Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations neighbor problems

Great forum all! I recently bought some property that shares a 4 acre lake with my neighbor who owns the property at the end of the lake, He has lived there 2 years. He is not a friendly person and thinks he owns the whole thing. My wife and kids like to fish occasionally, he really has no interest in fishing. A few weeks ago, we had a run in and he tells me if we keep fishing he'll poison the whole damn lake! Does anyone know of any recourse I have if this happens? I've told the police of this conversation but until this actually happens there's not much they can do. Go figure..... Are there state or federal agents I can contact about this for advice? I'm at a loss on this subject... Any info would be helpfull.

Since the guy can't be reasoned with, I believe I would tell him that I purchased the property and paid a premium for the ability to enjoy my property by fishing it. I believe that any reasonable person would understand that. I would then explain that I was prepared to take legal action to recover my investment/expense in the courts, including legal expenses. I would put this in writing and have it notarized with copies going to potentially interested parties. Talk to a local Real Estate lawyer to find out what kind of case law exists in your state to support or limit your rights to enjoyment of your property. There may be several gov't agencies that you can contact including the NRCS and County Agent. If the lake has any chance of overflowing and affecting any water holes downstream or might cause an environmental problem, the EPA might get interested.

If those don't seem to impress him, guarantee him a world class ass whuppin for every dead fish you find. That kind of personal explanation of the depth of your feeling might just get through to him.

If the lake has any chance of overflowing and affecting any water holes downstream or might cause an environmental problem, the EPA might get interested.

That Boy don't even want the EPA on his back.

Can you afford to offer to purchase his share of the lake?

Right now I am negotiating with my neighbor to buy the part of his property that is in my pond's watershed. Since my pond is totally dependent upon runoff for recharge, I don't want to take the chance of him or a future owner from running cattle in there.

Bass,

Without having been in a situation like yours, I really don't have any concrete answers but here is what I would do. First off, invite him fishing for a day. Stick a copy of PondBoss magazine in his mailbox to try and melt the ice.

If that leads to a dead end, I would review a copy of his deed. Hopefully it will contain wording which would clear up the issue of pond ownership and fishing rights. If it does, perhaps you could approach him and talk over the situation. The Commish also offers another approach, buy his rights.

If he still insists on no fishing and again threatens to poison the pond, assuming your homes are serviced by wells, explain to him that the potential exists that both wells might be contaminated by the poison. The chances of this may be remote but it might give him food for thought.

If diplomacy doesn't work and someday you are greeted with a pond full of belly up fish, your neighbor might just find that the pond "flows" in his direction and its a shame he ended up with a shoreline full of stinking rotting fish.

Like Dave mentioned above, you could contact the authorities and seek legal counsel. Do whatever you can to avoid court. With law enforcement and the courts, you'll need proof. I think in your situation it would be hard to get the proof you need. Sure you'll have a pond full of dead fish and you can say the guy told you he was going to do it but, in court, evidence will be your best weapon.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Russ

Thank you all for the wonderful advice. I never thought of the EPA. I will be checking into this further, He is not a reasonable man and his attitude/personality leads me to believe he would do this no matter what. I pray it does'nt happen but if it does I'll know where to start.And yes there is a few lakes downstream from ours that could possibly be contaminated from over flow so that would be a big issue. thanks again all...

Bass: Others have provided some great advice. My small contribution is that I also live in Illinois and work with the EPA occasionally (I have the regional office number memorized if that means anything) through my work. Not to discourage that route, but I'm not sure that would be very effective in Illinois right now for multiple reasons. First, IEPA seems focused more on fines related to the aftermath vs prevention. Second, I'm not sure how quickly IEPA would jump in on a situation between two property owners like this with no obvious public interest (as in public land, waterways, roads). Third, practically all of the state's agencies are really shorthanded right now. Many of the more knowledgeable staff jumped at the early retirement opportunity a while back. Many of those who didn't wish they did. Frankly, the state's agencies are at the worst I've ever seen. I could post my perceived reasons for this, but probably shouldn't.
I have talked with two law professors at the University of Illinois in Champaign. It is bugging me that I can't remember their names right now, but they were helpful. They also have some good information on the internet. I would search for information related to University of Illinois and property rights.
I would also double check your and his deeds. Your local county clerk's office should have them. I would document like crazy, probably even have someone video tape the pond, and all that.
I would talk with an attorney.
I would try to win him over if possible.
I would explore the possibility of buying his property if you are financially able. If he wouldn't sell to you, explore having a ghost buyer make the transaction (someone else buys it and then sells to you).
Finally, I would hope that the wind blows the fish his way as Russ pointed out. The IDNR poisoned fish in a small private lake surrounded by campers a while back. My office was flooded with complaint calls wanting us to do something about them (fish, property owners, IDNR, and horrible odor). Based upon that situation, it might be safe to say that he won't do that twice if the wind is blowing his way.
Jeff

There are statutes in most states, and certainly within the EPA, that deal with "chemical trespass". These statutes relate to the intentional, accidental or negligent use of pesticides - where same are allowed to enter another person's property, whether or not damage is documented.

Ranger's assessments of IL state agencies notwithstanding, the IDOA would be an appropriate agency to contact should several fish mysteriously turn up floating. The IDOA has the responsibility and authority to investigate any alleged pesticide misuses, including access to area pesticide dealers' sales records.

Here's a link for more info: IDOA Drift Complaints

Keep a written record of any statements, threats or otherwise made by your neighbor & your replies to him.

Written journals are admitable evidence in court & weigh heavily in your favor balanced against his verbal acounts of whatever occured.

I don't think there is very much can be done by any official until a law is broken.

Bass:

I’m not an expert / biologist / chemist or lawyer, but it is my understanding that all of the approved stuff he might use to kill the fish would still leave the water safe for humans.

It would therefore be more of a civil issue as to your loss for value of fish, personal use / enjoyment, and real estate value. Frankly, I really honestly doubt that any governmental or private agency would get very involved in this situation. I think this would be fought out in civil court. That said, here are some links.

University of Illinois

http://www.farmdoc.uiuc.edu/legal/index.html

University of Illinois Extension

http://www.extension.uiuc.edu/pubs.html

Illinois Rural Policy Digest - Recreational Use of Land & Liability Risk (There are two topics on this link’s page that should be of great interest to any property owner who allows others unto their property – especially property owners in Illinois)

http://www.farmdoc.uiuc.edu/policy/

Illinois Department of Agriculture

http://www.agr.state.il.us/Environment/Pesticide/pestuses.html

http://www.ag.state.il.us/environment/envdivision.html

Illinois Environmental Protection Agency

http://www.epa.state.il.us/

Prairie Rivers Network - A private group affiliated with the National Wildlife Federation, which might or might not wish to get involved. This group is very active with water quality issues (from my perspective, to the point of being way overboard – pun intended).

http://www.prairierivers.org/

If the neighbor used non-approved stuff to kill the fish that could leave the area contaminated, that is another story. He could get in bigger trouble IF IT COULD BE SATISFACTORILY PROVEN THAT HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONTAMINATION. That can be a pretty high standard.

Unfortunately and reluctantly, I would suggest some caution to anyone in approaching any “enforcement” type agency (including the prairie rivers network) for assistance. It may be like going to the police complaining that someone stole some of the drugs from your car.

Even though you didn’t cause the contamination, those parties just might want to see it cleaned up. As owner of 4/5th of the contaminated property, it is theoretically possible that you may be held responsible for 4/5th the cleanup cost – which you may or may not recover from your neighbor if successful in civil court. Ludicrous? Yes. Asinine? Yes. Unlikely? Yes. Impossible? No. :-(

Just FWIW (and it may be worth even less than it cost...)

Jeff

Why in heaven's name does he have a problem with you fishing, especially if he doesn't care about it? Does he not accept that you have partial ownership rights in the pond? He needs to understand this, if true. Neighbor feuds are unfortunate - best of luck.

rent/borrow a jet ski.
drive around a couple of hours at wide open throttle while he is home.
wait 'til he bitches again & offer him a choice of quiet fishing or WOT jet skiing

What I like to do is invite a few friends over (some are law enforcement officers) for a little target practice. We're out in the country so it's legal to fire a gun and we are careful to shoot into the appropriate backstop. After laying down a few thousand rounds of ammunition on a Saturday afternoon, its surprising how the conflicts with neighbors seem to diminish.

I have also used the "lay off a few hundred rounds of ammo" method to help deter trespassers/neighbor issues, and I've found it to be quite helpful.

As some of the recent posts have indicated, I agree that showing your neighbor some of the other options that he could be faced with as opposed to fishing may be a reasonable approach (jet skiing, target practice, etc.).

Target practice, jet skis, etc are all good ideas but not nearly as personal as an ass whuppin.

Dave's idea begs to be explored......Bass 4 Life, how isolated is your property?

I am curious to know though, Bass 4 Life; how did you respond to your neighbor when he said those things to you? I feel for your situation having to share the pond with him.

Thanks

Jet ski's would just piss him off more since in his mind he owns the lake( the guy just ain't right) I would love to whoop his ass, but then I would be sued. The lake is 20 feet deep at the legal property line and about 200 feet wide. When he told me what he intended to do, I just said the cops would be on his ass in a heartbeat. Now that I know about other agencies, I'll let him know that they have been informed as well.

Bass,
You might want to consider keeping a half dozen steralized water sample bottles on hand... the kind used for well water testing would work fine.
If you go the the lake some day and find a mass of fish belly up take several water samples, using latex gloves for your own protection as you have no idea what this guy might put in the water.
If there is an inflow to the lake, a creek or stream, I would also try to get a sample of the water coming in to the lake (without tresspassing on his property if it is on his end)to show that the problem did not originate upstream. Testing of the samples (labled carefully) should be able to show what chemicals were used. Around here the EPA and other agencys have 5 working days to respond to complaints and they usually take at least that long.

You still would have an uphill battle to prove he did it but maybe he would be dumb enough to leave the empty containers around or some other evidence you could use along with his statements which would be better if they were made in front of witnesses.
The next move would seem to be his but I would be prepared if he carried thru on his threats. And you wisely noted that if you beat his butt you would probably end up in court for assault and possibly even sued civilly.

Good luck,
Dan

Lot's of good advice, and food for thought. It's too bad you can't choose your neighbors and unfortunately it seems you are saddled with a moron. I would ignore him completely and pretend he does not exist. Enjoy your land and the lake. Take your family fishing whenever you want, you have the right.

He is probably mostly a blowhard and won't follow through with his threats. Ignore him, he will soon grow tired if he doesn't get a rise out of you and will go back to his petty little existence and his obsessive compulsive need to inventory the gravel on his driveway.

Deep down I like DD's thinking and I can tell you that in my part of the country even a lawyer would have already layed a beatin on him. Still a lot of homestead mentality up here, wild west with a northern twist.

You've gotten a lot of common sense advice. Realistically speaking, I would talk to the EPA and others, do the water samples that Dan has suggested (maybe on a weekly basis WITH HIS KNOWLEDGE) then go ahead and enjoy your investment like Wood says. I would also make sure he and the proper authorities understood that I considered this a food source.

The physical violence thing that I seriously recommend stems from my idea that everyone expects someone else to take care of them and that lawyers are there to see that we get justice. Not so. I don't believe we would have near as many ENRON's, Gov't assisted scams, etc. if there was a pretty good bet that victims and voters were going to be lining up outside every perpetrators office with blood in their eye. I know it will rarely happen but if it did we would have more justice and less law.