Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Poachers/ tresspassers

Whats the deal with people tresspassing and keeping fish. Don't they realize is nothing but pure theft?????

Here in Bama their likely to find themselves shot!

That is a big problem where I am from. Alot of ponds are way off the road and can't be watched very closly. That is what I think happened to my pond, suddenly having the fishing go bad and not even seeing the nice ones I used to.

Yea Jawbone, when I read your post about shocking the first thing that came to mind was "poachers".
I have a 2 acre pond that is 30 years old. No one in my family has ever taken any fish outa there but the fishing is still pretty slow and I know it's people sneaking in and taking out the fish. The problem comes and goes in cycles. I've caught and released bass to 8 lbs 10 years ago but now it's hard to catch a fish over 4 lbs. These theives don't understand how much work and time it takes to make a good fishing pond. They come in and take out 10 to 15 good fish per trip and it doesn't take long to completly screw up the pond. The 3 to 5 lbers they take out get replaced with lot's of small bass, then the whole lake goes out of balance. I've tried the nice approach, like telling people they can fish but throw everything back but they still screw you.
No more mister nice guy. When the water drops a little more I'm going to put some long stre tches of chicken wire out in the lake so I can at least get some free lures out of the deal. What is really sad is there are lot's of big public lakes around this area and catching plenty of crappie or sand bass to eat is a no brainer.

Fellas:

Here at Pond Boss, we try to make-nice with just about everybody. But a poacher is a thief and a trespasser.

We suggest you contact local authorities. Fact: Most poachers are your jealous neighbors. Sad but true. When word gets around that you will prosecute, you might have a retaliatory incident of vandalism, but it will be islotated and your poaching problem goes away.

Here in Tejas, trespassers get treated like the lawless thugs they are.

Mark McDonald
Editor

Here in MS. we just call the game wardens. You don't even have to warn those poachers. The game warden then calls the sherriffs office, which they then arrest the individuals and haul them off to jail. I think it is a $500 fine, and they get to spend the day in the pokey. When word gets out that someone got arrested, that definetly puts a stop to it.

How about using a "game" camera to photo the thieves in action? Use it to spot the bucks and the schmucks! Hide it well and disable the flash if it has one - it would further the agony to miss the camera too...

Dob

Here's a story for you all. I grew up in Natchez, Ms. were the soil in the area is Loess Bluff soil. It washes really badly and creates these huge bayous or canyons by sloughing off vertically. So, many soil conversation works where completed in the 60's by the Corp of Eng. The result was a number of good size private lakes. A buddy of mine has an older brother (Mickey) who made it big in the oil services industry, which allowed him to buy an 800 acres parcel with one of these soil conservation lakes on it. It's a great lake, approx 50 surface acres, depths to 30 ft., a big 6ft x 6ft concrete overflow pipe and one damn big dam. The lake snakes back into the property (all hardwoods); but, unfortunately the dam is adjacent to a county road. It does have a chain link fence, but you can still cut through the woods and sneak in on the back of the property.

Anyway, when Mickey bought the place he decided to make it a trophy bass lake. He hired a Professor from Auburn U. to shock/survey the lake. As a result, Mickey started a significant stocking program of 8in bass, bass fingerlings, adult coppernoses, bluegill fingerlings, and threadfin shad. The first year (1995), I recall him stocking 25,000 2in bluegills. Anyway, the point is Mickey has a huge investment in this project. In the summer 2002, an 11lb 7oz sow is the biggest fish caught and released.

Unfortunely, the previous owner was not a fisherman and all sorts of folks had access or invited themselves. Mickey has been fighting to keep people off the place ever since he bought it. The place has several oil wells therefore different operating companies have keys to the gate. He even caught one guy dumping crappie in the lake.

Like I said, I'm his brother friend and Tommy lives close by this lake. So one day, we where sipping whisky drinks at the deck by the boat launch when two democrats with cane poles and 5 gallon plastic buckets came down the power line on the other side of the lake looking to catch a mess of big bluegills and catfish. So Tommy (cursing loudly) jumps up and grabs his 30.06 out of the truck intending to use the scope to see if he knows them so he can call the game warden. When Tommy shoulders his rifle, they stop dead in their tracks, drop their poles and buckets, and took off like OJ in the airport. That was five years ago but people are still trying to sneak in and steal fish.

So, Mickey has hired a gamekeeper to manage this property and another 1,300 acres near by. People are always trying to use his place like it was their own. Of course, I can understand wanting to use the place, as I was able to enjoy the fishing and hunting, but I was in the circle and worked the 3 to 4 workdays every year, moving stands, planting food plots, fertlizing the lake etc.

Just a story. I really enjoyed recalling it as I've left Natchez and now live in Maine to far to be involved except by chats on the phone.

Perhaps you could buy one of those cheap motion lights that charges a battery with a small solar cell. But the camera sound like a good idea also. Or perhaps hook up a horn to a motion detector. Or put up a couple of cheap tents so people would think the area was being used.

John

Although we all despise trespassers and other thieves, be careful about "self help" or the legendary "citizens arrest". I read a story about some King Ranch cowboys catching some deer poachers, throwing down on them, taking their guns, and marching them to the game warden. Given the size of the legendary King Ranch, I expect it was a long walk. In the end, the poachers sued the King Ranch and won. In Texas, only a licensed Peace Officer has the right to detain someone against their will. I have discussed the matter with my local Game Warden who told me to call him if I had any trespassers. I expect they would be gone before he got there. Of course, theres also the case where one of my brothers friends in South Dakota found a poachers pickup on his land. The pickup must have an electrical problem because it somehow caught on fire. The landowner called the law and claimed that the poachers pickup had caught on fire and destroyed some of his pasture land.

The TP&W has some great no hunting signs available through "Operation Game Thief". I believe they cost about $11.00 per sign. They are expensive but nothing like helping to support the guys who will be looking into your problem for you. The sign states the fines for poaching on them also. Can't say "They didn't know" if it's on a sign in front of them.
What about getting a fishery liscense?
This increases the fines and your claim as well.
Also, I carry a camera with me just in case so I can take the photo of the poacher in the act from a distance and place the camera in the truck. Then ask them off the place. Wonder if the law would keep a file on evidence like this even if you did not want to press charges just in case there is retalliation?

If you catch the poacher red handed, one idea is to make them drop their wallets and then leave. That way, without confrontation, you have their name, address, etc. to turn into the game warden. If no wallet, make them leave their tackle and equipment - course a 20 gauge hanging in the back window of your truck helps convince them they best leave behind what you request. I caught two guys fishing my lake (one actually was in the water in a little wader boat)- I ran them off and next night my front gate lights etc. were torn out and ruined. Mark is right - if you catch them watch closely for retaliation.

Now this is a topic I have thought about often but never talked to anyone about. I even considered constantine(sp) wire to a friend once that was having a similar problem. His place is so beautiful that it would make it look like some kind of experimental station. I suggested to him that he just put up a chain link fence in green with signs at the gates saying that it was in fact some kind of experimental lake and toxins were present,etc. I probably think about this stuff way too much.

Hey guys,

Finally a subject I know something about. My knowledge in this subject is extensive, as I have been a police officer here in the great state of Texas for the past 14 years.

Now as to these criminals and how to deal with them. There were several postings with some good information and I'd like to add to them. First law enforcement does keep records of trespassers. What I would suggest is to call your local Police, Sheriff or Warden as soon as you see subjects on your land. When the officer arrives ask them to issue a trespass warning to these scum. The department should keep the document in their computer and if they return they go directly to jail (NO questions asked!!).

What about Retaliation? If they have been identified by the police and given a trespass warning, chances are they will not return to damage your property. Yes, In my career I have come across a lot of dumb criminals, so it could happen, but the police have a good place to start looking if it does. Retaliation is a felony in our great state and it is frowned upon with most of the judges I have come across (No probation here).

Another thing I would like to point out is the fact that if the trespasser is found in possession of your fish that is THEFT! It is up to the land owner to attach a dollar figure to those fish, as this determines what the criminal is charged with. To give an example, if you are caught by the game warden in public waters with under sized fish they attach a "re-stocking fee" to your already high fine. This fee is sometimes as high as $ 100.00 per fish, so when the officer asks how much the fish are worth use that formula. A trespasser with five fish may be looking a some jail time before this incident is all over with.

One more thing I would like to point out is please don't approach these people alone. There are some really crazy idiots out there and I wouldn't want anyone hurt by what I have posted. Call the police and have them do it unless you have no other choice. Once you get the word out that you will file on these leeches they will steer clear of your property.

Hope this helps!!
Newbee

Hey guys,

I meant to say this in my last post, but if any of you have any questions concerning trespassering laws or what constitutes theft, please don't hesitate to give me a shout. I'd be proud to help you in any way I can.

newbee

:rolleyes: Well here is somthing I am running into I have one pond (9 acres) on a 31 acre tract of land it is 120 miles from my house.. I am thinking of buying yet another tract of land with about a 8 to 9 acre pond on it but this time it is about 30 miles from the house and it is in a neighborhood with a school right up the road and houses all around, not my neighborhood. I the pond is drained as of now because the owner is afraid of being liable for what happens to some one who play around the pond, "some one might drown, or get hurt!" He does not want to get sued!! What do I do? Chain linked fence? no tresspassing signs? I want to get some sort of liability insurance for the place if I buy it..

I remember in College Business law about why people have to fence their swimming pools. It's called the "Attractive Nuisance Law". I have a rider on my homeowners policy to protect me agaonst trespassers being injured on my place that is 70 miles from my home.

The reason I bought it: I heard a story (unconfirmed)about a Local City Council member that owned a large ranch overlooking the city limits of Fort Worth Texas. To promote the city, he agreed to let a camera crew and a model take pictures on his property with Fort Worth in the background. I assume the pollution was low that day. Some guy came along on a horse and the camera crew decided to let the model sit on the horse for a couple of pictures. The model somehow exited the back of the horse and landed on her face. She sued the landowner because her number one asset was damaged. He claimed that he had no idea who the guy on the horse was. He had no insurance and got hit pretty heavily.

The rider on my homeowners policy doesn't cost much. It is worth checking into.

Alright, this is starting to get into Civil Law, which is out of my field of expertise. I spoke with my attorney brother and got some clarification on the subject.

In the world we live in you could be sued for just about anything! I just read that McDonald's is being sued for making people fat, if you can believe that? Now, having said this, having an issurance policy on your property is of course a good idea and highly recommended. My brother suggested that you show some type of device (ie. signs, fenceing) that make it apparent that trespassing is not permitted. Also showing that you have in the past issued trespass warnings to subjects or have filed trespassing charges, lessons your liablity to law suits.

Just having a pond does not automatically make you liable for bodily injury/death that occurs on your property. The fact that you ignore trespassers and let people come and go as they please does make you libale. I'll give you a real example. A local company aquired a large parcel of land that had a large lake on it. The local kids called it the "blue hole" and they went there almost every weekend, swimming and fishing.

The company knew of this trespassing, but didn't do anthing about it, thus in affect granting them permission to be there. The kids attached a rope to one of the trees close to the bank and would swing out into the water. The company knew of the swing, but did not remove it, nor did they contact the authorities when the kids were sighted. The employees would actually wave at the kids as they drove by. This was where their liablity came into effect.

One of the children swingging out into the lake fell from the tree and was paralyzed from the waist down. The childs parents sued and won a sizable judgement. Now you know and I know that the kids should not have been on the property, but the jury found that the company should not have permitted them to be there. The killer for the company was the fact that there was a fence that surrounded the property and a gate, but the gate was always left open. By the emloyees ignoring the childrens presense, they placed the company in a position of liablity.

I am not tying to scare anyone that owns a pond, but it is something that all of us need to think about. If you let people come and go as they please, you are opening yourself up to a law suit. The sad thing about it is when I was a young boy, one of our neighbors had a large lake that I loved to fish and swim in. As a matter of fact some of my fondest childhood memories were made on the banks of that lake, but the world has changed and people are sueing resturants for being fat, for gods sake!!! It is therefore recommended that we protect ourselves.

I would like to point out that I am not an attorney nor do i want to be. I'm just passing on infromation. Hope this helps!!!

Newbee

Not sure of the judicial/legal differences between Canada and the US, but here I believe trepass is implied. By that I mean that if there are no signs or such you cannot just go onto property under the false assumption that you are not trespassing. (There has been a fair amount of discussion on this topic here based primarily on hunting rules). By this I mean that if you have signs of any nature, (including the recognized symbol of the red circle), then trespass charges can be laid upon anyone entering the property without permission and without need for warning. However if you do not have signs you are unfortunately legally obligated to warn them to leave at least once before anything can be done. (this is for people not hunting.. hunters can be in deep trouble regardless of signage). I think the safest thing is indeed to get some insurance and post no trespass signs. I mean even if we are 100% in the clear the insurance will really help if someone does try to sue regardless of their chance of victory. It really is a shame that a judge way back when set the precendent for suing someone for injuries sustained on private property when they were there without permission. My worst tresspassers are surveyors for the Ministry of Transportation trying to get apiece of my land and my convicetd felon neighbour. (Yep... my country neighbours aren't what they used to be).

Well, Pottsy I think you are right. I have actually heard of criminals sueing homeowners for being injured while they were burgalrizing there homes. The world is a crazy place and all we can do is live in it.

I forgot to mention to my fellow Texans that there is a way of posting your property without the use of signs. It is a little strange, but some law maker has made it a law so we can utilize it. How do you post your property without signs? Purple paint!!! Yes purple paint! The law reads as follows, The placement of purple paint on trees or posts on the property, provided the marks are: vertical lines of no less then eight inches in length and one inch in width. Placed so that the bottom of the mark is no less than three feet from the ground or no more then five feet from the ground. Placed at locations that are readily visible to any person approaching the property, 100 feet apart on forest land and 1,000 feet apart on all other lands.

I know, I don't write the laws I just enforce them. This will, however save you some money on signs if you have a whole lot of land to post. Hope this helps!

Newbee

Newbee, according to local law inforement officials in my county there are two types of trespassing. One is trespassing, the second is criminal trespassing which occurs after a person has been warned not to trespass.

BMorris

Bill,

I am no sure what you have been told, but trespassing is trespassing. The general rule is that officer be able to prove that the trespasser knowingly entered the property without permission (ie. posted signs, purple paint or had been warned in the past). There is no difference between criminal trespassing and trespassing. Now the Texas Penal Code does provide for different types of Trespassing and I assume this is what the person you were speaking with was referring to. This includes, Trespassing with a firearm and Trespassing in someones residence (there without the intent to steal). These offense carry a class A misdemeanor charge instead of the standard class B.

There are other avenues of prosecution that pond owners could take if the criminal was stealing fish or hunting on your property. This would fall into the Parks and wildlife code. The taking or attempting to take game without the land owners consent. Speak with your local game warden as to application of this law.

Hope this helps to clarify things for you.

Newbee

Adding to Pottsy's knowledge and statement, I am involved with criminals and "Corrections" in Canada. Once upon a time a criminal tried to escape from a second floor window (JAIL BREAK) and fell braking his back as a "very dangerous offender" to society. The result, he gets a monthly disability payment from the government until death. CASH FOR LIFE LEGALLY!!!!!
Just food for thought........

Rowly

I also took a business law class in college and we were told in the U.S. it didn't matter what you did -- in the case of a swimming pool you could still get your butt sued -- if some kid drowned in your pool after trespassing. I assume ponds are the same.

We're talking no trespassing signs, fences, you name it and STILL you can get sued. Doesn't seem right to me, but that is what we were told.

However, I have three ponds on my property where I live near some residences, and I will not let that stop me from pursuing my dream of supplying fish http://www.ligtel.com/~jjbaird/bairdfish2.htm

If we all worry about what could happen we wouldn't do anything.

As far as trespassing, I have never had that happen (can't see the ponds from the road), but if it happens I will be nice the first time and mean as hell the second and have them arrested.

Cecil,

It is true that you could be sued for just about anything. The point I was trying to make was there are steps that pond owners can take that will lesson your liablity to law suits.

I too believe that if we worry about what could happen we would not do anything, thus never attaining our goals and dreams. I try not to live my life worrying about the unknown, but it would be foolish not to take precautions.

The world we live in never ceases to amaze me. Just to think that the country we live in would allow people to be sued for the misconduct of another, on your property no less, makes me want to puke!

Sorry, I'm not a very tolerable person sometimes (LOL) :p .

Newbee