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Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
#517432 02/29/20 11:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 58
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 58
I occasionally dabble in researching potential alternative forage fish but after forgetting the details of my findings for the umpteenth time I realized I need to keep a permanent record. Then I thought "why not make it publicly available?" So I'll use this post to evaluate the forage potential forage value of commercially available native fishes sold by [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com] Jonah's Aquarium[/url] First priority is to find out whether these species can even thrive in a lentic environment. Hopefully by the time the weekend is up I'll at least have that much info up. Other members can chime in with their own experiences trying to keep these species and I'll add them to the list. [b][u]Suitable:[/u][/b] [u][i]Cyprinella spiloptera[/i][/u] (Spotfin Shiner) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlist.htm]Jonah's Aquarium Fish List[/url] [*] "Habitat includes moderate to large streams and rivers of low to high turbidity, with bottom of sand, gravel, mud or rubble. Sometimes this species occurs in lakes and sloughs." [url=http://explorer.natureserve.org/servlet/NatureServe?searchName=Cyprinella+spiloptera+][ref][/url] [*] "Max length : 12.0 cm TL male/unsexed; common length : 7.7 cm." [url=https://www.fishbase.se/summary/Cyprinella-spiloptera.html][ref][/url] [*] "Eggs are deposited in crevices of rocks and logs and are defended by males." [url=https://www.fishbase.se/summary/Cyprinella-spiloptera.html][ref][/url] [*] "The eggs are deposited around submerged logs or exposed tree roots near riffles." [url=https://www2.illinois.gov/dnr/education/CDIndex/SpotfinShiner.pdf][ref][/url] [*] "It readily and easily spawns in ponds and can be prolific. I have been raising them in small ponds for over 10 years." -Bill Cody [/list] [u][i]Cyprinella whipplei[/i][/u] (Steelcolor Shiner) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlistoccasional.htm]Jonah's Aquarium special orders[/url] [*] "Habitat includes runs, pools, and backwaters of warm, moderate- to somewhat low-gradient, large creeks and medium-sized to large rivers that typically are clear; this shiner also tolerates streams that generally are turbid" [url=http://explorer.natureserve.org/servlet/NatureServe?searchName=Cyprinella+whipplei+][ref][/url] [*] "[t]he species Cyprinella whipplei (Steelcolor Shiner) ... will readily spawn in ponds that have 1/8"-3/16" wide -cracks and crevices in the structure." - Cody [/list] [u][i]Gambusia affinis[/i][/u] (western mosquitofish) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlist.htm]Jonah's Aquarium Fish List[/url] [*] "Common to abundant in vegetated ponds, lakes, drainage ditches, and backwaters and oxbows of sluggish streams." [url=http://txstate.fishesoftexas.org/gambusia%20affinis.htm][ref][/url] [/list] [u][i]Gambusia holbrooki[/i][/u] (eastern mosquitofish) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlistoccasional.htm]Jonah's Aquarium special orders[/url] [*] "Adults occur in standing to slow-flowing water, mostly in vegetated ponds and lakes, backwaters and quiet pools of steams." [url=https://fishbase.se/summary/4521][ref][/url] [/list] [u][i]Notemigonus crysoleucas[/i][/u] (golden shiner) [list] [*] Well-known forage fish. [/list] [u][i]Pimephales notatus[/i][/u] (Bluntnose Minnow) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlist.htm]Jonah's Aquarium Fish List[/url] [*] "Occurs almost anywhere in its range but most common in clear rocky streams (Ref. 3814, 10294); also inhabits large rivers, reservoirs and glacial lakes to the north." [url=http://www.fishbase.org/summary/2931][ref][/url] [/list] [u][i]Pimephales promelas[/i][/u] (fathead minnow) [list] [*]Commercial sources: Take your pick. [*] "" [url=][ref][/url] [*] "" [url=][ref][/url] [/list] Pimephales vigilax (Bullhead Minnow) Commercial sources: Jonah's Aquarium special orders "Variety of low-gradient streams, in more sluggish pools, eddies, or backwaters over mud or silt substrata (Starrett 1950a); ditches, creeks, bayous; lakes and impoundments, as well as large rivers" [ref] [u][i]Umbra limi[/i][/u] (central mudminnow) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlistoccasional.htm]Jonah's Aquarium special orders[/url] [*] "Commonly found in slow moving streams, creeks, drainage ditches, and ponds with abundant vegetation and bottom layer of organic matter." [url=https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/FactSheet.aspx?SpeciesID=977][ref][/url] [*] "They inhabit both lotic and lentic habitats, providing that the waters are still or slow moving and there is dense cover available." [url=https://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Umbra_limi/][ref][/url] [*][url=http://www.nanfa.org/fif/mudminnow.shtml]http://www.nanfa.org/fif/mudminnow.shtml[/url] [/list] [b][u]Potentially suited:[/u][/b] [u][i]Culaea inconstans[/i][/u] (brook stickleback) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlistoccasional.htm]Jonah's Aquarium special orders[/url] [*] "It favors areas of rivers, streams, lakes, and ponds that have cool, unclouded (not turbid) waters with large amounts of vegetation." [url=http://academics.cehd.umn.edu/hatch/research/fish/fishes/brook_stickleback.html][ref][/url] [*] " They usually do not grow much bigger than 60 mm (2.4 in). The biggest ones reach about 80 mm (a little over 3 in)." [url=http://academics.cehd.umn.edu/hatch/research/fish/fishes/brook_stickleback.html][ref][/url] [*] "Despite the sharp spines on their backs, brook sticklebacks are eaten by ... brook trout, largemouth and smallmouth bass, northern pike, yellow perch, walleyes..." [url=http://academics.cehd.umn.edu/hatch/research/fish/fishes/brook_stickleback.html][ref][/url] [*] "Each female that visits the nest may lay 50 to 100 eggs." [url=http://academics.cehd.umn.edu/hatch/research/fish/fishes/brook_stickleback.html][ref][/url] [*] "Males build, guard and aerate the nest where the eggs are deposited." [url=https://www.fishbase.se/summary/Culaea-inconstans.html][ref][/url] [/list] [u][i]Elassoma evergladei[/i][/u] (Everglades pygmy sunfish) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlistoccasional.htm]Jonah's Aquarium special orders[/url] [*] "Occurs in swamps, heavily vegetated sloughs and small sluggish streams, usually over mud. Feeds on worms and crustaceans." [url=http://www.fishbase.org/summary/3364][ref][/url] [*] "Oviparous, eggs are deposited in aquatic vegetation, preferably on strands of Ceratophyllum sp. when available." [url=http://www.fishbase.org/summary/3364][ref][/url] [*] "Max length : 3.4 cm TL male/unsexed; common length : 2.3 cm TL." [url=https://www.fishbase.in/summary/3364][ref][/url] [*] " Produces 40-60 eggs." [url=https://www.fishbase.in/summary/3364][ref][/url] [/list] [u][i]Elassoma zonatum[/i][/u] (banded pygmy sunfish) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlist.htm]Jonah's Aquarium Fish List[/url] [*] "Throughout range, E. zonatum frequents lentic waters such as cypress swamps, lake margins, sloughs, sluggish streams, and lowland backwaters." [url=http://txstate.fishesoftexas.org/elassoma%20zonatum.htm][ref][/url] [*] "Maximum size: 44.6 mm TL." [url=http://txstate.fishesoftexas.org/elassoma%20zonatum.htm][ref][/url] [*] "Near submerged vegetation." [url=http://txstate.fishesoftexas.org/elassoma%20zonatum.htm][ref][/url] [*] "a single female may contain 96-970 eggs; average size female (25 mm) lays about 300 eggs over several days in lots of 60 to 40." [url=http://txstate.fishesoftexas.org/elassoma%20zonatum.htm][ref][/url] [*] "Spawning: Easy. Will spawn continuously if well fed.." [url=http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php/topic/14398-native-fish-care-sheets/][ref][/url] [/list] [u][i]Enneacanthus chaetodon[/i][/u] (blackbanded sunfish) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlistoccasional.htm]Jonah's Aquarium special orders[/url] [*] "Inhabits vegetated lakes, ponds, quiet sand and mud-bottomed pools and backwaters of creeks and small to medium rivers." [url=https://www.fishbase.in/summary/3367][ref][/url] [*] "Aquarium Hardiness: Moderately hardy." [url=https://animal-world.com/encyclo/fresh/perches/BlackbandedSunfish.php][ref][/url] [*] "Max length : 10.0 cm TL male/unsexed; (Ref. 3993); common length : 4.8 cm." [url=https://www.fishbase.in/summary/3367][ref][/url] [*] "Spawning took place in a small backyard pond (about 5'xl2')." [url=http://www.nanfa.org/articles/acbbanded.shtml][ref][/url] [/list] [u][i]Enneacanthus gloriosus[/i][/u] (bluespotted sunfish) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlistoccasional.htm]Jonah's Aquarium special orders[/url] [*] "The preferred habitats for the bluespotted sunfish are oxbows and side ponds characterized by dense submerged aquatic vegetation." [url=https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/greatlakes/FactSheet.aspx?SpeciesID=377&Potential=N&Type=0][ref][/url] [*] "Eggs are laid on the bottom or among plants in a solitary nest made by the male in a small territory." [url=http://explorer.natureserve.org/servlet/NatureServe?searchName=Enneacanthus%20gloriosus][ref][/url] [*] "Length: 8 centimeters." [url=http://explorer.natureserve.org/servlet/NatureServe?searchName=Enneacanthus%20gloriosus][ref][/url] [/list] [u][i]Etheostoma fusiforme[/i][/u] (swamp darter) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlistoccasional.htm]Jonah's Aquarium special orders[/url] [*] "Primarily occurs in slow moving or stagnant waters such as ponds, swamps, and small backwaters." [url=https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/FactSheet.aspx?speciesID=813][ref][/url] [*] "maximum length of 2 inches ." [url=https://wildlife.state.nh.us/fishing/profiles/swamp-darter.html][ref][/url] [*] "The female vibrates her body while depositing eggs singularly into the vegetation." [url=https://guides.nynhp.org/swamp-darter/][ref][/url] [*] [url=http://www.nanfa.org/ac/spawning-swamp-darter-notes.pdf]Interesting paper on spawning swamp darters in aquaria.[/url] [/list] [u][i]Etheostoma nigrum[/i][/u] (Johnny Darter) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlist.htm]Jonah's Aquarium Fish List[/url] [*] "Johnny darters are found in shallow water (usually less than 0.5 m) in small to medium sized rivers, creeks, streams, and headwaters. They are found in areas with sandy, muddy, or rocky substrates, but are more common over sandy or gravel substrates in slow-moving water. They are also found along the sandy shores of lakes or large rivers." [url=http://www.biokids.umich.edu/critters/Etheostoma_nigrum/][ref][/url] [*] "Lacustrine Habitat(s): Shallow water." [url=http://explorer.natureserve.org/servlet/NatureServe?searchName=Etheostoma+nigrum+][ref][/url] [*] "Length: 6 centimeters." [url=http://explorer.natureserve.org/servlet/NatureServe?searchName=Etheostoma+nigrum+][ref][/url] [*] " Eggs are found clustered on underside of stone and guarded by males." [url=https://www.fishbase.in/summary/3445] [*] "Johnny darters breed once yearly." [url=http://www.biokids.umich.edu/critters/Etheostoma_nigrum/][ref][/url] [*] "Range number of offspring 48 to 691." [url=http://www.biokids.umich.edu/critters/Etheostoma_nigrum/][ref][/url] [*] [url=http://www.nanfa.org/ac/spawning-etheostoma-nigrum.pdf]Interesting paper on spawning Johnny darters in aquaria.[/url] [/list] [u][i]Etheostoma serrifer[/i][/u] (sawcheek darter) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlistoccasional.htm]Jonah's Aquarium special orders[/url] [*] "Habitat includes sluggish headwaters, creeks, and small rivers, especially where debris or aquatic plants offer protection; also quiet backwaters of rivers and swamps and occasionally small natural lakes and artificial impoundments." [url=http://explorer.natureserve.org/servlet/NatureServe?searchName=Etheostoma%20serrifer][ref][/url] [*] "Lacustrine Habitat(s): Shallow water Palustrine Habitat(s): FORESTED WETLAND." [url=http://explorer.natureserve.org/servlet/NatureServe?searchName=Etheostoma%20serrifer][ref][/url] [*] "Length: 6 centimeters." [url=http://explorer.natureserve.org/servlet/NatureServe?searchName=Etheostoma%20serrifer][ref][/url] [*] "Turns out this little darter was easy to spawn, and very similar to the Swamp Darter and Cypress Darter found here in Tennessee (Etheostoma fusiforme and E. proeliare). Spawning took place in early spring on vegetation. ." [url=https://www.conservationfisheries.org/sawcheek-darter][ref][/url] [/list] [u][i]Fundulus chrysotus[/i][/u] (golden topminnow) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=https://www.azgardens.com/product/golden-topminnow-fundulus-chrysotus-for-sale/]Arizona aquatic gardens[/url], [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlistoccasional.htm]Jonah's Aquarium special orders[/url], [url=http://www.aquaculturestore.com/Golden-Topminnow.html]Sachs Systems Aquaculture Inc.[/url], [*] "The golden topminnow prefers quiet ponds and backwaters with extensive accumulations of aquatic vegetation. " [url=https://www.outdooralabama.com/topminnow/golden-topminnow][ref][/url] [*] "ADULT SIZE: 1.2 to 2.2 in (30 to 56 mm). " [url=https://www.outdooralabama.com/topminnow/golden-topminnow][ref][/url] [*] "Max length : 8.5 cm TL male/unsexed; common length : 4.0 cm TL" [url=https://www.fishbase.se/summary/Fundulus-chrysotus.html][ref][/url] [*] "Eggs laid a few at a time over a period of a week or more. Eggs are released and fertilized one at a time, usually deposited on the roots of floating plants or on any fibrous material." [url=http://txstate.fishesoftexas.org/fundulus%20chrysotus.htm][ref][/url] [*] "10-20 fertilized eggs per day." [url=http://txstate.fishesoftexas.org/fundulus%20chrysotus.htm][ref][/url] [*] [url=http://txstate.fishesoftexas.org/fundulus%20chrysotus.htm]Interesting thread about keeping these guys in aquaria.[/url] [/list] [u][i]Fundulus lineolatus[/i][/u] (lined topminnow) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlistoccasional.htm]Jonah's Aquarium special orders[/url] [*] "Occurs in swamps and other vegetated standing water bodies, and quiet pools and backwaters of streams. " [url=https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/FactSheet.aspx?speciesID=689][ref][/url] [*] "Lacustrine Habitat(s): Deep water, Shallow water Palustrine Habitat(s): FORESTED WETLAND, HERBACEOUS WETLAND, SCRUB-SHRUB WETLAND. " [url=http://explorer.natureserve.org/servlet/NatureServe?searchName=Fundulus%20lineolatus][ref][/url] [*] "The breeding of Fundulus lineolatus is fairly simple. The eggs are regularly laid in spawning mop and fertilized... The photosensitive eggs must be kept somewhat dark at a temperature no higher than 24 degrees Celsius. " [url=https://www.aquainfo.org/article/fundulus-lineolatus-lined-topminnow/][ref][/url] [*] "Max length : 8.4 cm TL male/unsexed; (Ref. 5723); common length : 4.3 cm TL." [url=https://www.fishbase.se/Country/CountrySpeciesSummary.php?c_code=840&id=3194][ref][/url] [*] [url=https://www.fishbase.se/Country/CountrySpeciesSummary.php?c_code=840&id=3194]Interesting forum thread about keeping these guys in aquaria.[/url] [/list] [u][i] Fundulus notatus[/i][/u] (blackstripe topminnow) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlist.htm]Jonah's Aquarium Fish List[/url] [*] "Inhabits quiet surface water, usually near margins of creeks and small rivers, ponds, and lakes...Is easy to maintain in the aquarium." [url=https://www.fishbase.se/summary/Fundulus-notatus.html][ref][/url] [*] "Max length : 8.0 cm TL male/unsexed; (Ref. 27139); common length : 5.8 cm TL ." [url=https://www.fishbase.se/summary/Fundulus-notatus.html][ref][/url] [*] "Eggs deposited one at a time on algae or other plant material ." [url=http://www.fishesoftexas.org/taxa/fundulus-notatus][ref][/url] [*] "Female may produce 20-30 eggs over a short time period, repeating the process when more eggs have ripened." [url=http://www.fishesoftexas.org/taxa/fundulus-notatus][ref][/url] [*] "There is little special preparation necessary in order to spawn either species as for most two-week killifish, temperatures in the mid seventies and heavy feeding with good quality foods (but even flake foods are relished by them and are taken eagerly) while the sexes are kept apart for two or three weeks is all that is required." [url=http://www.nanfa.org/articles/acfundulus.shtml][ref][/url] [/list] [u][i] Heterandria formosa[/i][/u] (least killifish or pygmy livebearer,) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlist.htm]Jonah's Aquarium Fish List[/url], [url=http://www.aquaculturestore.com/Least-Killifish.html]Sachs Systems Aquaculture[/url] [*] "Weedy pond and stream margins, from fresh to brackish (about 30 ppt.) water." [url=http://www.fishesoftexas.org/taxa/heterandria-formosa][ref][/url] [*] "The females are barely one-inch long and the males are usually a third that size." [url=http://www.nanfa.org/ac/pygmy-and-least-killifish.pdf][ref][/url] [*] "The females drop fry continuously as opposed to a large batch at once." [url=http://www.nanfa.org/ac/pygmy-and-least-killifish.pdf][ref][/url] [*] "Preferred Water Chemistry: Subtropical freshwater, brackish; pH 7.0 to 8.0, soft to hard 160 to 350 ppm, 20 to 26 degrees Celsius (68 to 79 degrees Fahrenheit." [url=http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/fish-of-the-month/heterandria-formosa.htm][ref][/url] [*] "Found in ... the swamps and ditches of our southern states." [url=https://books.google.com/books?id=erNJAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA87&lpg=RA2-PA87&dq=Heterandria+formosa+%22spawn%22+%22ponds%22&source=bl&ots=grib8Shodc&sig=ACfU3U1VMaiHKgk__E6tPrrOKQX7wVvcyg&hl=en&ppis=_e&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj9mdbBjJPoAhUYqJ4KHfp3AF04ChDoATACegQICxAB#v=onepage&q&f=false][ref, p. 86][/url] [/list] [u][i]Jordanella floridae[/i][/u] (flagfish) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=https://www.azgardens.com/product/algae-eating-adult-american-flag-fish/]Aquaculture Store[/url], [url=https://www.azgardens.com/product/algae-eating-adult-american-flag-fish/]Arizona Aquatic Gardens[/url], [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlist.htm]Jonah's Aquarium Fish List[/url], [url=https://www.liveaquaria.com/product/2776/?pcatid=2776]LiveAquaria[/url] [*] "In vegetated sloughs, ponds, lakes, and sluggish streams; enters brackish water." [url=https://www.fws.gov/fisheries/ans/erss/uncertainrisk/ERSS-Jordanella-floridae-FINAL-August2018.pdf][ref][/url] [*] "[t]he male size about 25-30% larger than the female (3˜ vs. 2 ¼˜).." [url=https://www.aquainfo.org/article/jordanella-floridae-american-flag-fish/][ref][/url] [*] "This is an easy-to-breed species..." [url=https://www.aquainfo.org/article/jordanella-floridae-american-flag-fish/][ref][/url] [*] "It’s a fractional spawner with females depositing eggs on a more-or-less continuous basis when a warm temperature is maintained" [url=https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/jordanella-floridae/][ref][/url] [*] "Eggs are released singly or in small batches and attached to algae or other surfaces by means of small filaments, and there is no additional care from either male or female once they’re deposited." [url=https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/jordanella-floridae/][ref][/url] [/list] [u][i] Lepomis megalotis megalotis[/i][/u] (central longear sunfish) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlist.htm]Jonah's Aquarium Fish List[/url] [*] "Reservoirs, small streams; generally absent from downstream lowland sections." [url=http://www.fishesoftexas.org/taxa/lepomis-megalotis][ref][/url] [*] "Aquatic Biomes lakes and ponds rivers and streams." [url=https://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Lepomis_megalotis/][ref][/url] [*] "The central longear is typically 4-7 inches, but can reach 9 inches, and the northern longear is typically 2.5-4.5 inches, but can reach 5.5 inches. " [url=http://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/species-and-habitats/species-guide-index/fish/longear-sunfish] [*] "Longear sunfish spawn in groups but do not form large colonies like bluegill. Males select a spawning site in shallow water and build a nest on gravel substrate usually near cover. Longear sunfish spawn multiple times once the water temperature reaches the low 70's between mid-May and mid-August. A single large female can lay over 22,000 eggs. Males aggressively guard the nest and eggs until shortly after hatching. Longear sunfish take 2-3 years to mature." [url=http://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/species-and-habitats/species-guide-index/fish/longear-sunfish][ref][/url] [*] "If you are interested in breeding this fascinating sunfish it's a snap. In the laboratory with the proper diet, and temperature (77 F.) and an extended photo period they have spawned every 0-14 days for over a year!" [url=http://www.nanfa.org/ac/central-longear-lepomis-megalotis-aquarium.pdf][ref][/url] [/list] [u][i]Lepomis miniatus[/i][/u] (redspotted sunfish) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlist.htm]Jonah's Aquarium Fish List[/url] [*] "Streams, swamps (Ross 2001; Boshung and Mayden 2004); low-salinity coastal estuaries." [url=http://www.fishesoftexas.org/taxa/lepomis-miniatus][ref][/url] [*] "Lacustrine Habitat(s): Shallow water Palustrine Habitat(s): FORESTED WETLAND." [url=http://explorer.natureserve.org/servlet/NatureServe?searchName=Lepomis+miniatus][ref][/url] [*] " Swamps, sloughs, bottomland lakes, pools of creeks and small to medium rivers, less brackish portions of coastal estuaries; common in quiet or moderately flowing waters with heavy vegetation or other cover and bottom of mud or sand." [url=http://explorer.natureserve.org/servlet/NatureServe?searchName=Lepomis+miniatus][ref][/url] [*] "Length: 20 centimeters." [url=http://explorer.natureserve.org/servlet/NatureServe?searchName=Lepomis+miniatus][ref][/url] [*] "sexually mature at 2 years old or older." [url=http://explorer.natureserve.org/servlet/NatureServe?searchName=Lepomis+miniatus][ref][/url] [*] "The redspotted sunfish has an average clutch size of around 2000." [url=https://books.google.com/books?id=uZ2rHfYHYncC&pg=PA20&dq=%22Reproductive+biology+and+early+life+history+of+fishes%22+%22redspotted+sunfish%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=84CpULHLLoqu9ATAnIHAAw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=redspotted&f=false][Wikipedia cites][/url] [/list] [u][i]Lucania goodei[/i][/u] (bluefin killifish) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=https://www.azgardens.com/product/algae-eating-bluefin-killifish-male/]Arizona Aquatic Gardens[/url], [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlist.htm]Jonah's Aquarium Fish List[/url] [*] "Heavily vegetated ponds and streams, in areas of little or no current." [url=http://www.fishesoftexas.org/taxa/lucania-goodei][ref][/url] [*] "Maximum size: 50 mm TL" [url=http://www.fishesoftexas.org/taxa/lucania-goodei][ref][/url] [*] "Bluefin Killifish spawn year-round in the southern part of the range, but in the Carolinas they breed in summer" [url=https://www.fws.gov/Fisheries/ANS/erss/uncertainrisk/ERSS-Lucania-goodei_Final.pdf][ref][/url] [*] [url=http://fishprofiles.com/profiles/freshwater/OthersFW/Lucania_goodei/]Usefule info about water preferences[/url] [/list] [u][i]Notropis volucellus[/i][/u] (Mimic Shiner) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/JonahSite/fishlistoccasional.htm]Jonah's Aquarium special orders[/url] [*] "Sandy pools of headwaters, creeks, and small to large rivers; quiet areas of lakes. Common in moderate-sized streams, oxbow lakes." [url=http://txstate.fishesoftexas.org/notropis%20volucellus.htm][ref][/url] [*] "Mimic shiners live in lakes and the quieter parts of streams, often around vegetation." [url=http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/cek7/nyfish/Cyprinidae/mimic_shiner.html][ref][/url] [*] "Schools of mimic shiners are most frequently encountered around concentrations of river weed over sand or sand and gravel substrates in large rivers and streams." [url=https://www.outdooralabama.com/shiners/mimic][ref][/url] [*] "Two age-classes represented in collection from a Connecticut pond..." [url=http://txstate.fishesoftexas.org/notropis%20volucellus.htm][ref][/url] [*] "Maximum size: 66 mm (2.60 in) TL" [url=http://txstate.fishesoftexas.org/notropis%20volucellus.htm][ref][/url] [*] "Clutch sizes increases with the size of the female, ranging from 74 to 386 oocytes in fish of 36.4-45.1 mm (1.43-1.78 in) SL" [url=http://txstate.fishesoftexas.org/notropis%20volucellus.htm][ref][/url] [/list] [u][i]Noturus gyrinus[/i][/u] (tadpole madtom) [list] [*]Commercial sources: [url=http://www.aquaculturestore.com/Tadpole-Madtoms.html]Sachs Systems Aquaculture Inc.[/url] [*] " I also thought about the tadpole madtom (Noturus gyrinus). It is very adapted to pond life. It looks much like a small bullhead and reaches a maximum size of 4� keeping it well within the forageable size of most predatory fish. I doubt it really has much value in a pond as forage, but if you�re the kinda guy who wants variety, well there ya go! ." -[url=http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=146039#Post146039]CJBS2003[/url] [/list]%

Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #517439 02/29/20 06:04 PM
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Is there a genuflect emoji?

Cody Note: A lot of the above small fish species, too many to list here, will not spawn in a pond because these fish are stream habitat spawners primarily requiring moving water conditions. It would far easier to list the species that would spawn in pond habitats. The main disagreement that I have is the species Cyprinella whipplei (Steelcolor Shiner) under the heading Probably Unsuited. This species will readily spawn in ponds that have 1/8"-3/16" wide -cracks and crevices in the structure.

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Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #517445 03/01/20 12:57 AM
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If you'll look at my "alternative forage species" post, you'll find that a couple of other items come into play here. #1, Jonah's aquarium won't sell any of these to you if they know they are not going in an aquarium. #2, You must submit documentation that the species you choose is Native to your Location.
#3, Plan on $7.50-$8.00 a fish delivered.
What I'm finding in my quest for alternative forage is that there IS A REASON these aren't readily available.
Jonah's is one of 6 folks I've dealt with in my quest to obtain about 300 fish of 3 species. I've got about 3k in this and have about 200 fish (adults) ready for season to reproduce in a 5k pond for forage only because that's the only way to propagate to numbers that are sustainable.


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Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
Snipe #517452 03/01/20 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted By: Animal Diversity Web
Pirate perch are unusual in that their urogenital opening is positioned far anteriorally under the throat (Fletcher, et. Al. 2004). This feature is not present in juveniles, as the anus migrates with maturity.


shocked

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Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #517458 03/01/20 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: saint_abyssal
Originally Posted By: Animal Diversity Web
Pirate perch are unusual in that their urogenital opening is positioned far anteriorally under the throat (Fletcher, et. Al. 2004). This feature is not present in juveniles, as the anus migrates with maturity.


shocked


For many people that I know I think the opposite pattern might hold.

Amazing list!

Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
Snipe #517459 03/01/20 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: Snipe
If you'll look at my "alternative forage species" post, you'll find that a couple of other items come into play here. #1, Jonah's aquarium won't sell any of these to you if they know they are not going in an aquarium. #2, You must submit documentation that the species you choose is Native to your Location.
#3, Plan on $7.50-$8.00 a fish delivered.
What I'm finding in my quest for alternative forage is that there IS A REASON these aren't readily available.
Jonah's is one of 6 folks I've dealt with in my quest to obtain about 300 fish of 3 species. I've got about 3k in this and have about 200 fish (adults) ready for season to reproduce in a 5k pond for forage only because that's the only way to propagate to numbers that are sustainable.


Snipe can you point out that post please? I must have missed it.

Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #517469 03/01/20 08:10 PM
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Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #517571 03/04/20 01:18 PM
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Created a confirmed section per Cody's remarks about C. whipplei. Gonna re-examine listings in the "potential" category.

Found many explicit references to pirate perch living in ponds, but only references to them spawning in streams, so I moved them to questionable.

Couldn't find any references to Culaea inconstans preferring creeks, males apparently aerate the eggs themselves. Keeping them in potential until contrary evidence emerges.

Found a reference to C. spiloptera spawning near riffles, so I moved it to questionable, although they're related to C. whipplei. If anyone knows better, please chime in.

Found a few references to E. evergladei being spawned in aquaria without even having filters, so it looks like they don't need a current.

Found a reference for E zonatum spawning very readily as well. Leaving it where it is.

Found explicit E. chaetodon pond spawning reference.

Last edited by saint_abyssal; 03/04/20 02:02 PM.
Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #517572 03/04/20 02:33 PM
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For starts, move Cyprinella spiloptera spotfin shiner to suitable. It readily and easily spawns in ponds and can be prolific. I have been raising them in small ponds for over 10 years. IMO several of the other Cyprinella are also likely to spawn in ponds given the right structure in the areas where they are found naturally.
I would move these to suitable.
Pimephales notatus (Bluntnose Minnow)
Commercial sources: Jonah's Aquarium Fish List
"Occurs almost anywhere in its range but most common in clear rocky streams (Ref. 3814, 10294); also inhabits large rivers, reservoirs and glacial lakes to the north." [ref]

I am almost 100% positive the bullhead minnow will spawn in ponds because it spawns the same way fatheads and bluntnose spawn.
Pimephales vigilax (Bullhead Minnow)
Commercial sources: Jonah's Aquarium special orders
"Variety of low-gradient streams, in more sluggish pools, eddies, or backwaters over mud or silt substrata (Starrett 1950a); ditches, creeks, bayous; lakes and impoundments, as well as large rivers" [ref]

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Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
Bill Cody #517574 03/04/20 03:07 PM
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Moved C spiloptera to confirmed per Bill Cody.

Moved other C. species to questionable until we can get more information.

Leaving E. gloriosus where it is since I can't find any evidence that it differs from E chaetodon.

Swamp darters look like they're good, too, since they spawn in aquaria aparrently without any provisions for simulated current. Added reference.

Gambusias are well known so I moved them to confirmed.

Looks like Johnny darters are good too.

Last edited by saint_abyssal; 03/04/20 04:35 PM.
Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #517592 03/04/20 09:11 PM
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Next suggestion is move these two to suitable or confirmed good pond spawning species. There is one local pond near me that is 'full' of central mudminnows. Mudminnow has been published in a journal to be a good species for forage for yellow perch in ponds, small lakes. But I'm not sure how well it would withstand bass predation.
Umbra limi (central mudminnow)
Commercial sources: Jonah's Aquarium special orders
"Commonly found in slow moving streams, creeks, drainage ditches, and ponds with abundant vegetation and bottom layer of organic matter." [ref]
"They inhabit both lotic and lentic habitats, providing that the waters are still or slow moving and there is dense cover available." [ref]
http://www.nanfa.org/fif/mudminnow.shtml


Umbra pygmaea (eastern mudminnow)
Commercial sources: Jonah's Aquarium special orders
"Inhabits quiet streams, sloughs, swamps and other wetlands over sand, mud and debris, often among dense vegetation." [ref]
"The typical habitat of U. pygmaea is lowland waters with little to no streamflow, such as backwaters, ponds and irrigation channels." [ref]

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Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #517593 03/04/20 10:19 PM
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Hey thanks for posting this thread.

The mimic shiner looked very interesting to me. They are common in some oxbow lakes and a reference cited broadcast spawning over vegetation in lakes. I think I would want specimens sourced from the oxbows as opposed to streams.

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/04/20 10:21 PM.
Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #517607 03/05/20 11:07 AM
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Promoted U limi per Bill Cody. Awaiting more explicit confirmation for U pygmaea.

E serrifer, F chrysotus, lineolatus, and notatus all look good.

Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #517671 03/06/20 03:36 PM
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saint_abyssal, could you post some stocking numbers that would ensure a reproducing population in the pond providing that there was suitable reproductive habitat for said species?

i.e. In a 1 acre pond the stocking amount for "X" species would be between x and y fish.

Unless the fish were sold by weight of course, like Fathead Minnows and Golden Shiners.

It would be a shame for people to think that stocking (for instance) 20 fish in a 1/4 acre pond would be enough to establish a self sustaining reproducing population when in reality it would take 1,000 fish.


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Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
esshup #517851 03/11/20 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by esshup
saint_abyssal, could you post some stocking numbers that would ensure a reproducing population in the pond providing that there was suitable reproductive habitat for said species?

i.e. In a 1 acre pond the stocking amount for "X" species would be between x and y fish.

Unless the fish were sold by weight of course, like Fathead Minnows and Golden Shiners.

It would be a shame for people to think that stocking (for instance) 20 fish in a 1/4 acre pond would be enough to establish a self sustaining reproducing population when in reality it would take 1,000 fish.


I will if I ever encounter that kind of information. These fish aren't commonly kept forage species so I'm not sure anyone even knows unless they've been experimenting themselves.

I think H formosa is okay

H. nigricans is probably not

J floridae is probably good

Ls megalotic and miniatus are probably okay

L. goodei is probably good wink

L cornutus has been moved to probably not. Apparently lives in lakes but I havent found any references to pond-like environments.

Last edited by saint_abyssal; 03/11/20 04:32 PM.
Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #517854 03/11/20 02:59 PM
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I started a self-sustaining population of LCS in a 1 acre pond with a dozen 3" fish. It all depends on if those fish are health and have good cover. It also depends on what else is in the pond with those fish that might eat them. My SMB in the same pond were started with a total of 20 fish with 10 stocked in each of 2 consecutive years. Lots of SMB of various sizes are now present. If a pair of fish pull off a spawn and all the fry are not eaten, it is likely they will establish unless to little genetic diversity results in unhealthy fish.

Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #517876 03/12/20 08:22 AM
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M melanops is probably not good- every source I find says it spawns in riffles

N atherinoides and N hudonius are also probably nots

Moving N petersoni to questionable due to lack of references to nonflowing habitats apart from lakes.

P. latipinna and P reticulata seem fine

R obtusus probably needs flowing water to breed

Last edited by saint_abyssal; 03/12/20 11:41 AM.
Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #517913 03/13/20 06:55 AM
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Tag


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #519084 04/08/20 12:07 PM
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Great list of species and suitable options. I would like to post another to the list with no personal experience with the fish. Red Shiner Cyprinella lutrensis

Cody Note : I think the red shiner should be placed in the "suitable" category.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/09/20 09:01 PM.

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Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #519352 04/13/20 11:02 PM
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Tag!

This is great stuff, thank you for sharing all of this.


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Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #520438 05/04/20 08:01 AM
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Awesome idea here. Another one for consideration I ran across this morning at Sachs is the Bannerfin Shiner. I have no experience, but it is another Cyprinella species (cyprinella leedsi). From my brief research it sounds like they are limited to the SE part of the country.

Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #520793 05/09/20 09:58 PM
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Dr Bill, how does one differentiate between the bullhead minnow (p. vigilax) and the fathead minnow (p. promelas)?

There is variety that Pimephales that inhabit tributaries of Rowlett creek here in the north dallas metro. They seemed to have spawned in a drainage ditch near my house. I happened to see one dead specimen that was 4" long but I see no adults where there are currently thousands of little Pimephales. All of the larger minnows are gambusia and red shiner and so it seems that the either the small Pimephales washed down from a pond that lies upstream or maybe they ran up stream after hatching? Not sure.

Anyways, both species are native in Texas and their ranges overlap where I live. We are outside the range of the bluntnose minnow which southern extent is about 60 miles north in the red river drainage (we are in the Trinity River drainage). Any help with id is greatly appreciated.

Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #520815 05/10/20 10:42 AM
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The easiest and quickest way to separate the fathead from the bullhead minnow is to look for a distinct spot at the base of the tail where the tail meets the body. Caudal spot feature is same for the bluntnose minnows but if you don't have bluntnose then they will be bullhead minnows. Adult mature bullhead minnows will often have a dark spot at the front base of the dorsal fin.

Bullhead minnows have a more rounded snout than fatheads. Lateral line is hard for the casual observer to see, but fatheads have a incomplete lateral line that ends 2/3 the way back toward the tail whereas bullhead and bluntnose minnows have a compete lateral line. Get a few good side close-up pictures of the fresh dead minnows and I could hopefully help verify the ID.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 05/10/20 10:45 AM.

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Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #520822 05/10/20 01:49 PM
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Thank you Bill. I collected some with my kids and we put them in James' aquarium. They have very pronounced lateral lines from head to tail with a prominent spot right before the caudal fin begins. Unfortunately, it was a couple of weeks ago when I spotted the dead adult but I will take a photo and post in this comment soon. The example will be an immature fish. At this point, based on your comments I am leaning toward bullhead due to the prominent stripe running the length of the body. The adult also possessed this as well but it was larger than bullheads are supposed to get. If it is a bluntnose, it is outside the range according to NAS.

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Re: Abyssal's guide to alternative forage fish
saint_abyssal #520831 05/10/20 08:31 PM
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From your picture that to me looks more like a bullhead minnow than a bluntnose minnow. When you get an adult post a picture of it.


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