Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Help Dead Bream, Aerator and Water Chemistry

If I did this right, hopefully the pictures will show. Someone wanted to see pictures of the baby bream. It is a little more than an inch long.

I was told to put hydrated lime in initially and was sold some at the hatchery. However, after reading the various DNR sites and the forum here, I got cold feet about using it and went with ag lime. I gotta bag of hydrated lime here cheap if anyone interested. Sorry I don't have any big hogs, but I have a heap of nut stealers, you are all welcome to come help yourselves.

At least my post has helped people be aware of alternative views. I wish I had gotten more alternatives views before we started the pond. I wasn't aware of Pond Boss then.

O.K so maybe we have to much ammonia or bloom. Would hay or additional lime help, or make it worse? Should we try to remove some of the fish? If so the spawn or the the bigger fish? Is their a chemical that can be added? Should we reduce or quit feeding? Should we get all the fish out and start over? Should we just let nature run it's course?

Mr. Holyoak, thank you for the apology, I felt you were more interested in selling an aerator at the time, than anything else. That's why I went to these guy's to get their opinions. I've seen the vast knowledge and help they have given many others on this forum. Even when sometimes they have differing opinions, it is always good information and only given because they care.
Thank you all again for the help.
Lewis and Laurelee

laurelew

Pictures didn't show up, but I put the URL into IE and got the pictures, great quality on the fish pic! If you want to edit your post simply copy the URL of the picture then click IMAGE under Instant UBB Code, which is directly under where you type the message in. From there, you get a pop-up where you can paste the URL you copied earlier. It enters all the code for you. Do this once for each picture.

Another tip to use: Before posting or replying when trying to add a picture click the "Preview Post" button next to "Add Reply" or "Add New Topic." This will let you see if your images work prior to posting.

Hope this helps.

Looks like you got to it before me Good work!

P.S. Ken check your private messages, I sent you an address for a free catalog.

L&L just saw your pictures, what your water source, well, rainfall, other??

The pond is maintained by rainfall, though if we don't get some rain soon, we may add some well water. Read the link on how to build the venturi aerator for well water on here, and will make that prior to adding any water. I know losing 26 fish may not be sigificant for a large pond, but is it just a part of life for my size? Mr. Shrader thanks for help on posting pics.
Laurelee and Lewis

C'mon Bill, Bob and Cecil. Let's hear it! That picture looks like it's got a LOT of redear in it, doesn't it? Maybe a BG/RES hybrid? I think the Georgia Giant has at least a little redear in it for sure.

Theo? Whaddaya think? What do L and L have in this picture?

Ewest?, Anybody?

Bruce :

That fish looks abnormal to me. I have seen a whole lot of small sunfish up close and for long periods in ponds , hatcheries and in aquariums. I even looked online for additional pics. of juvenile sunfish and could not find any that looked remotely like the pic. I guess it is mostly BG based on coloration . I don't want to start a problem and don't profess to be an expert on juvenile sunfish ID but the fish looks genetically deformed. To the non fisheries scientist eye the sum of the parts do not match. I had hoped one of you would go first before I went way out on a limb. How is this for starting a dicussion. ewest

Little, tiny red margin on ear tab.

GIGANTIC eyes!

Doesn't look right.

Bruce :

I can see a little tan color on gill flap , the mouth does not fit the fish , the eyes are to big and are bulging and the head is way out of proportion. Can't see the fins well but they look out of place but that may be an illusion because of the head. ewest

O.K so now not only are my first stocking dying, but we are raising monsters, that may take over the world. It was an ity-bity fish. About 1 inch long, don't all babies look a bit out of proportion. Got a couple more pics of the fellow if you want to see them, he probably gave his life for them.

Mr. Holyoak,
I do take exception to this part of your post after reading it again:

"As for the fish kill itself, absolutely nobody on this forum or otherwise (including myself) could give you an exact answer without #1 testing your water and #2 actually looking at a sample."

It cost me twelve bucks to UPS the water to you.

Had you actually tested it when I called you?

I think I need a hog hunt.

The numbers would have gave me an idea on research (on this site and others)to verify your recommendations; I asked twice, and was just told they were low. The swimming pool lady gives me more information. I am new to having a pond but have been doing my best to see what the overall agreement is on things.

My purchase of a bottom diffuser, we looked at alot from different sites, DNR, here and others. The overall opinion seemed to be that it will prevent turnover and supply oxygen for the processes on the bottom to occur to eliminate the waste.

I'm still willing to be persuaded that a surface one may be better. Just don't want it sold to me with no data about my water, so I can make an informed decision.

Your fish are tasty and have grown fast. As far as reverting, it is a one year pond and we are newbies. But some are now saying the spawn are a freak of nature. I am sleeping with the shotgun tonight.

Laurelee and myself are sitting here. Re-reading all the post. Please, just look at my questions before we posted the pics, any help will be much appreciated.
Thank you all,
Laurelee and Lewis

L L.
I'm not an expert on fish. Can't help much there. But, I do believe your estimate of 1/4 acre pond size is inaccurate. After seeing your pics of the pond, i would say it is closer to a tenth than a 1/4.
With that said, would any of the experts like to take a stab at stocking rates for a tenth acre pond? #'s stocked seem a little high to me,but with aeration and pellet feeding might work?
Could the bread being fed, if in too large of an amount, cause water quality issue that could lead to a kill?

LL, sorry I stole the post with the Ken deal. I will creat another thread and apologize there as well. I also think if you can see most of the pond in the picture it is not 1/4 acre. In this case you may have put in a few too many. However this matter little after reproduciton occurs.

I do not think you want to hear this but I would not lose sleep if only that amount of lose and your visibility is increasing. I would continue with other routines. Fed maybe a smaller amount of fed until it cools a bit. Do not fertilize for sure. I doubt hay will do anything excpet possibly lower oxygen when it decomposes. You are correct in putting in diffuser instead of surfae aerator. Also for that size pond I would not put more than 20 lbs of hydrated lime at a time. However I suggest more ag lime than you put before more like a 1,000 lbs. would not hurt anything. Good luck!

Bruce all my Georgia giants large and small have normal sized eyes, something does look wrong with that fish. Georgia Giants haveing some Redear in the mix was suggested by Cecil a couple years ago, but if a remember he was just posting what he had heard from someone. Bob Lusk will tell you Ga giants is just a marketing name and they are the standard hybrid cross.

I will look for the red ear flap this weekend

For whats its worth Ken never pressured me to buy anything and I was a newbie when we first talked. They sent me the catalog and I never got a sales call. Ken has allways been helpful when ever I have called with questions. If I was starting over would I stock Ga giants again? Yes.

To my eye and ltd experience brain, the small fingerling looks stunted. That eye is HUGE wrt the body size; in fact the whole head looks oversized for the body.

Bruce, I cannot see an edge to the opercule, but that does not rule it out it's presence (right now I'm looking at it from work on a monitor with a serious electron beam convergence problem). If it is only about an inch long, it is small in my experience to have the opercule dark already unless it is old for it's size and therefore stunted (based on currently one year of watching small BG/RES fingerlings in a watering trough/small aquarium).

Could the "spawn" that this is representative of be less agressive/successful stockers that have failed to thrive?

L&L, please forgive the shear speculation (from myself and others), but our ulterior motive for trying to help out is wanting to learn more ourselves.

Hey Wilkersons, Ken here! You are right in saying you have a "monster" there. What it appears to be (from the picture alone) is a warmouth perch (also known as a goggle-eye perch). These are wild fish that grow in rivers and streams throughout South Georgia. Most likely you had some eggs transported on the foot of a bird and dropped into your pond. The Georgia Giant DOES NOT have this fish anywhere in its bloodline. Again I want to apologize if you have ever felt wronged or pressured. I would like to take a look at your water quality (mainly ammonia). We do this test free as you know, and you are welcome to speak with my office biologist, Debra, if you are wary of me when the results are in. She is extremely knowledgeable about these things, she is polite, and is not a "salesman". In fact, I will ask her to call you this morning and give you our UPS number so you will not be out anymore money.
Please do not put large quantities of hay in that pond as the decomposition will raise ammonia readings. We also don't recomend using large quantites of lime at any given time (especially if unsure of exact acreage). When you raise the pH levels in the pond by more than .5 per week, you run the risk of stressing the fish potentially killing them (especially during these crazy summer months). The state guys and I agree to differ when it comes to alot of things, but we all want to see you have a successful pond. As for the diffuser mentioned, we have had past experience both on the farm and with customers using both these units and sump pumps. They mainly circulate water in the pond, so if the water is in bad shape already... I guess it would be like us taking a swim in a large toilet (not too crude of an analogy I hope). I recommended our aerator first of all because it is ours, but mainly because of the ability it has to draw water out of the pond. With a 1/2 horsepower motor, the Aquarius will circulate 1/2 million gallons of water per 24 hour period, draw this circulating water from 4 foot deep, then throw it into the air where free oxygen radicals are brought back into the pond. I also spent a lot of money and time developing the propellar that chops the water so hard it aids in removing ammonia particles as well as other noxious gases (boy I do sound like a salesman). But in order to be a businessman you have to be an honest salesman, and in order to be an honest salesman you have to believe in what you are selling. I do. It is true that I have spent millions of dollars over the past 40 years to better this industry. But as I said before I still learn something new everyday (sometimes two new things a day )Also when I mentioned the water test and sample earlier, I was referring to a fish sample. Sorry I did not make that clear. I spent the evening reading over Mr. Grimes website, and it appears he does have knowledge in the field. I respect his views, but do not agree with all of them.
Back to the Wilkerson's, can we have another chance to make things right?

Hey Forum! This is Debra with Ken's Hatchery speaking to you all. I just pulled a copy of Mr. Wilkerson's test dated 09/15/05 (and mailed to him 09/16/05). My best educated guess is oxygen deprivation, but I can not say for sure because we were not on-site to test for dissolved oxygen. As you all know oxygen can not be accurately tested from a sample that UPS has thrown and tossed around for a day or so. I am going to give you all his results so that maybe we can all put our heads together to help him out.

pH 7.0 (ok)
Hardness 17 (much lower than we like)
Alkalinity 34 (much lower than we like)
Ammonia .24 parts per million (safe)

My suggestions here would be an aerator that not only circulates the water, but also draws in free radical oxygen from the atmosphere (saturating the water if possible {would not hurt at all to have 6-8 parts per million}). I would also recommend raising water overall water quality by adding calcium and bufferin. We have found these two products work best in our ponds, and most of our customers ponds as well. True sometimes these products are absorbed by deficient soil, but 99% of the time we have success. Just adding the calcium improves fish growth (little buggers just don't produce by themselves much, do they?), and the bufferin will help with the overall "stress levels" in the pond resulting in better health and an overall increase in the carrying capacity. Ammonia levels looked great. I make these suggestions as recommendations only, as nothing on Mr. Wilkerson's test would result in direct fish death. As far as his phytoplankton or algae bloom, that is something we commonly see this time of the year with these humid "dog days of summer". Mr. Greg was correct when he suggested this as a potential problem (I am stating from memory only) as it could aid in depleting O2 supply. Here is where we differ though. We have had great success with pond color, or Ocean Blue, (to prevent the penetration of sunlight thus resulting in a decrease of algae and weeds), aeration, and feeding of the fish. We do not recommend adding chemicals willy-nilly so to speak, unless problems are arising. Then the treatment must be catered to the individual problem. We also do not care to much for fertilizer. Having used it in the past, we finally figured out that fish "poop" was actually doing the job naturally. In fact that is the new rage out today. Crop irrigation and fertilization through aquaculture (pumping pond water laced with fish manure onto crops, ingenius!) So we say to color, aerate, and feed. Then let nature take its course. Sounds simple enough but ponds have been around since the beginning of time - we (meaning all of the "specialist" only started screwing them up lately .
Now guys I am but one girl out here hanging on a limb with a bunch of boys in the same tree, but I would value any advice you would offer either in support of my recommendations or otherwise. Let's get Mr. Wilkerson straightened out. Save the Fish!!!

Thank you all for letting me post,

Deb

LL :

Sorry if my prior post raised undue concern. I had a suspicion that might happen . Please don't be overly concerned as Greg noted. More pics. may well help. Do all of the dead fish look like the posted pic. ? If not then I would not worry about the one fish, just keep watching and if you see more that look just like it then post again.

As Theo noted there can be many reasons why a fish might look funny. Stunted growth , cross breeding , genetics, in some cases toxicity or disease , injury and others.

For example BG produce thousands of offspring at a time. Out of all of them there may well be a few whos genes just do not match up correctly and it is deformed. When this happens the fish ,if it lives at all ,is most times weak and can't compete and dies and you never see it or know about it. That set of genes is then gone from the pond and are not reproduced in offspring. That is normal and it would not worry me one bit. If a large % of your fish that size look strange then it may be time to look for reasons.

But even that is not a matter to worry about. On a small pond it is fairly easy to start over or add the right combination of fish or mgt. methods to fix most problems . That is what this forum is all about ,helping each other with our ponds. The same type of normal pond occurences ( with no worry} can apply to the other reasons stated above.

My prior comments were observations about one dead fish from a pic. and did not apply to your pond status. As I noted they were way out on a limb and as Theo noted were speculation as to why. I did not say nor do I think that you have or are growing monsters in your pond. We will try to help if you give us the facts and keep us updated. Good luck and don't worry. ewest

We actually got a good laugh out the picture comments. It was kinda like pulling out your wallet to show someone a picture of your kids, and they jump back two feet and go woe! whats up with that! I will try to get some more pics in case that fellow wasn't typical. Maybe its not a hybrid blue gill, but we have observed quite a few of the blue gill, since spring, on beds.
Lewis

LL, much appreciated!