Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Help Algae

Hi, I sure do appreciate your website. I've used it before and found it very helpful. We have a 3/4 acre pond that we dug in agricultural land two years ago. It has a clay bottom and with additions of well water through the summer, stays pretty full. It is 12 feet deep for most of the pond, kidney shaped with a 1/2 slope on the sides. Due to slight erosion, we're losing the 1/2 slope and are starting to have a problem with green algae. I raked it out once a week last summer, and here we are with our first warm spell (Sacramento, CA) and I'm already having to rake it and it's only March! We have routinely kept barley hay in a large net over the aerated portion of the pond (center bottom, diffuser). We have blue gill, crappy, perch, mosquito fish, and about 5 catfish that have been in there about 18 months, and haven't seen any dead fish at all. We do see tons of baby fish swimming around. We were advised to put large mouth bass into it this Spring, and that is what we plan to do (maybe a dozen)? Our problem is water quality. We don't know if the algae or the sometimes cloudy water is caused by the high nutrient level of the soils (ag land) or if we can improve it by adding some "natural bacteria" or something like that. We haven't used any chemicals so far. We mostly want the pond for swimming and natural beauty. Fishing was never a priority... so we were wondering about maybe even putting in koi to control the algae... any suggestions! I really need help, as I don't look forward to raking algae every week for the rest of the pond's life!

You will get the more experienced people on soon, but Cutrin Plus granules worked well for me. It also comes in a liquid form, but only do about one-third of the pond a t a time to control oxygen depletion as the algae dies. If done all at once it might kill your fish. I think chelated copper sulfate is the item that does the work. If I remember correctly you can buy that also at a feed store or chem distributor. Hopefully you will get more answers. The Koi would probably work fine since you don't care about fishing. I put carp in my tanks (or ponds) even tho they supposedly don't go for algae as their first course. Good luck.

I'd like to hear some more thoughts on the algae, as I'd prefer to go without chemicals and with a fish that would eat the algae... or if the algae will eventually "disappear" in the life of pond development, I'll just live with it for a time. Still thinking about the LMB. Thanks!

Catherine,
You might want to check out the posts on Tilapia. They eat algae. You'll find it under Types of Fish to Choose

Ric, Thank you for your recommendation of Tilapia. Unfortunately, they're not allowed North of the Grapevine in CA... do you have any other recommendations? If there aren't any natural means of eliminating filamentous algae, I may need to do chemical means... but hate to hurt the fish. Any ideas? Thank you VERY much!

Catherine,

There is a new product available now through some of the suppliers that does not use copper as many algae products do. It is not supposed to be harmful to fish at recommended rates and kills the aglae by oxidation.

Here are two suppliers that I know of that carry it.

Keystone Hatcheries, ILL (815) 678-2537

Stoney Creek, MI 800 448-3873

It's called "Greenclean Algaecide" and is granular.
It's EPA registered, works on contact, and is completely biodegradable unlike copper based herbicides that leave copper in the pond soil.

It's supposed to work fast even on the toughest strains of algae, starts working in minutes, can kill the algae in 24 to 48 hours, has no water use restrictions, and is organically certified.

Dosage rates are 3 to 17 pounds per surface acre foot as a preventive, 30 to 170 pounds per acre foot as a treatment.

Don't have Robinson's price list handy but to give you an idea of the cost, Stoney Creek sells it for $85.00 per 20 # pail and $165.00 per 50 # pail. It's also available in 2 and 8 lb. containers for $24.00 and $49.00 respectfully.

Hi Cecil, I would look at this product "Greenclean Granular Algaecide"with some caution. It is sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate 50% which is basically hydrogen peroxide and soda ash, why the caution? It is very very safe but apperars to be weak on string type algaes and chara. We have been working with it all winter in 5 gallon grow outs to get an acceptable rate of product for control.Lets just say it takes "a bunch" The manufacturer is Biosafe 888-273-3088 We retail it for $119.60 for a 50 lb pail and will be listed on our webpage if completed this week, Keep in mind one of the biproducts of Barley Straw rotting is hydrogen peroxide and a rate of 2ppm would be great if that were practical. I have had little luck with Barley but will keep toying with it,Thanks Ted

Chemical Applications and Caution. I will climb on a "soap box" for this topic.

I tend to agree with Cecil and his cautionary statement. I think that when applying any chemical herbicide or pesticide products to pond ecosystems that one should use caution and closely follow the directions despite the chemicals apparent nonharmful nature. Kelly Duffie and I have several previous posts regarding chemical applications that are available for perusal on this forum.

Granted since the "Green Clean" is an oxidizer and I assume works by breaking down the cell walls it is promoted as safe since it is sort of nontoxic and "Basically hydrogen perioxide and soda ash". However it is powerfull enough at high enough concentrations to "kill" algae. Just because something does not kill fish or frogs does not mean that it is not killing a large number or proportion of microscopic pond- life species (beneficial and harmful types) that are not apparent to the casual observer. Many think that if fish are not dead as a result of chemical usage that it was "okay" regrdless of the dosage applied. I see little likely hood that one can kill a significant amount of algae and not impact a lot of other associated delicate microscopic life forms, fish eggs or maybe newly hatched fry in the vicinity of the application area. Also if most of the problematic algae are killed a lot of other beneficial algae are also killed in the process. Sort of like "throwing the baby out with the bath water". You could also equate it to eliminating a few criminals or bad guys in a town by eliminaing all in the whole town. Since I make my living examining and working with microscopic life forms, I do not agree with the philosophy that if you don't see it floating dead then it must not have been killed.

Granted very little lasting residual chemical affects probably occur from the "hydrogen peroxide type products" including barley straw. And companies are making progress at developing more environmentally friendly chemical products; "Green Clean" and "Sonar" are two of them. With that said, one still needs to properly follow application directions and dosage rates which is no doubt what Cecil was referring to with his "word of Caution".

One more note regarding chemical application for reducing algae or weed problems. The chemcial treatment basically just kills the current plant growth and almost always for just a relatively short time. The overabundant plant growth usually returns and is a symptom of an underlying problem or cause. Ideally, IF one can "fix", reduce, or minimize the cause then the plant growth will not be as abundant next time. Thus natural management. Killing overabundant algae or weeds with chemcials is like trying to cure a headcold by blowing your nose. The head cold will not go away until the virus is stopped, minimized or defeated. Overabundant algae or weed problems will not go away until their causative agents are reduced.

I realize that sometimes it is not practical or sometimes not time efficient to reduce the causative agents without the use of chemicals in some ponds. But in many cases perpetual or reoccurring pond problems can be reduced by non chemcical means IF one understands the underlying cause of the problem and the proper steps are taken to reduce those causes.

Bill,very good comments!. I'll qualify my "very safe" comment on the "GreenClean" As compared to products that I see being used in a lot of the Ohio ponds I deal with I believe this product to be "friendlier" to the eco system. Compared to what? I still see Simazine, Diuron (not labled) being dumped in ponds along with lots of copper sulfate. It always amazes me that you can go into stores like an Andersons and go to the pond supply area and see Aqua Shade,Crystal Blue (labled) and bags of Karmex and Princep on the same shelf (not labeled)I always ask the management how I should use these products and get a response of "read the label"I guess.Hydrogen peroxide type products are going to be non discrminating I realize but perhaps less longterm effect on the ecosystem. These products are about to get a real push in the pond care market. I believe what will limit their use is the cost but will be substituted with some of the old standbys We have been on a campaign to educate people that nutrient source can be a problem, and unwanted algae are just a symptom as you state.The number one concern from my cutomers concerning pond problems (symptoms) are always umwanted algae.I also find once they start to understand what is going on with their living breathing body of water that they start to realize "Algae aint so bad" Proper aeration and nutrient control and reduction are the two things that will turn a pond around the quickest and leave no harmful side effects.Many people are surprised to learn of fertilizing ponds to promote blooms depending on the goals of the pond owner.Fertilizing in Ohio is very uncommon.This is where PONDBOSS does such a great service in educating a pond owner. Ask the questions !!I also see a higher nutrient load where grass carp are involved due to their massive nutrient producing capability. Grass carp pros and or cons might be a topic starter sometime if not already covered.Snowing here in Ohio at present (no April fools) and have an aeration system to install this morning because its "spring" Ted

Catherine - For green filamentous or string algae do not use koi at this time. Try other methods first. Enough Koi numbers to reduce your algae will roil the water (murky or light mud colored) and make it less appealing for swimming. The murky water will reduce light penetration and reduce the amount of algae. Introducing Koi before bass are abundant will result in Koi over populating and then water will be muddier than when a few koi are present.

Regarding barley straw. Are you using adequate or proper amounts?. And are you introducing it early enough in the spring to be most effective before the algae becomes established.?

Have your tried Aquashade application early in the year? Although some do not like artificially blue water.

If you get your nutrient source under control, the consistant removal of green algae will result in less algae growth each year. If you are using the above methods in addition to aeration, a good bacterial program can also help in conjuction with the other "nonchemical" algae management methods.

Thank you ALL very much for your informative replies. We haven't done anything chemically to the pond yet, and are still considering our options. The bass were hard to locate, but I have 100 2-4"ers coming in 60 days. Once we get them in, I think that our baby fish population will diminish and we'll have some good fishing eventually. We did use Barley Straw all last year, but didn't place it in the pond adequately. We learned just recently that the water must be able to flow "through" it... we had it bundled too tightly. We put one bale in a 20' long net that we wrapped around the straw. It didn't get enough water circulating through it, even though we put it above the aerator... it rotted. Initially though, it helped the water clarity but didn't diminish the string algae. We are going to get more straw to add, and are thinking of adding Aquashade. I will research this topic more on your website. We'd rather keep chemicals out that will build up in the water... so, this ongoing problem seems to be very common. Maybe I'll just have to consider the mucking and raking as a nice exercise program! Any more feedback would be very nice. Thanks again!

Catherine,
Be sure to put the barley straw in early enough (like now). Reports indicate it doesn't do much good if you wait until the algae becomes a problem.

Ok, well, I guess as I have been informed of this string involving the mention of GreenClean Granular Algaecide, it is only appropriate for me to add my two cents. Please bear with the length...

1) What is GreenClean?

GreenClean is an EPA registered, tested, & approved product. The requirements for registration include testing to prove efficacy & that the chemistry will not cause harm to the environment.
Active Ingredient: Sodium Carbonate Peroxyhydrate

One thing to mention: GreenClean has not yet been approved for use in CA or NY - so unfortunately, Catherine, we are not yet even an option for your situations.

2) How does GreenClean work?

GreenClean is in fact an oxidizer. It works by disrupting cellular membranes of the algae cells, and then by destroying chlorophyll, unsaturated fatty acids & cellular DNA.

3) What are the effective rates for GreenClean?

LOW RATES

Preventative:
Initial Treatment: 30-70 lbs/acre-foot of water (spring/early summer)
Monthly Treatment: 17-50 lbs/acre-foot of water (every 2-4 weeks)

Spot Treatment:
(You can do just perimeter treatments)
30-70 lbs/acre-foot of water

Planktonic Algae Bloom:
(At these rates you can selectively control for blue-green and/or planktonic algae - leving beneficial algae in tact)
17-60 lbs/acre-foot of water

HIGH RATES

Easy to Kill Filamentous Algae Bloom:
100-170 lbs/acre-foot of water

Tolerant/Hard to Kill Filamentous Algae Bloom:
(this includes Oscillatoria, Hydrodictyon, Lyngbya, Pithophora, etc)
May require multiple treatments of GreenClean, or a combination approach with other algaecides.
150-170 lbs/acre-foot of water

At labeled rates, GreenClean will not kill Chara or other higher forms of plants.

4) What can affect the proper rates?

Type of algae, amount of growth, light intensity, water temperature, water quality, aeration, etc.

5) Will it affect non-target organisms?

At labeled rates, GreenClean will not harm fish (including trout and koi), plants or aquatic life.

There will be a slight initial affect on the “unseen” organisms such as beneficial algae, crustaceans, etc. – but these populations have been proven to come back even stronger than initial populations.

As testing has not been done on fish eggs, it is in fact a good idea not to use GreenClean in their vicinity - but this will go for almost any algaecide.

6) Key Uses and Benefits of GreenClean:

a. No water use restrictions
b. Fast acting
c. No mutational resistance
d. No bioaccumulation – biodegradable
e. Organic allowed by OMRI – use in organic treatment programs
f. Non-hazardous to fish & plants – use in ponds with sensitive fish
g. May break down cyanotoxins
h. Copper alternative – use in Cu restricted areas
i. Will work as an algaestat at low rates
j. Will bring dead algae to the surface where it can be skimmed off to prevent it from sinking to the bottom and providing nutrients for further blooms
k. Can also be used on any non-painted surface – beaches, docks, gravel, etc.

Let's see, what else can I comment on? As if this post wasn't long enough already...Oh, right, price and good managment practicies....

GreenClean can be more expensive than other algaecide products currently on the market. BioSafe Systems is working on several ways to reduce this cost, but used as a preventative program or as a spot treatement in smaller water bodies, GreenClean can be very cost competitive with products such as Cutrine Granular. Also, if you buy in bulk you can get better deals.

As for good managment practices, please continue to read labels, and try to target sources of non-point contamination or poor water quality that may be causing your algae problems. Those practices are good for all of us to stick to!

Thank you all who have read this far for being patient with me!

Good first post!
What's the deal with painted surfaces?

Does BioSafe have a website and do you deal directly with customers or do you have a distro network...

Thanks,

Torchy

Hi Rick,

The deal with the "painted surfaces" is that when people generally use this product for surface application they leave the concentrated granules sitting on the surface for long periods of time and this may cause some oxidation damage to various types of paint (and metal surfaces too), so we do not recommend using it on painted or metal surfaces. It is really more of a precautionary item than anything else.

If you use it as a diluted solution, or rinse it off after a short amount of time, there will not be a problem, but the effectiveness of the application will also be reduced.

Hope this helps!

Sorry Torchy, I didn't see the second page until my other message was posted...

Our website is:
www.biosafesystems.com

There is some info on GreenClean posted to the website (including the Label), but we are currently working on updating the Aquatics portion of the site - so please bear with us.

As far as distribution goes, we sell through a network of distributors throughout the United States. Check with your regular distributor, or feel free to give me a call and I can help you find someone in your area.

Toll Free: 888-657-2211

Regards - Mel