Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass......

Nedoc is it Keo Fish Farm where you got your HSB fry?

Just got back from our over winter place and need to make arrangements to get some fish later in the season. As I recall I need to get them ordered for later delivery when they become available.

Not sure if he when he will see this or not. He did get them from there. He started with 1200 of them.

I just talked to Martha at Keo Fish Farm in Keo Arkansas. She said to call about June 1 and get on the list. They do not take orders because she said "it would just get lost in the shuffle".

The HSB are roughly 1.5" in length and can vary from 250 to 400 fish per pound and if I understood right they could put a pound in a shipping container.

So I guess I will put a reminder on my calendar to call then.

Need some advice.

Have my 1/20th acre forage pond that currently has only FHM in it. They were stocked last summer/fall. So should be lots of FHM in it.

Planning on raising HSB in the pond. Tentative plans is to get 250-400 1.5" HSB and raise them up to a large enough size to transfer to other ponds. Will plan on feeding them as well as the FHM population providing food. They will be available some time around June or maybe July according to KEO. Or at least they told me to call back June 1 so that is my assumption.

Since there were only FHM in this pond last year, the snail population has went up significantly. I can get some fingerling RES on April 2. I was thinking of getting just 100 to put in this pond for dual purpose. One to control the snails and two to produce some fingerling RES for my other ponds (probably would be next year for the fingerlings).

Am I expecting too much to put the additional 100 RES in with the HSB, or would they go ok together. I worried about the RES getting big enough to be predatory on the small HSB, but the more I think about the size of both fish in the time period they would be stocked I don't see that as a problem.

Suggestions?

Snrub,

I agree that the HSB wont attain a size to threaten the RES for this growout and I think its a great idea. I'm no expert but I'll throw out some ideas.

In a fertized BOW, 2000 2" BG can attain an average length of 6" in one season in Alabama. I take this reference from Swingle. The stocking plan of 100 RES is at a rate of 2000 RES/ACRE. IMHO, RES would not be able to attain the same length as BG at this stocking rate. I think I would lean toward a smaller number of them. I only say this because it could be that they wouldn't attain enough growth to eat the largest of your snails if there are too many. Ideally, the RES grow large enough to eliminate the snails completely utilizing this resource for growth. Were it me, I would feel more comfortable with number like 40 and I would prefer I think 3-4 inch RES if I could get them. At 40, the stocking rate is 800/ACRE.

If your HSB attain an average length of 5.5 inches, then 400 would weigh in at 30 lbs or 600 lbs/ACRE. I think at 40/ACRE the RES could attain lengths of 7 - 8 inches if starting at 4". At an average length of 7.5 ", they would weigh about 12 lbs or 240 lbs per acre. There will not be many FHM left and so the fish standing weight will be less than 1000 lbs/ACRE at the end of the grow out. No need for aeration unless you just wanted to be safe. Grown to this size, most of them should survive well in your big BOW. Just some ideas to chew on.

Snrub, I really know nothing about growth or how much carrying capacity. I am still interested in getting some of those HSB from ya. I will get you a bag of feed or help with the cost of the fish. I drive by your place quite often (my sister lives close to ya). Maybe you should start a thread of your own about your own grow out adventure.

Thanks for that info.

I was more worried about the RES getting big enough to eat my precious HSB, but after the stats you quote and after also just thinking about it, I decided that was not a problem.

I agree with you on the lower RES stocking. I threw out the 100 number as I am not sure what the minimum is they will sell. I'll have to get these from the route truck and my experience in the past is if you request larger sizes what I got before I think was the runts from the year before or something. The small fish I got at a later time were much better quality. Even if I have to buy 100, I could put just 40 in this pond and put the others in another pond. They likely would become fish food there, but that might be better than over stocking in my target pond.

Thanks for the growth numbers. One thing I am confused about is the late date in the season I will be getting the fish. She said call back first of June so I would say likely it will be mid June or July before I get the HSB. How much will they grow before winter? I worry a little about winter kill as this small pond is only 8' deep in one small spot in the middle of it. My intention would be to go as late as I could in the fall then try to get at least part of the fish out and transfer to other ponds even if they had not grown terribly big. If I could get them up to 6" or so I think they would have at least a decent chance for many to escape predation. Or is that an issue?

My thinking is that as soon as some of the fish reach about 6" start taking some out to make room for the remaining to grow. Get a bunch out by winter then let the remaining over winter in the forage pond. This would kind of hedge my bets. Would have some fish transferred to larger ponds but would be subject to predation. Would have some fish left to get bigger in the forage pond for later stocking but at a higher risk of winter kill.

I do have good aeration in the forage pond. No feeder but when I can't feed got a daughter and grandson nearby that can fill in as needed. Feeder would be nice as it could feed multiple times a day. Guess I could move my dock feeder that feeds my main pond to this pond later in the season when the fish got some size.

I would be happy to share some HSB but I am hesitant to promise anything till I get this all pulled off. If I get the fish in the pond and they start growing, we can talk. There is another PBF pond owner in the area that also might be interested in some.

If I get 250-400 and half of them live, that is still probably more than I need for my own needs so if they do any good at all I should have some to share.

Yes, I probably should add this to my forage pond thread so it is documented over there.

I think you should expect a mid-June delivery based on nedoc's thread. This should be plenty of time to get them to 6". Seems like nedoc's ranged a bit with 6" being the largest and most common of his growout. His experience was what I was working with when suggesting a average length of 5 1/2 inches. Because of the FHM, I think your grow out might produce a little better lengths. I think I would move them this fall as you are planning. You might lose some HSB but I don't think many if they have attained a minimum length of 5.5 in. Just a humble opinion, but I think because HSB spawn at lower temperatures than LMB or CC they will be more active than these predators during the winter and difficult for these predators to capture relative to BG.

Last night after posting, I modified a CC grow-out spreadsheet for your grow-out and I will link it below after posting. It is a feeding plan to reach a goal of 6" by Oct 31. The gray squares are inputs that you can change and it is protected by password to prevent accidental deletion or alteration of the formula fields. I have filled these with data that I think will approximately reflect growth that you would observe. Based on NEDOC's experience, this isn't pie in the sky, he's shown one can grow them to 6" in the first year. The plan estimates that you will need 80 lbs of feed but considering the FHM, I think you might get by on only 70. It would work like this ...

For June / July you need 10 lbs of feed sized optimally for 2 1/4 in HSB. For August you need 10 lbs sized optimally for 3 1/2 in HSB. For the remainder you need one 50 lb bag sized optimally for 5" HSB.

Wow! What a great reply. Thanks so much!

I was thinking of starting with Optimal Starter #4 but maybe need smaller. I use this size to supplement my YOY BG that frequent the shore line of my big pond.

Optimal Starter 4

• Starter #0 is a powder designed for first feeding of very small fry. This line is useful for those who hatch their own fish.
• Starter #1 is a .8mm crumble line for fish that are too big for a powder, yet still under half an inch.
• Starter #2 is a 1.2mm pellet and designed for fish in the 1-2″ range.
• Starter #3 is a 1.8mm pellet and designed for fish in the 2-3″ ranges.
• Starter #4 is a 2.5mm pellet and designed for fish in the 3-4” ranges.

Looks like I should start out with #3, go to #4 then finish with BG Junior.

That would not be a problem with the 50# bags because I could feed the FHM with it also. They usually just get regular feed and peck at it till they eat it all, but when I do have the Starter #4 I feed it. When I run out they get whatever feed I am feeding the big pond. I could start out with the #3 and feed both the HSB and FHM because I know they will be in there eating. Then graduate up while still feeding some of the smaller feed for the FHM till they were wiped out. Feed any extra feed above what the forage pond needs to my YOY BG in my main pond.

I would never hold someone to something like this. As in all pond things "it depends" LOL. I might end up ordering some myself. I just know 250-400 is to many for my puddle. Did they happen to tell you a price?

Twenty five cents each. Cheap enough, they just aren't very big so need some water without predators to eat them for a while.

If you want to cage a few maybe you could get some when I bring them back from me at that time.

what size for $0.25 each and is there a minimum order?

Heck yeah I'm down for that. Give me something to do while we are tryin to stick around home thur this madness. My log would have to be called (The little growout cage). It would be nice to meet someone on here as well.

John, I've found that these very fine particle feeds tend to clump up in summer humidity, even when mixed with larger pellets. Best thrown by hand, or maybe a feeder specially built for them.

OK, I'm just going to put down my thoughts here and hopefully they will be helpful. This is how I would do things if I were you....

1) Frame up a dock section where the end of the dock will get you out to 6 ft of water or deeper, so that you can secure a cage or two to the end of the dock. Build out of green treated lumber. A great place to order dock floats is Home Depot if you have one close by. They will deliver to you or to the store and are more reasonably priced than other places I've dealt with.

2) Purchase a TREATED net with lid from Duluth nets. I'm not sure on net size, but I'm guessing 1/4" would contain them. 4'x4'x4' would seem like more than enough. I've got one on the way so I will let you know what I think of their product. Anyway, call and talk to Bryan Sederberg. He's a great guy to deal with. Tell him you were referred by a pheasant hunter in south central Nebraska. https://duluthfishnets.com/store/assorted-nets/small-mesh-net-pens/

3) I'd order the smallest order of Optimal #2 that you can get from Optimal. I know they have options as small as 10lbs. You'll be amazed how far that goes. Within a couple weeks you will graduate to #4 (they are currently redoing their #3 and don't have any available, or at least not the last time I checked). And then you can grab the larger bags and go from there. Again, Dustin at Optimal is amazing to work with.

4) Purchase a FIAP belt feeder. Personally I'd go with the Belt Feeder Pro version, because it can be taken apart and sanitized better. And it runs about the same price. So there is no reason not to. The only place I've found in the states that sells the Pro version is Aquatic Equipment and Design. They've also been wonderful to work with. These feeders will run around $300 but I promise you will use this extensively over your time as a pondmeister. It gives you so many options for feeding small fish in grow out situations. These fish will take great advantage of being fed all day rather than once or twice per day. The digestive track of small fish need frequent feedings. This does the trick. As they get bigger you can go to hand feeding them and use the belt feeder to grow out other fish. https://www.aquaticed.com/products/fiap-belt-feeders?_pos=1&_sid=caf21a272&_ss=r


Some notes for a conclusion.... if it's like the last two years, you will likely receive your fish around June 20th. From there these things will explode. By Labor Day they will be well over 4" and able to escape predation in larger ponds. I'd continue to feed them through September. Once the water drops below 60 the feeding on floating feed will slow to a halt. But with a belt feeder you can supplement with sinking pellets in small amounts, if you choose not to release in your larger ponds. I would not release the fish into your grow out pond to grow them out. Seining them tends to be difficult and is very hard on the fish. Many times the 'spiking' of each other leads to a fungal infection that will kill the fish off 1-2 weeks later. You can grow way more fish in a cage than you realize. I know you can grow 600 fish to 6" in a 4x4x4 cage. So I would just keep them in the cage until you are ready to release. Although after some growth you may want to put them in a cage with larger mesh so that you get better flow thru of water. I don't really have great advice on that YET, but I'm hoping to learn soon. Bryan from Duluth Nets would have answers for you on that.

Now for the price tag.... Dock $300-400 for a 4x12 dock with a float from Home Depot, Belt Feeder $300, Net $120. Now this may seem a bit high, but I'd suggest figuring that these are items that will get used regularly in growing out fish, whether it be RES, another year of HSB, feed trained SMB, etc. Or in the case of the belt feeder, I'd get in the habit of putting it in your larger pond in the spring and fall and running sinking feed thru it during those times of year that the water is too cold for fish to hit floating pellets. It'd work especially well to supplement your RES growth during those times of year.

I'll try to add to this discussion as more thoughts come to mind and as you guys ask questions. Although I'm not sure my knowledge is all that extensive, I at least have minimal experience in this area.

Wow, I just got through JPs post. Great stuff! Thanks for taking the time to do that.

Your welcome NEDOC and snrub. The spreadsheet was already prepared but for a grow out with a different kind of fish. I did happen to notice that the October sheet had an error in the summed weight of feed. This was originally an oz column and though the daily feed rates are in pounds ... I failed to change that field where they are summed. A person can change it himself by unprotecting the sheet with the password "pondbossforum" and removing the "/16" from the formula in that summed field. I highly recommend protecting the sheet after that just to prevent accidentally messing up formulas.

I'll replace with a corrected file after this post.

About 1.5". They can range from smaller than that to larger. She said they could get 250-400 in a shipping box depending on the size of the fish. That may be a pound of fish but I can't be sure I heard correctly. As I recall with a conversation with Bob Lusk, the way fish are sold is they get a count per pound then the fish farms actually weigh out the fish. Too time consuming to count them individually. So I am assuming you get a measured weight of fish then based on the count per pound you get approximately that many fish. That is some speculation on my part, but that seems like a reasonable efficient wholesale method, unlike when we buy larger fish and they are counted out.

I think they sell only one size. Or at least that was my take from my very short discussion with Martha which if I remember right is co-owner. She gets right to the point and is ready to move on. I don't think any grass grows under her feet and she is not a spring chicken either. I'll link an article to Keo Fish Farm that came out in a farm magazine that explains the operation.

I think they are more in the wholesale business supplying fingerlings to commercial fish growers. Fish farms that buy them either to raise for commercial fillet production or growers who grow them out to a size suitable for pond and lake stocking to sell to us retail people. I guess I'm a little surprised they even bother with such small orders. By the time they take them to the airport for a hundred dollar order it would be hard to make much money I would think (I suppose they deliver multiple orders to the airport at once though). On a small order the over night air freight is likely to cost more than the fish.

In my case, we are two hours away from a major airport and I think it is about 5-6 hours to drive down there. Wife and I enjoy a drive on the way down to that part of Arkansas anyway (some very beautiful senic drives on the way down) so we will just make a 2-3 day trip out of it. Take a couple days going down stopping along the way, get the fish, then make a bee line back to get them in the water. At first I wanted to do it with the motorcycles and we may still do that. But much easier to drive straight through with a car for that distance. My butt and back ain't as tough as it used to be when it comes to riding long distances in one stretch. Plus the weather can make an otherwise pleasant trip into miserable.

If we do take the car (probably) it might be such that anyone within close enough driving distance with me could order some and we could bring them back along with our order, picking them up at our farm.

The bulk of the conversation with her was call back June 1 and we will put you on the list.

This article was written way back in 2003. Keo Fish Farm article in Farm Progress magazine

Great information NEDOC. Thanks for taking the time.

Going to have to think on that about the cage. I was trying to go the lazy way and just dumping them in the forage pond filled with FHM, knowing that I probably would never get them all back out. But I figured I could get maybe a third of them with a cast net over a few weeks time, enough to stock my other ponds. Then just have fun fishing for them as the remaining ones grew larger. I like BG fishing so even fishing for 6-10" ones for me would be fun.

But you have planted a seed in my mind. I'm thinking maybe hedge my bets (in case I screw up something, which is likely) and put half of them in a cage and put the other half in the 1/20th acre forage pond.

I had the pleasure of visiting NEDOC's place a couple years ago and seeing his HSB (and some gigantic RES) first hand. Was a great visit.

Hahaha, I was thinking that caging them was the lazy mans way of going about it.

I'm thinking about putting a cage in the pond like a fence. In the picture the area of the pond would be around 15 across and bout 30 feet long. I think the average depth will b about 2 n half deep. Does this sound like a good idea? I would only need like a Seine net and some post for the cage. Ideas or suggestions?

If you do fence off an area, I would suggest putting fishing string or some protection along the bank and over the top.

My pallets in my forage pond were a perfect perching spot of the green herons to perch on and eat FHM. Be aware if you have concentrated fish and the fishing birds discover it, smorgasbord time.

Raccoons also along the bank portion.

I had a GBH last year that would stand on the dock by the fish feeder. Feeder goes off and it just flops down in the middle of the fish feeding frenzy, gets a fish, and very clumsily takes off in the water with the fish. I did not even know GBH would take fish in open water or could take off in water. But this sure could anyway.

"If you build it, they will come".

I've tried netting off an area of my pond with issues similar to snrub as well as flooding and washing out areas.

Does it change anything that I very rarely get them normaly. I'm not sure if its cause it so close to my house or not. The pond is within prolly 50 feet from are deck I know them birds dont like people. It would prolly meet "my little friend" if thought it found a buffet.