Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Building a dam renovating an old pond

We are digging out our small older pond. Have already drained and rented the large equipment for moving earth. Husband is excited about using the big machine and has already started moving earth.I cant help but think "something is very wrong here" Can you suggest a back issue of Pond Boss with step-by-step instructions and maybe even "diagrams" for beginners attempting this kind job?
Accepting any and all advice at this point!!!!
Mrs Toon Town

TuneTown,

Welcome to the Forum. I can't recall a specific issue with "step-by-step" instructions, but maybe someone else will.

I've done two of these pond renovations myself now (the last one just completed) and would be happy to offer any lessons learned. Maybe you could post a little more info on the pond size, the equipment you have available to work with, and your overall plan for the renovation.

One of the most difficult problems in these projects is associated with the "muck", the collection of silt, plant, and other wastes in the bottom of the old pond. Depending on your equipment situation, age of the pond, and the surrounding area, several options exist for dealing with this problem.

Another problem that I encountered, that you may not have, deals with the integrity of the dam, i.e. years of neglect and abuse by animals, trees, weather events, and etc. necessitated considerable dam repair in one of my cases.

If either of these topics are of interest, I would be most happy to elaborate.

One word of caution, renovating an old pond can/will put the equipment operator in some dangerous situations. Safety first is the best advise I can give you and things can get away from you in a hurry is the lesson learned I would point out foremost. Enjoy the project, because it can be a most rewarding undertaking.

Thank you Meadowlark for your quick response.
Here are some particularsthat I know right now; First, "A Plan?" (surely you jest!)I know that we want it deeper and larger, the piece of equipment we rented is called a track loader (rented for 7 days) with a 1&1/2yd bucket.
Some ??'s in particular that I have are; what to do with all this earth that were removing. what is silt, is this silt,is silt good for anything, can I use it in other places on our property ie.,lawn, garden, land fill???
And, angle of attack for the sides of the pond, any do's or definately dont's??
Im not even sure that my husband will adopt any proven expertise ideas but at least we'll know what it was that he did wrong for when we have to do it again!
Thanks again

TT,
Regarding the sides of the pond....be careful that the sides are not overly steep for several reasons. Chief of those is that you want any animals or humans to be able to get out of the pond without drowning. A common mistake that ranchers make only once is to make the sides too steep so that a cow will actually drown because it can't climb back out of the pond. Make a shelf or very gradual dropoff to deep water all around the pond.

The muck or silt or sediment or whatever you want to call it, is the accumulated decay of matter over many years combined with sediments that have been washed into the pond. It can be very difficult to remove because it is almost impossible to get it to dry out to where it can be moved with equipment. With your track loader, and depending on how much muck you have accumulated, you probably will not be able to remove it...if you try, you may very well get the loader stuck, again depending upon how much you have. It will not dry in 7 days, not even 7 weeks sometimes unless worked carefully.

There are a couple of options which do not require removal and which also take care of a couple of your other concerns. By raising the height of the dam, you can achieve a larger and deeper pond without the need to remove the muck. You were wondering what to do with all that dirt, well assuming it is good clay material, use it to raise the height of the dam and get a larger and deeper pond in the process. Don't forget about the back slope on the dam.

Another option for dealing with the muck, which I came up with out of necessity, is to push the muck into the center of the pond to form an island, that will eventually be under water. This submerged island not only is a solution to your muck problem, but also provides much appreciated structure for your fish yet to come. When building this island, contain it with a ring of clay materials by simply digging and pushing the whole thing into a ring, what will be a submerged island. I used this approach in both of my renovated ponds and it works great.

Feel free to ask any questions. Also, I'll ask EWEST, if he reads this to post the link to the summary discussion on pond renovations, from a recent Pond Boss meeting. Good luck and keep us posted please on what happens.

For when we have to do it again? That's how things generally turn out for me.

Like ML says, be real careful. It's not too hard to make a mistake with heavy equipment. That stuff can kill you and never shed a tear.

What to do with the muck? Depends on what it is and how big the pond is. That stuff is not too friendly at removal time. A lot of it will probably be sand that washed in. If you mix it with all of the accumulated muck, it can be spread over existing acreage. If it is all sand, it is pretty useless and can be only used to fill low spots. No matter what it is, it will probably not be good for rasing the height of the dam. That takes good sandy loam.

If you have access to a dozer (he does), ML's idea of building an island works real well. But, you have to have a source of good clay to pack around the debris or it will, over time, flow back to the bottom.

How big is the pond?

Thanks for all the helpful insight and your time in sharing with those who really have no business even attempting to mess with "mother nature"
I have spent much of the evening reading copious posts and finding much helpful advice however, along the way I have developed more sever concerns than before I started this little journey! I have heard it said "A little Knowledge can be a very dangerous thing"
I'll soon have many more questions for the Boss!
Thanks Everyone

"How big is the pond?" you ask; Well,uuh,well.....how would a girl go about measuring the size of her pond anyway?? And let me add, we have successfully drained the old pond so nows probably a good time to get this straightened out!!
And you ask how big is the pond going to be??
This pond will probably be whatever size it ends up being! As we boldly but blindly hack our way through this wonderful life of country living:)
Lots more ??'S coming, I'm working on a list!
Sorry if if joke, but I do understand this is an important project and we want to get it right so again thanks for any advice.

TT,

Fire away with your list of questions. One of the great things about this Forum is that most everything you may run into, someone has experienced it before and learned from it.

Size of your pond now and in the future. If you don't have access to a long tape measure...one of those 300 foot jobs...then measure your walking step and walk the perimeter of the old pond counting your steps as you go. Give us the approximate geo shape, i.e. retangular, square, triangle, circle, and I'll compute the number of acres for you. Do the same for the "new" pond.

Also, something else, another "assignment", try to measure the depth of the "muck". Use a stick or board or something to get a rough idea of how much material you are dealing with. It can really surprise you...it can be several feet deep and weigh many many tons...depending on your ponds age and condition. One caution, in performing this assignment, recognize that the "muck" is very much like quick sand, only much worse....once you get in it, it will be very difficult to get out, and we would hate to loose you before we even get started good.

Meadowlark's comments about the muck danger are right on.

Don't wear any shoes that you are not prepared to loose.

When I've had to tread into muck for whatever reasons, sometimes I place a wood pallet down to distribute my weight.

Mr Lark,
What is local watertable and where do I look to find this info for my specific area??
I hope your "on-call" all day today!
Thanks
TT

TT,

I would start with the local NRCS office. The water table varies from area to area and season to season. The water table is generally thought of as the top layer of an aquifer, generally it is not available, because of depth, to supply a pond with water except as a water well. However, there are exceptions. To work with an excavated pond that is tapped into the water table generally requires a drag line or sometimes a trackhoe can work.

My curiousity is at a high level. I'll be checking in and out most of the day.

Mr.Lark,
OK,here's the plan; he wants to supply the pond from the older water well that is located right next to the pond. The well is needing some work also(I'm thinking he wants to make the well deeper ie. reason for wanting to know watertable info)This well's only use is for watering pastures not for drinking.
ps. This is day 3 of the dig and I can no longer see the track loader, but now I have a new mountain on my property:O

C'mon now, give hubby some credit. He's dug for two entire days and he's still in one piece.

What is the composition of the "mountain" that was excavated out of your pond. Is it wet and sloppy, or is it fairly dry.

Ahha, call your local well driller and ask him...he may have even dug the well in the first place. Also, depending on the size of your pond, the well may or may not be effective at filling and/or maintaining water levels. One thing to be aware of is that well water is very low on dissolved oxygen (DO). So to use it in your new pond, you need to add oxygen to it by moving it over surfaces to expose the water to air. Several posts on the Forum discuss various tachniques to achieve that.

Progress must be pretty good.

MS. Town, an acre is 43,560 sq. ft. or 4,840 sq. yds. A football field, 40 yds. by 100 yds., is 4,000 sq. yds. Now, if it was just laid out in a perfect rectangle, life would be simpler.

The best bet is to take a piece of graph peper and draw it out to whatever scale you choose. Then do the math. It will be a rough approximation because nature seldom works like we think. But, it will be close enough.

I like to use the simplified dimensions of an acre at 208' by 208'.

Meadowlark the warning about equipment operator safety in the last paragraph of your Sept 14th post caught my eye. Could you possibly elaborate a bit on the dangers inherent in clearing muck out of an old pond, as compared with excavating a new pond. Are you refering to the possibility of the 'dozer getting bogged down, or are there other unique risk factors that come into play when clearing muck with heavy machinery ?

I ask because it won't be long before my catfish ponds, which double as plankton rearing ponds for my catfish hatchery, will need to be de-silted
to get rid of the accumulated cow manure that is added daily to fertilize the ponds in order to sustain continuous plankton (daphnia) growth.

The ponds were originally dug with a Cat D4D LGP (wide track) 'dozer, and this machine will be joined by my recently acquired D7G LGP 'dozer as soon as the undercarriage on both Cats gets a clean bill of health. Also I was wondering whether one of these two 'dozers is more suited than the other for the specific job of getting muck out of old ponds.

muttley,

A dozer is unlike other equipment that has front and rear tires. When you cross the center mass point on a dozer going forward, it quickly falls forward and down. In muck, especially deep muck, you can very quickly get the front-end buried when it falls over that mass point into soft deep muck. The only time I've been hurt on a dozer was crossing that mass point and being thrown forward into the top of the dozer...a nasty gash in the head was the result. Seat belts are absolutely required.

Slopes can also be tricky. Even though the center-of-gravity is very low on dozers, they can still roll over. When shaving the embankment on a steep slope, you have to really watch it. I'm basically a coward on a dozer and when it feels wrong I stop and try to attack it a different way....or hire a professional operator . However, even if it rolls, as long as you are strapped in everything should be fine.

Both of those models you mentioned should work just fine. I have a Case 450 which is comparable to the D4 I think and the maneuverability of that size machine in a pond is really nice.

As long as you are alert to danger and always place safety ahead of everything else, you should be fine....one nice thing, you can always use the D7 to get the D4 unstuck.

Meadowlark I am truly grateful for the advice on seatbelts. I always wear one when driving my car, but I'll have to admit I never thought to wear one while driving a dozer, given its slow speed. Hearing about your accident has made seatbelt installation a top priority for both my dozers before they next go to work.

Having come pretty close to sinking my D4D in soft mud more than a couple of times, I agree it sure can happen quickly if the operator doesn't get the blade raised fast for a hasty reverse. And climbing up those steep embankments became so unnerving for me that I eventually did take on a trained operator. When it comes time to de-silt my fishponds, I'll probably call him back so I can do my nail-biting from a safe distance.

muttley,

One more tip...that you probably know, but I didn't:

Never pull a dozer, as in getting it unstuck, by the blade. The blade attachment is just a few bolts and will quickly pop causing much expensive damage. I learned that one the hard way. You can pull it from behind or wrap chains around the frame, but never pull from the blade...it's an expensive lesson.

Your caution against attempting to pull a dozer by its blade is one I haven't heard till now, despite my frequent visits to the two most popular Caterpillar discussion forums ( ACMOC and IBdozing), and it is in fact the sort of thing I might have considered if I were standing in knee deep mud and watching my prized D4D getting mired. I know now never to attempt such a pull.

Once again I thank you for pre-empting what would have been a costly mistake.

muttley,

I appreciate your gratitude...I say that in all sincerity, because I tried to post some cautions and need for safety with dozer work to a new person on here some months back and he got all upset saying I was "taking all the fun out of pond building" or words to that effect.

I don't consider splitting my head open fun nor making expensive repairs on a dozer any fun either and offer my comments in hopes my mistakes won't be repeated. It's nice for someone to take those comments in the way they were intended. Thanks.