Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Dressing up the pond?

In September, I had my 1/2 acre pond put in. It is around 12' at the deep end. My banks run at about a 45 degree angle. I have grass around the the top of the bank. I would appreciate any ideas on the following dilema.. I have a good 2' of clay bank still exposed. My grass has come in great around the entire pond. I really don't want to plant grass on the 2' exposed sloping bank, it seems like that would be hard to maintain? Please feel free to email me, and I will forward photos of the pond and you can see what I am trying to dress up. Thanks for any help.

i'd go ahead and plant bermuda this spring.

If I plant grass on the slopes, when I weed eat around the pond won't the grass clipping fly into the pond? If so would that be a bad thing to put into the pond almost every week (Summer time)? Thanks for your input.

Try as you might to prevent it, Backabit, grass will grow on that exposed slope, and you or someone else will be fighting it for decades. From experience, I will tell you that forty five degrees is too steep. Bite the bullet now and change the slope to about twenty or twenty five degrees so that it can be mowed. An excavator would probably do the best job in two or three hours. Or maybe a tractor pulling a flat disc. However you accomplish it, reduce that slope, and you might not be asking Mark about your facial tic, or stutter, or why you have that growing desire to go up on that roof with your rifle.

Plant bermuda next spring. Your pond is small enough you can weedeat it in less than an hour.
If you choose not to plant anything, Mother Nature will do it for you...and you may not like what shows up.
45 degrees is tough to mow with a riding mower, but landscaping companies use push mowers for that small an area, and on steeper slopes they tie a rope on the lawnmower handle and pull it up and down with the rope, while standing atop the levee. Seems weird to me.
The best idea, overall, is to make the slope 3 or 4 to one, making it mowable, and to fill the pond within two feet of the top of the dam.
On the backside slope, if you want to mow, make it 4 to 1.

I disagree with one of the post telling you to chage the grade of your bank. I would either plant grass as Bob says are consider adding stone. I have landscaping stone on the steep banks with some larger rock intermingled and even a few boulders. If I had to do it all over again though I would put plastic under the stone as I do have some pesky weeds coming up through the stone form time to time. However for the most part it looks good and stops erosion.

I know those who use limestone but I personally don't fine limestone very attractive vs. natural stone.

I would plant clover or a game plot and make it a usefull piece of dirt

I really like the idea of natural stone. I have natural stone all through out my landscaping and placing it on my banks would really bring it all together. However, I am wondering how hard it would be to place the stone in now with water already in the pond. I don't think I can just place it on the exposed bank. Wouldn't I have to have the rock from the top of the exposed bank to the bottom of the pond? If so, that sounds like it could be alot, alot, and alot of rock placed in the pond. Right? Not to mention it would might be $$$$$$$. Any ideas on that? Hey, thanks to all who have replied. I appreciate all the advice. Thank you

I vote for the bermuda grass but at a 45 degree angle you are most likely going to have a difficult time with anything. You may end up with cutbank erosion. I would think that if you use rocks you are going to have problems with them tumbling down into the depths. A 12' depth for a 1/2 acre pond is very disproportionate in design because the slope is very dramatic. My calculation is the distance from bank to bottom is only 83 feet and that's with a perfect circle. That's quite a hole. You might want to consider reducing the slope a bit rather than spend a lot of money on rocks. Also, with this depth to area ratio, you will most likely need to aerate the pond because of the stratification that will occur. The statification will cause an oxygen problem in the future and be difficult for the fish. Since you just finished construction late this past summer, see if you can stabilize the bank with bermuda grass first next spring and if this fails you may have to consider reconstructing the bank. Otherwise you will probably be battling erosion problems for years. Maybe rocks will work where you are but down here in Louisiana we don't have rocks so it's really not an option anyway.

Let me discuss the slope degree. It is only at a 45 degree on 1/4 of the pond. The rest of the pond is a very gentle slope, which I have planted grass and it can be easily mowed. I don't have the option of changing the 45 degree, on that side of the pond, about 25 feet away is a deep creek bed. The guys who installed the pond, have been doing it for years, and felt that was the only option on that side. So that side can't be excavated anymore. If I do run into problems with that area, they will come back and fix it. The possibility of erosion was one of my concerns. I want to get something done with that bank to prevent or atleast slow done erosion plus look attractive.

I do have an aerator. I went with the 24' Koenders windmill. Seems to be working great. I have heard good things and bad about windmills. I guess I'll see how it goes. It sure bubbles up good in the pond. I introduced fathead minnows to the pond about a month ago. That is all that is in it at this time. I have structures like pvc pipes, a few stumps, and a roll of farm fence sunk in the pond. I will also sink a couple xmas trees this winter. I want to see how well the windmill does this winter. I have to admit it looks nice.

My trout pond is about as steep as it comes maybe even steeper than 45 degrees. However after my last harvest of trout and draining I found slumping was minimal and what slumping took place was close to the bottom. Probably a lack of slumping due to my soil which has a high clay content.

As far as applying stone. I applied my landscaping stone with a rented bobcat and really did not have much go too far below the water line. It seems to pile on itself and does a minimal amount of sliding. But it is possible if you went with a larger size than the landscaping stone you could have more roll down.

It looks great and even though the pond is only 88 feet long, when we get high winds the stone works great as a rip rap and does not allow the bank to get stirred or undercut. The amount of stone I needed around the entire pond was about $600.00 worth (two loads) and on one side of the pond I have a good four feet of bank covered with it.

Has anyone used the coconut fiber logs for erosion control? Sounds like it would work here. Not sure about cost compared to rock. The logs will eventually decompose also. Draining the pond down a few feet and adding a lip of soil to hold the stones may be an option.
Robert B

Ah, backabit, you are not in nearly as bad a shape as I originally thought. And you even have the aeration thing taken care of. Sounds like a nice pond. And from what others say, the rock might work. I have seen ponds where the 45 degree undermines and turns to vertical but experienced pond builders probably had this in mind and probably made sure you were okay. Another option would be a low-profile bulkhead since it is a limited area, but this may not be the look you are after. And it is relatively expensive too. I all for keeping it simple and as natural looking as possible. You might also consider planting native wetland plants in some of these areas for stabilization and added attraction.

backabit - Let see if I understand your question. You say you have an approx 2 ft high embankment that extends up and back from the water line at a 45 degree angle around 1/4 of your pond. I assume the ground levels off at that point where the new grass line is. Grass does not grow on this embankment slope because you did not sow grass there. I also assume the embankment was built to keep the creek floods out of the pond.

1. Why not plant grass there and just not mow it? It will only get about 8" to 12" high with the seed stems reaching 20" to 28" high. At least that's how my fescue behaves. I do not see this as a unsightly problem in such a small area. Grass in "seed" looks pretty cool. I do not mow most of the grass around my pond all summer. The unmowed grass gets mowed once a year (usu early spring) to keep the trees down. I try and spray the broadleaf weeds to keep them to a minimum.

Consider planting bluegrass, it gets a maximum of abt 12"-14" high (including seed heads)and maybe some new varieties of fescue have shorter seed stems than 24"-30". Dense, thick, unmowed grass once established will eliminate all soil erosion on your slope. The problem will be getting good thick grass cover estabalished on a steep slope with poorer soils.

2. Three leaf clover like that in your many Indiana yards stays real short and also would be a good alternative. Not sure where you buy that 3leaf clover seed; most homeowners try and kill it in their lawns.

Grass can be a scruffy swine at the water margin, Bermuda grass makes long scrawny tresses that extend across the water surface some six feet or so, spoiling the appearance of a pond, taking some ingenious weeding to keep from spoiling a pond... If there is a choice I'd find some fine short grass variety to seed along a sizable pond and try to rip out bermuda grass...

There are quite a few aquatic plants which can be used to naturalise a water margin, which can cope with naturalising and a grassy margin.

Aquatic iris, canna, pampas grass, pickerel, arrow arum, lizards tail, arrowhead, royal fern, among others which will contribute more to good looks and improve the habitat of the pond considerably rather than invasive grasses of poor soils...

There are quite a few evergreen trees and shrubs with low growing or layered habits which will thrive beside a pond, going some way to reducing wind blown leaves through Winter and contributing toward grass and weed suppression.

A barrier of evergreens, astilbes and shuttlecock fern along a tricky bank will turn it from a weedy eyesore to something with all year round interest...

Ponds don't have to be like those barren 'high maintenance' holes as found on many golf courses.

Regards, andy
http://community.webshots.com/user/adavisus

i can't imagine bermuda grass crawling out six feet over water. i think bermuda works great for preventing erosion. i personally would use it. ANDREW, i noticed in your profile that you are a water garden photographer. could you please send me a picture of some bermuda you've seen extending six feet out over water ? thanks. i definately would not rip out bermuda unless it is near a person's flower beds. mark

I don't photograph weeds, but I have bermuda grass types here and they merrily spread across the water surface at the rate of three to six feet a month in Summer

Horrible stuff beside a pond. Yes, I will take a shot of grass spreading on the pond surface, I have roll of film I'd like to get finished. I use kodachrome so it will be at least a week before the slides come back (It's the best archive film available, good for a high res 30 meg file, fine grain film)

Check out the phrase 'bermuda grass' in a search engine and the words invasive, creeping growing habit will be on every page of entries.

here's one reference to bermuda grass, a bit of a giggle....
http://www.livejournal.com/users/shadoe/1590.html

Here's another one, perhaps a little more serious
http://pi.cdfa.ca.gov/weedinfo/CYNODON2.html

Regards, andy
http://community.webshots.com/user/adavisus

Thank you all for your great knowledge. Andrew I really enjoyed you web site. I would like to plant something in the water for the fishies. Can you recommend a nice lily plant that is beautiful that fish like and WILL NOT spread like a wildflower. I am making a beach area for the pond so friends and family have a nice place to swim and soak up some rays, and I don't want to plant anything that will take over the pond. I also was wondering if planting water plants would be inviting to snakes? The pond is located pretty close to woods and I may have that problem anyway. Also, if I would go with a lily plant, is there a certain depth the water should be? Thanks to all of you for your great help.....

Hi Backabit

The 'invasive' lily types to avoid are the nuphars, native lotus (which have tunneling rhisomes) and native lilies which drop a lot of fertile seed, eg odoratas or alba's

Any medium to large variety of hybrid waterlily can do well on a large natural pond planted at 2' to 3' deep (easy to paddle depth) these tend to grow at a steady rate, maybe two feet a year and are quite easy to 'thin out' when waters are warm for a paddle. Hybrid varieties rarely drop viable seed....

There's a photo in the web shots gallery folder 'Pond life' indicating a hybrid varieties growing habit:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/99477855/97297215IttXdj

Snakes are sensitive wee creatures, preferring very thick cover, an easy snack for many critters when they venture into the open, if there are a few mature painted turtles or bullfrogs about, few baby snakes ever grow to be parents on that pond...

Regards, andy
http://community.webshots.com/user/adavisus

I was thinking something along the same line for my pond and looked at www.seedland.com and looked at the diferent grass seeds. It looks like several varieties will only grow up to a few inches if not mowed. I know bahia, my native grass will only grow about six inches plus the stalkes will add another foot. Why worry about it? Plant a grass that will provide good cover and never bother with mowing. I'm not.

Good Luck,
Eddie

andy, i still have to stick with my thoughts that for soild erosion in areas where spillways etc are, bermuda is great.. has worked for me, and i want soil retention, and i want that dang bermuda grass to cover every little bit it can around the pond to prevent erosion. but thanks for the info.

Your web site pics are absolutely amazing, beautiful pics. you have a real gift, those are amazing. i showed my nurses a few of the pics and they were very impressed. keep up the good job, and those of you who haven't seen the pics, click on his website listed above in his post. mark

surprised nobody mentioned buffalo grass, it grows bout 6" then lays over. i would put some softball size or so , rocks at water line to protect from any wave action. after i dug pond i made big hill for sledding, 4 wheeling and dirt bikes , i spread some topsoil on top and sides and planted buffalo grass and perennial wild flowers on the sides , looks nice, do little weeding start of summer , done.

Backabit, I think that your forty-five degree slope is fine, but only below the waterline. My advice was for the EXPOSED portion of the slope to be changed to twenty or twenty five degrees - just the part that is exposed to air.