break down the crud. The cleaned water comes off the top and looks like it came from the tap. Don't think I'd want to drink it though.

Yes. Houston, that's how it's done. Think about it, if dried spores are thrown in a pond or flushed down a toilet, they will work, but are not given the best scenario to multiply. If you mix it up in a bucket, keep it warm in the sun or garage, feeding it O2(minnow bucket aerator, small bilge pump, etc.) for 24 hrs. it is like buying many more spores. In septic system use, it is not part of the directions, because there is plenty of spores to get things going in a small, 1500 gal. tank. Brew it up for ponds. Some suppliers say that, others dont, but no way I would ever pro-rate the amount for septic tank to pond size. Couldnt afford it.

Wish I still had that research article...the one about the Lake in Egypt backed up by the Aswan dam. They had a problem with muck build-up with thousands of people living on the shoreline and turned Tilapia loose on the problem. They documented an actual water depth increase of two to three inches per year due to the Tilapia consuming the bottom muck.

Applying the same logic, when I renovated an old pond recently, I pushed the muck into an "island" in the middle of the pond. The Tilapia are probably in fish heaven right now eating that stuff...in a couple of years I expect most of it will be gone, and if it isn't, I'll be surprised.

In another post, I said that I was feeding algae to my LMB and HSB...in this case, in that old pond, I'm feeding muck to fancy F1 LMB. Oh, yes there is that intermediate step where the Tilapia beget offspring which are then consumed by the LMB...food for thought? No pun intended

I have spoken with the people at flush-it. I should be receiving 10# for a one acre test at lower cost than the bacta-clean. I still have a few hot months left this year for it to work the pond. The Zep has not been to impressive to this point. I do see some changes but not enough to talk about. I have a one acre pond elsewere to try the new test on to compare the results. Thank to all who have contributed to this point in helping us find an alternative product.

Aaron,

Be sure and check the temp and ph of the water. Temp certainly won't be a problem but high ph could slow things down.Be sure and let us know how it goes.

Chip

How many months of the year can you add bacteria and still have it "work" the muck in the south? Say in the area of northern Texas. I was asked this question but I am not familiar with southern waters, temps or ph levels compaired to here in the north.

In my opinion Bacta-Clean wins the best for your money award. I brought Pro Flush to the forum when I discovered it on the web. I already put some in my pond. Someone else, perhaps Ric, told us about Bacta-clean. In looking for a factual way to compare products I figured that if one standardizes on the number of bacteria desired per gallon of pond water one could compare any product that quotes a bacteria count. For other products there's really no way to compare. If you pick a bacteria count based on recommended dosage (I used the dosage recommended by Pro Flush which is one packet per 1500 gallons). This results in a certain number of bacteria per gallon. If you compare the amount of Bacta-clean HC required to get that same concentration you will find the Bacta-clean can reach that concentation at 1/6th the cost as Pro Flush which up until now was the cheapest I've found for a given amount of bacteria. The question still remains as to exactly how much is required to do the job and the fact that a lot of products don't quote bacteria count so they are unknowns. It appears several of us have used various products already so we'll see what the evidence suggests in a few months. I look forward to more reports.

bz, thanks for the post. Most bang for the buck, bactaclean. Brew it up, let it multiply, then release it. Sounds good to me.

Not to disagree, but if the cfu is the same as the bacta-clean wouldn't it be logical to use the same recommended dose of the septic cleaner in the pond as the bacta clean? I just purchased 10# of the one-flush at 9.7 billion count for $315 shipped. They are working on a bulk discount for their product now. This price was for the packet (extra labor and processes) form of it. I believe it was stated earlier that the bacta clean 10 billion count cleaner was $1000 for 25# bulk. In doing the math it still seems to be cheaper even without the bulk discount at this point. Please correct me if I am wrong but one would think that in using the one-flush in a septic (as directed on the label) you would add alot larger dose per gallon to break down the material faster before it would be destroyed by solvents, cleaners, and soaps. This is just a personal opinion but I would think that the dose would stand alot better chance to multiply in a pond than in a septic tank. Therefore the dosage would be smaller per gallon in a pond. I am not replying to say that anyone is wrong but I still think it may be cheaper. Like I said before, please correct me if I am wrong or over looking something.

9.7 billion cfu for $30 per pound without the discount yet figured in.

or

10 billion cfu for $40 per pound with a 25lbs discount

Thanks for all of the input so far. It has really gotten my head spinning too. I have been on this night and day calling emailing and what not to try to figure a cheaper way for people like me that are a little tight.

Yea, me too, tightwad, and head spinning. i just hope we save enough to buy some generic Excedrin!

When the manufacturer says 9.7 billion or 10 billion CFU you have to know how much product it takes to get this. The One Flush I'm using is something like 56 million per 1/2 ounce. The bacta-clean was something like 10 billion per gram. There are 14 grams per 1/2 ounce so the Bacta Clean has 140 billion per 1/2 ounce. So if you apply them at the same rate, that is x bacteria per gallon, you will use a lot less Bacta Clean and when you figure the cost into the equation the Bacta Clean is cheaper. I may have even figured the cost wrong in my last post in that I think I used 56 billion for 1/2 ounce of One Flush rather than 56 million. That makes the Bacta Clean cheaper than I thought. Now you just need to decide how much you should put in but whatever the number it will take less dollars worth of Bacta Clean to get the same bacteria per gallon.

http://www.prolabinc.com/instructions/oneflush.html

It states here that it has 9.7 billion per gram in the one-flush not 1/2 oz or packet. The packets are half oz. (135.8 cfu per packet) Then that would make it cheaper right? How many one-flush products are out there? This link is to the one I purchased. The bacta clean states 10 Billion per gram with bulk discount. The one flush states 9.7 billion per gram. The one flush is 25% cheaper before they give a bulk loose powder discount. Please show me what else I am missing, because I still cannot find it cheaper to use bacta clean over one flush.

AaronHome, you are correct on the bacteria count. The source of my confusion is I found that I have two web addresses on differenct computers for the same product. One is a web site for someone that sells ProLab products and that's where I got the 56 million number. The site you show is on my other computer and indeed shows 9.7 billion. I hope that web site is correct. If it is there is roughly equal bacteria in each gram of One flush versus bactaclean, so if you got the One flush cheaper per pound than bacta clean it is indeed a better price. Unfortunately some of my research and posts were done from one computer and some from the other. That got me confused. Geez, sorry about that. What kind of price did you get on the bulk one flush? The info I have says bacta clean $38/lb and One Flush is $9 per 3 1/2 oz packets which is $96 per pound. Did you get a better deal than #38 per lb on One Flush?

Aaron, about the ZEP not being too impressive; note that it would take 10 times amount of ZEP as one flush or flush it for the same bacteria count. But guess what, it cost 10% of the price.$4 vs. 36-40$. I think there is price fixing. All the calculations and researching that we do. Bottom line, there is not much difference in CFU count per gm. vs. cost.
Has anyone noted local distributors for flush it or 1 flush, or is it solely by order?

I found One Flush at the local Mills Fleet Farm store. This is a midwestern farm store, don't think they have any in Texas. I called every hardware, home improvement, and any other store I could think of before I found it. I've concluded that Aaron did find a better deal buying the One Flush for $31 a pound. I think he got it direct from the manufacturer. That compares to $38/lb for the Bactaclean which is the same bacteria content. I paid the same price for the small packets as on the manufacturers web site, about $9 for 1.5 ounces which is something like $96 per pound. So Aaron got a great discount in bulk. Aaron, can you tell us who to call to get One Flush in bulk? Also phone number?

I have been talking with Bill Zeise at solution@telenet.net. He is the one who has made all the responses to my emails. He sent me 10# of packet form One-Flush for $300.00 plus shipping to test it for pond use. He said his "grower" already has people using it for pond sludge removal. This is NOT the discounted price for loose powder. He said the price would be lower because there would be less labor involved in the "packet" labor, weight, and packaging. I received 10# today and I am testing it in 2 garden ponds (1000 gal) and one 1 acre pond. I used one 16 oz. container of Zep in one small pond and one 1/2 oz. packet in the other small pond.

The web site for the flush it is:

http://www.flushitsolutions.com/flushit.htm

Their is a PDF link for information purposes.
This does not reflect the bulk packet price I was given to try it out. Like I said it will be much cheaper when they get bulk loose powder prices available.

Burgermeister,

I see what you are saying. It is about the same cost for both. So if you were to use the Zep @ the bacteria count recommended earlier in this post for the bacta clean of 10# per acre you would use 100# of the Zep per acre over the course of the year to get the same cfu of bacteria into your pond. You could probably start at 10# for your first dose per acre. But the price of the Zep @ 100# would still be around $450 for the same bacteria. I paid about $4.50 for a 16 oz. can at Home depot here locally. I have still yet to find a local supplier of the one flush solution or the flush -it solution.

I thought I would give an update on the one flush experiment. ML has brought it up and I do want to keep up with it.

I am nearly a month out since using the one flush. I was starting to see quite a bit of algea at the beginning of this post. I cannot prove my results other than photos but it seems that the pond is reacting in a great way. The FA is about 50% of what it was. The algea was a light green color before and now it is a real dark but not dead color green. I never ended up with any floating matts. My visiblity is still great and I have what I would say is a perfect "bloom". I was experiencing what looked to be a non lethal crash every week or so. I have not seen any crashes since adding the one flush. The overall fish activity and pond appearance seems to be getting better and better. I do run an aerator and have not changed anything since I started. My neighbors pond has more algea and floating matts now than it did a month ago so I have pretty much ruled out weather as being a factor. If anyone has any ideas what else could be a factor in the algea going away please let me know. I would greatly appreciaite it.

AaronhomeIN,

Has it rained recently? I've noticed that algae will often disappear from the surface following a good rain.

Good update.