Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Must read: PB article on Genetics & Catchability!

Eric West has a fascinating article on bass genetics and catchability in the new July/August issue of PB magazine.

"Catchability" on artificial lures is a frequent topic here, especially in discussions of Fla LMB vs F1 LMB vs Northern LMB. But Eric cites very recent research that indicates the problem is much deeper. In fact, just by fishing, whether catch & release or keeping, we drive the bass in our BOW toward becoming uncatchable. Worse, the bass pass along this trait to their offspring, along with slower growth.

In time, heavy fishing pressure will cause big problems, even if every fish is released unharmed!

Eric briefly discusses how this problem can be moderated, but it is sobering reading. Hopefully this will be a major topic of discussion at the upcoming meeting in October, I have lots of questions.

PS Did you know that about half of LMB will not bite an artificial lure even before they've ever experienced fishing pressure? Wow!

Thanks for the kind comments but credit should be given to the authors of the studies. They did the work I only reported what they found.

It is an eye-opening concept with much to learn.

Here is a previous PB link for more info

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=35643&Number=466598#Post466598

Eric thank you for writing the article and presenting the information. I have read the article more than once and am still trying to come up with a plan of action to combat this problem. I think this is a problem every pond owner on pond boss has.I can see the first and most obvious solution is to fish less. the other article in this issue "do fish genetics need to be refreshed" has some information that ties in with what you're saying, Eric. Eric what practical ideas do you have for combating this problem?

Any idea if the same thing would happen to SMB? I've been catching and releasing for a few years now.

I think it happens with any fish

Channel cats after they reach two or three pounds in a pond seem to get hook shy even if all caught are kept. I know it doesn't make sense, but....

I have been reading about outbreeding depression. Something I am not so familiar with. If I am reading this correctly breeding northern feed trained bass with Florida bass may not be a good idea? this is something I have been doing has this been a mistake? I have a lot more questions than answers

I think it was Dr Neal who also brought up inbreeding genetic issues, as most LMB stocked come from a rather narrow gene pool. Interesting that the proposed solution is similar to what Eric West recommended: Introducing new genetics every so often.

Other than just not fishing (at least, for bass -- I suspect BG are less subject to catchability problems, as their sheer numbers & competition for food offset this tendency), what can be done?

A few amateurish ideas to play around with...

1) Start with more fish that will bite an artificial lure. That means fish stockers breed not only for health & growth rates, but also aggression toward lures. Possibly this could be tested by using hookless lures (so no negative experience!) & selecting fish that respond aggressively. These fish can be used to revitalize genetics in older ponds, too.

2) Okay, now we have lots of LMB that will hit an artificial, but that leaves lots that won't. Shy LMB are worthless. Or are they?

Let's suppose you have a BOW which is heavily fished. All bass of any size are immediately taken out, resulting in serious imbalances. You need bass that can control other fish, but they get caught before they can do the job.

Possible solution: Put in the Uncatchables. They will survive to control other fish, because they don't get caught. Possible?

3) Actually reward fish for striking hookless lures, perhaps with a nice dead shad. Feed training for artificials? Why not?

Okay, enough with amateur hour. The pros will hopefully be here soon to set me straight!

I agree.

Yes other studies show to a certain degree that most pond fish are subject to the same problems. All species have not been studied as far as I can tell however. There are IMO no expert answers only ideas to look into. There is disagreement as to whether outbreeding depression exists in Fla/Northern (F-1 , Fx) LMB in their natural integrate zone or similar climate areas. IMO nothing shows that outbreeding depression exists in those areas. I have not seen or heard of a single incident being reported. Fla and Northerns are so close genetically (not like crossing 2 distinct species like GSF and BG) that it may not apply at all. I will find the thread link on this.

Genetic rescue is a very interesting subject without a lot of available data for fish. The concept has been used by fisheries managers for a long time.

Original thread -- http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=58265&page=1

Phillip study 2010 -- http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post159224



Catachibility search - http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=dosearch&topic=0&Searchpage=1

LMB outbreeding depression thread. Neal , West , Gallus , Overton and others.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=185000&page=1

Admixture Analysis of Florida Largemouth Bass and

Northern Largemouth Bass using Microsatellite Loci

DIJAR J. LUTZ-CARRILLO*

CHRIS C. NICE, TIMOTHY H. BONNER, AND MICHAEL R. J. FORSTN

LORAINE T. FRIES



Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 135:779–791, 2006


Copyright by the American Fisheries Society 2006



We found no evidence of a heterotic effect (in terms

of size) resulting from first-generation crosses between

Florida largemouth bass and northern largemouth bass.

The majority of trophy-sized fish with an admixed

genome were later-generation hybrids with a larger

percentage of Florida largemouth bass alleles. There

was also no observable negative impact on size from

the admixed genetic background in these fish, most

likely because of the modified environment to which

they were introduced and the nonadaptive radiation of

micropterids (Near et al. 2003).

Eric,
What about larger ponds, have they been studied? Would I expect to have these problems in a pond our size?

It was a great read and it offered things to think about.

I wore out a few lures in my dad's 9.9 acre pond, I can tell you that some lures are easier to wear out than others.

Brian I will double check but I think both the study lakes were as big as your lake.

2 studies - Genetic Rescue pond 20 acres with fish from 2 lakes of about 300 acres.
Fishing study fish from larger ponds/lakes of bigger than 100 acres into a small holding pond that was fished about 1 acre.

Eric what assumptions are you making from this as far as a stocking program or a genetic rescue program

See PM.

Eric, that is some interesting data for sure, and It certainly makes me feel much better about our long term program. I'm glad new genetics are not referenced as just a "size thing".

Am I right to think that the research was done using artificial lures as the criteria for catchability?

Eric discussed this study a long time ago at the first PB get together at D/FW Airport. I still find it fascinating that some fish are genetically wired to not fall for baits with strings attached.

Yes Al the fishing was by rod with artificials.

Dave is right we started talking about catchability as far back as 2005 and others did even before that.