Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Quote from ACoE "We are trying to discourage people from building ponds"

For those of you who have read my posts over the past couple of months, things are going from bad to worse. Here is a short background...

I have 67 acres of secluded land with a nice stream running through it. How big of a stream? You can take a giant step over it. I want to put in a 13' high dam and back up about 6-7 acres of water. The NRCS (very nice, frendly people) say they can only help me if my pond is for irrigation of crops or watering livestock. OK, so how many cows, horses, goats do I need to qualify? No one can or will say. They tell me to go to the ACoE.

Last week, I call the Corps, and they tell me that the only way I can even hope to build this is to "mitigate". OK, what does that mean? It means I have to pay them about $200,000 for the permit! Why, I ask? Quote: "Because we are trying to discourage people from putting in any more private ponds".

It would be very easy for me to go off here about the inherent rights (or lack thereof) of private property owners. Instead, I just want to ask, if they cannot give me a valid reason why I cannot build a pond, then should I should be able to build it. Right? By the way, there are no "wetlands" or other issue like that involved here.

There are two reasons for me sharing this story. First, I would like some advice from anyone who has had a similar experience. Heck, I would just like to hear from someone who has followed the rules and gotten a permit for a recreational pond. (not for farm use)
Second, I want to make everyone on this forum aware of what is going on.

I have had several people tell me to "just go ahead and build it". Well dog gone it, I just should not have to break the rules and subject myself to the possibility of fines, or worse, just to build a pond in my back yard. I am at a complete standstill on my project now. I don't know where to go next. Please share your thoughts and advice.

Jersey, I feel bad for your situation. I really suggest you get in touch with one of the US Senators for your state. Call the office, and they'll connect you with one of the senator's aides. Politely and persuasively explain your situation to the aide Then ask the aide how you go about donating to the senator's campaign. Then follow up that conversation with a letter and a check for a few thousand bucks.

I had mentioned before about finding out which of the two senators was closer to re-election time.

The US Senators have a lot of stroke, and that's no joke.

This is exactly what I would do if I was in your situation.

Let's say you don't want to mess with livestock - the agriculture angle may still be the easiest. I would see about leasing pasture to someone running cattle or sheep nearby (hopefully you're not too secluded to preclude that). Then I'd spend a couple thousand dollars to fence off some acreage for pasture below your intended dam site. Bring in the livestock, and hey, you need to put in a dam to water them! Your pasture payments should recover some or all of your fence costs, depending on how long you want the livestock on your property (I think a multi-year commitment will be required to interest a farmer and show sufficient agricultural usage).

Who knows, you may end up liking the smell of manure and get your own cattle (it only took me 15 years to get to like it).

sheep are cheap and easy to keep. Pigs are too, and they taste better.

The first thing I would do is rotenone the stream. The last thing you need is to find snail darters in your crick.

Jersey,

The ACoE Permit process can be intimidating and cumbersome, but it is required in most States.
Navigate to Army Corps of Engineers web site and locate: Application for Department of the Army Permit (33CFR 325) … ENG FORM 4345 – Online.
Complete this two page document and send back to the ACoE with a nice aerial photo of proposed project area.
This puts the monkey on their backs! Hopefully in a few weeks you will receive a letter back from the Corps. That’s right, only a letter explaining that you have or do NOT have permission to construct.
If you get permission the letter will read similarly:
“We have reviewed your request for Department of the Army authorization for a pond project (Eitel Structure #3) in South Antelope Creek. The site is located in the SW ¼ of Sec 34, Township 34 N, Range 57 West, Sioux County, Nebraska. Based on the information you provided, this office has determined that your work is authorized by the Department of the Army Nationwide Permit No. 43………..”

And that is about all you get from the Corps!

Once you get “permission to construct” from the Corps, check with other local and State authorities to get their blessing. Some engineering may be required. Engineering may not only be required but it protects you from your neighbors, your neighbors from you and you from yourself. Based on the height of your proposed structure, the amount of water impounded and the size of the contributing drainage area, your dam may fall into one or all of the following categories: (1) In case of dam failure; very little if any downstream damage will occur, (2) possible death of livestock, damage to downstream infrastructure, buildings and property, (3) Possible loss to human life.

I agree, its a very frustrating process, but look at the bright side; you may have a real nice pond someday!

Good Luck,

Ed

Jersey,
Not sure where Jersey GA is located, but we work all over the state, mostly middle or north. I have probably stocked over 100 new ponds in the past several years. I'm not saying this is right or wrong but only a handful ever got the pond permitted properly. The few who have done it right regret it, pain in the rear. I feel your pain and do not know what to tell you to do especially since they now have your name. I just thought I would say you're in the miniority in our state when it comes to permitting smaller ponds.

You might try to apply for the SALT program from the usda. If your watershed qualifies for erosion control or water quailty control for a qualified district they will design, build and possibly even pay you for a pond.Depending on how your watershed is ranked(if you qualify) determines how much they will help w/ construction costs.Anywhere from 50%-100% based on ranking.They built 7 ponds/lakes for my grandfather,paid 100% construction costs and gave him small yearly payments just to maintain them. All because he ranked high on erosion and water quailty issues.

Sometimes a statement is made by someone unauthorized to make it.
Sometimes the meaning of a statement is not clearly articulated.
Is it possible they were refering only to small ponds they build for free?

When dealing with government workers I have several times gotten satisfaction by going up the ladder. I would ask someone senior to the one making that statement.

Ric,
I would like to think this is the case, but I have been dealing directly with the district engineer for my area. To go any higher would be in D.C.

Theo,
I would much prefer the smell of real BS, as opposed to the kind I am getting!

I do appreciate the feedback I am getting here. Keep the suggestions coming, and I will keep y'all posted on how this mess goes.

Laws vary from state to state, but you should pursue this through your local ag office. Don't volunteer that you have been spoken to the corp.

In Virginia, you don't necessarily have to have livestock to qualify for the farming exemption. Is your land zoned agricultural? If so you can say you intend to grow hay, want to improve the pasture and have the potential to irrigate in times of drought conditions. Even say that you may at some time have cattle or other livestock on the property.

I am in the process of clearing cutting 60 acres and then developing the raw land in to pasture with two ponds. The soil and water folks want all pine plantations reseeded, but you have the right to clear the land for ag uses. Once that was out of the way, I had to indicate that I wanted the option to irrigate and may have livestock in the future. Horses will not qualify. I only had to state my intentions, if I never put the land in pasture I may have some issues with these folks concerning erosion, but I don't think they care at this point if the new pasture every has a hay crop or if livestock ever sets hoof on the place.

I would recommend you go back to the local folks to see what support they can give you. Remember, they are there to help farmers, so just pretend a little like it has always been a dream of yours to have a "farmette" or ranch.

Good luck.

I went through the Core process and got my permit, and it is not a farm exemption either....who are you talking with down there?? What is his name?? Where are they located??

Greg,
Jersy is in Walton county..sort of near Social Circle..

On hearing this....I might not should NEVER sale my new lake...It is TRULEY a blessing from the LORD that I got this permit form the CORE...
Thank you LORD....thank you

I agree with John B.

If your land has agricultural potential then for all intesive purposes the government agents should treat it as a farm...

If they are valuing it as "farmland", then they should let you improve it as "farmland".

Its ironic that the Corps in your area apparently wants to maintain run-off. Is there a white water rafting river or something downstream from you?

In many areas of the country you would expect that the Corps would be happy to have private ponds added to the watersheds as they would reduce erosion and flooding problems.

I think the Corps, like any government agency probably gets pulled in a lot of different directions: For example: Less erosion might improve water quality, but reduced erosion upstream might cause places like the Mississippi Delta to disapear under seawater...

Keep trying!

Jersey,
I agree with Edward. Here is a site where you can get a topograghical map.
Microsoft terra server imagry

I went through the local Dept of Soil & Water Conservation. They came out & shot the lines with their lazer ect. Even offered to send an engineer out. All for free (of course actually paid for by our tax dollars)

I think if you had this governmental body behind you giving the thumbs up, they would be hard pressed to say you did something wrong even if it went to court.