Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Top Tips for New Small Pond

Last Fall We rebuilt an 80 year old 1/3 acre pond on our North Texas ranch near Bridgeport that had silted in badly but always held water. It was drained, reshaped and taken back to its original 15' depth. Since then with the good rains we've had, it is about 80% full now. Our goal is to have a good place for kids and visitors to catch some fish for fun and supply a few fish fry's each year. My current thought is to stock CC, CNBG, and FHM to start and add a feeder. Dunns delivers pick up stockers to our local feed store in April

I would love to know your veteran top tips as we take the next step to stock and manage going forward.

Thanks in Advance,
John

As is often pointed out, I'm not familiar with Texas waters. Up here, I would be leery of the CC being able to curtail BG recruitment of a magnitude necessary to prevent stunting. Especially when feeding, and possibly harvesting the top tier class of bluegills?

In another thread running right now, Bill Cody mentions he has seen it done, but long term results are not currently known.

Cody Note: I would not bet any money for CC controlling BG from overpopulating. Predation IMO would be best if you added either HSB or LMB especially if pellets are fed to the fish. You can always remove high numbers of bass each year if desired.

Tony is right. I don't know that cats could keep up with BG spawning in our area.

If it were me, and it's not, I would consider fatheads, hybrid bluegills with about 20% redears and hybrid stripers.

OK so from what I'm hearing I should add some LMB or HSB at some point after the initial stocking to knock back the CNBG numbers, what is a good time to wait? Also consider mixing in some redears. Can I mix in a few Blue Cats for fun as well?

I would wait until the first hatchling CNBG appear or the BG are on the nest to add fingerling predators. Generally you want the stocked predators at least 3X longer than the smallest forage fish (young of year). So if you wait until the 1st hatch is 1.5"-2" long then you will need 6"-8" bass.

If you add blue cats into a 1/3 ac pond generally the only one having fun will be the blue cats. Blue cats are more of a predator and grow faster than CC. Blue cats are known to patrol the entire water column at night. No fish in the pond able to fit in the blue cat mouth is safe. Harvest them small and never catch and release them or you could have a big predator that you can't get out eating everything and upsetting the entire balance of the pond. You may even have to start over with fish from the beginning. It is your pond, read up on blue catfish here. Generally they are not well suited for small ponds. Stock them and report the results over the next several years. We are curious.

Bob Lusk had an article about blue cats in ponds. Check out the Mar-Apr 2012 back issue that had several articles about catfish.
BLUE CATFISH. Lusk explains all about blue catfish, growth rates and what it takes to raise them in a pond.
http://www.pondboss.com/back_issues.asp?p=2
Call for back issue 1-800-687-6075.
Here is what is in the entire issue:
MAR - APR 2012. Key: Floating islands reduce nutrients, Blue catfish basics, Bacteria affect nitrogen and phosphorus, Channel catfish foods, Water turbidity, Catfish fishing lessons, Agriculture and wildlife, Types of catfish bullheads, Catfish myths, Purple martins, Build a catfish pond, How to catch catfish, Types of catfish, Pond master plan, Catfish interaction with other species.


Eds Desk – REFLECTIONS IN THE WATER. Memories of getting started in fisheries and meeting Ray Murski and how he helped Bob.

Letters and e-mails. A. Magazine’s soy ink has an odor. B. Leo Pachner inquiry. C. Questions for kids section, D. Features for a clear water pond with yellow perch in Shepard MT. E. Inmate donates for past subscriptions. F. Plant cover for water and banks . G. Cover structure idea. H. Green sunfish problem in new stocking. I. Request for free issue. J. Crappie & bluegill pond. K. Circle hook good. L. Walleye in TX pond? M. Bluegill ID questions and biology. N. Bass help for high school student. O. Late issue. P. Back issues helpful for new pond owner. Q. Catfish only pond and catching them on crickets.

FROM POND TO PLATE CONNIE’S COME BACK FOR SECONDS CATFISH. Special breaded catfish chunks that are bakes and delicious.

1. TRADING NUTRIENTS FOR FISH. Using Floating Islands Moving Water and Microbes. Bruce Kania tells about turning excess nutrients into fish using floating islands. Discusses yellow perch harvest.

2.. BLUE CATFISH. Lusk explains all about blue catfish growth rates and what it takes to raise them in a pond.

3. BACTERIA ALGAE ….WHAT’S THE FUSS ABOUT? Kevin Ripp explains some basics of natural nitrogen and phosphorous removal in ponds and the role bacteria play in pond balance .

4. CHANNEL CATFISH: PICKY TEENAGERS OR OPPORTUNISTIC GENERALISTS. Tanner Stevens & Brian Graeb look in depth at diets of channel catfish. Discuss competition factor with bluegills.

5. SOME CLARITY ON TURBIDITY. Corutney Rickett & Matt Rayl explain differences between water color, clarity, and turbidity. Why and how to measure them.

6. THE FISH FRY. Beth Lahaie tells how she learned some smelly lessons to fish for catfish.

7. AQUACULTURE & THE FUTURE OF WILDLIFE. Van Schaik explains how world economy and farming trends are affecting land use and wildlife..

8. ARE THEY BULLHEADS OR CATFISH? Cornwell tells us about the differences between bullheads, madtoms, and catfish. How to tell all of them apart, some of their habits and where to find them .

9. MYTHS AND MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT CATFISH. Lusk provides good info about growing catfish, catching them, how they feed, explains a few catfish myths, spawning habits, stocking numbers and sizes, flavor of fillets.

10. TIPS FOR PURPLE MARTINS SUCCESS .Birdman Toellner provides lots of good information about purple martins – attracting, housing, poles, location, maps for arrival times, nesting times,

11. BUILDING A CATFISH POND FOR FUN AND FOOD. Otto tells us how to look beyond the water line to plan for future in building a catfish pond – soils, needed homework, size, design, habitat, harvest options, recreational and meat ponds. .

12. THE OLE CATFISH HOLE. Brad Wiegmann gives suggestions of where and how to catch catfish in ponds. Seasnal variations, equipment, bait recipes, holding fish and removing hooks.

13. CATFISH ARE DIFFERENT .Lusk describes habits and sizes of bullheads, channels, white catfish, blues, and flatheads.

14. SO I WANT A POND TO RETIRE. Part I. Brian Hoffman tells how he bought some land, made a master plan, planted trees, selected home site, built a small pond, repaired a misfit cabin, and planned for a larger pond.

15. CATFISH NUGGETS. West summarizes three catfish articles: Harvest of catfish in various sized waters, Gape and predation of flatheads, Interaction of catfish with other pond species.

Thx Bill,
that is real clear on timing, I will hold off on the blue cat (Pond Jaws) idea.
Would you guys recommend LMB over HSB or mix of both? not real familar with HSB in a pond

John

First off congrat's. My top tip from the northern region....small ponds are wonderful. Enjoy the process and no matter what you do or don't do, it's all fun. If something does happen that you don't like (and it's going to happen sooner or later), starting over is relatively easy and not the end of the world.

I didn't understand it fully when someone very wise on this forum once stated, "Your not a fish farmer until you have killed 10,000 fish". Relax and keep it simple. My two cents FWIW

Others from TX should provide opinions and options for southern conditions. George1 is good for his TX fish stocking ideas. Keep in mind the pond goals here.

Can you get one or both LMbass-HSB in the fall after the minnows and BG have spawned? Timing of predators is sometimes important to getting the fish off to the best start.

If you are not interested in growing large big ol'bass, you could add fingerling bass this spring along with the other fish, if and only if, Dunn's have some BG big enough such as 4"-5" to spawn soon. You would not need very many just enough to create several BG nests and several batches of hatchling BG. If all they have is fingerling BG (1"-3")then IMO add minnows and fingerling BG now and in fall add CC and LMB-HSB or add these predators next spring. If bass are added in now (April) increase the number of FHM to double or triple. I see on Dunn's website they do not have HSB. IMO it would be best if for great bass growing the LMB were pellet trained, but I doubt they have them.

A good starting LMB-HSB general fishing for kids would be an 8:3 ratio so for example a 1/3 ac 24LMB:9HSB. None of my numbers are 'cast in stone' just suggested starting numbers. HSB will mostly be eating lots of pellets instead of fish. Often for growing big bass fast,,,, the number of bass stocked per acre is low compared to the standard guidelines. Low is 40-50bass per acre, high is 100 very high is 200 bass per acre(Dunns).

For kids fishing in 1/3 acre with pellet feeding consider hybrid bluegill as an option with or without CNBG. There are Pros and cons of using hybrids. Hopefully others will testify.

Verify your fish stocking plan and numbers here before going to the fish truck, because fish truck people often try and sell you more than you need since their job is to sell fish not necessarily make your pond the best it can be for your specific goals.

http://www.dunnsfishfarm.com/fish_pricing.htm
Dunn's stocking ideas
http://www.dunnsfishfarm.com/stock_rate.htm

John, I would seldom, maybe never, recommend LMB for a 1/3 acre Texas pond unless it is stocked and managed for big bluegills. Think in terms of balance between the predator and prey.

The average Texas pond is what we call bass heavy. Those suckers are spawning machines and within a couple of years pretty well eliminate the forage base. You wind up with a couple of 3 to 4 pound fish and a pond full of stunted, skinny, runt bass. But for a time you will have some bigger than usual bluegills. And, it doesn't just happen part of the time but every time.

Also you have to remember that a 1/3 acre pond can become 1/4 or less in a heckuva hurry here. Stock like it's a 1/4 acre.

If you stock BG and Catfish, cats can't keep up with BG spawning numbers. Then you run a pretty good chance of WAY too many bluegills with a DO(dissolved oxygen) crash resulting. We have what is called a rolling spawn on bluegills here. They keep spitting out eggs from April through September. I've been here and done that and have seen it a lot of times. They essentially foul the water with their waste resulting in a fish kill.

That's why, for anything less than an acre or more, I recommend fish with no or limited spawning like a hybrid bluegill and hybrid stripers. Set up a feeder and they will work out pretty well. Add some redears to the mix to eliminate parasitic flukes from mussels.

It's like raising cattle and balancing the cows and grass. Try carrying over cows without selling them off and they clobber the grass forage base. The best rancher is a grass farmer because he knows what happens when the sun bakes the bare ground. This is another thing I found out the hard way.

Another one is the never ending, symbiotic, relationship between coyotes and rabbits. Kill off the coyotes and you wind up with too many rabbits for the vegetation. This results in a boom in coyote pup survival until they eat the rabbits down to the critical point and pups starve. These guys go through never ending boom and bust cycles.

Don't let fish sellers define your stocking and managing strategy. Their job is to convert their fish into your money.

Great idea that DD1 has. HSB and HBG are both pellet eaters, good growers, and have limited or no spawning. HBG will be the limited spawners. HSB can be added or removed based on how much predation is needed. As the HBG are removed as guests to dinner, replace their numbers with 4"-6" sizes so your HSB don't eat the stockers. Dunn's do have 4"-5" HBG with limited availability. Replacement HBG can be easily hauled in oxygen filled bags many miles.

If the offspring of HBG gets too numerous it won't take much effort to trap out some 'youngins' and catch a few smarter ones when they are 4"-5" long which will not take long when they are eating pellets and growing like teenagers. It is best to not allow offspring of HBG to continually reproduce and back cross. Don't do a lot of catch and release of the HSB because they get hook smart fast. Although big smart HSB are there to not get caught and crop 4" HBG. I say give DD1's idea a try and if you don't like it,,, the fishery can be converted to CNBG and LMB by just adding those two species. Then they will reproduce to dominate the pond.

Read all about HBG here:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=256325#Post256325


Any suggested numbers from the Forum membership of HBG and HSB to stock for pellet feeding in a small TX pond? IMO HBG and HSB could be stocked together since they will right away start growing on pellets. Turn your 1/3 acre into a fish growing farm where the animals are fed and invited as dinner guests.

I'll take a stab at it. I would go with 200 HBG, and 15-20 HSB. Both species are fairly easy to adjust, numbers wise, down the road. Keep track of what is removed, as well as monitoring growth rates, and add or subtract fish accordingly.

Ideally, I would like to see supplemental fish added every year or two, depending upon harvest numbers. My idea of balance in this case, would be to try and ensure different size classes/ages of fish are continually moving through the management program.


Edit: My thoughts tend to run towards maximizing HBG growth. If the pond will be fished/harvested regularly, you could probably bump those numbers. I might also add some RES into the fray.

Watch for water quality issues, and excessive vegetation.

Thx DD1 and Bill,
That gives me a lot to think about before pulling the trigger. Being one of those fly fishing snob/low fence hunting/back to nature purist types, anything with hybrid in it's name usually gives me the willies. But the reality of your small pond advice hits home and I appreciate it. If I go with the HBG+HSB approach I assume that means that my fish will need to be largely pellet fed, right? I guess some FHM could be added but they would get gobbled up quick. Would love to get the groups thoughts on numbers to start with.

John

OK John, you finally pulled my string......
I have stayed out of this “small pond” thread for two reasons, but first let me welcome you to PB!
The first and main reason, this is Dave Davidson’s home territory and knows the pain and perils of drought and fish kills much more than I do from my privileged location in N.E. Texas.

The second reason - I don’t trust fish trucks showing up at local feed stores. I have heard good and bad reports on your supplier but I would NEVER buy fish without knowing quality and how long they have been on the truck.

We have a lot in common – I love small ponds and have much experience managing them with HSB controlling CNBG overpopulation, but you need a fresh start with a new pond, which you have, with NO structure or cover. I am also a long time fly fisherman but not a snob – you would likely shiver when you take a look at the fly fishing section at the kind of stuff I tie.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=362926#Post362926

Having no structure or cover will make the CNBG vulnerable to predation from the HSB, and the ones surviving predation by getting too large for gape of mouths, will provide trophy size Gills.

I would stock FHM and CNBG as early as possible and feed heavely, then in fall stock ~6 inch HSB in large numbers.
Stop feeding at this time and the HSB will become forage trained.

Second year resume feeding.
If pond becomes forage heavy in later year, stock ONE female LMB.....and if CNBG in following years ONE Blue cat will be a bonus.

The best CNBG gentics in this part of the country are available from Overton Fisheries in Buffalo Texas as well as HSB – yeah I know that’s a long way from Bridgeport, but worth the trip for a world class fly fishing pond...that is if the drought don’t getcha – do you have a well?
http://www.overtonfisheries.com/StockerFish/SportFish/HybridStripedBass/tabid/229/Default.aspx

Just checked the radar and looks like we are about to get some good rain – hope you are getting your share as well!

Best of luck,
George Glazener

Thx George,
That seems like a great plan. This forum is great to get all the facts and options to consider, appreciate all the help. Will keep you informed of the results,
thx John

If John decides to use CNBG or HBG does that make a difference in how many he stocks? Will it take more predators in his 1/3-1/4ac to control the CNBG compared to if he uses HBG?????? The big question to help John is, when does he know or recognize that he has too many offspring???? Give him your knowledge & experience.

Whether you use CNBG or HBG you will need to feed the fish to get the best growth rates. Pellet size may make a difference as to how many pellets the HSB eat compared to a diet comprised primarily or solely of small fish. IMO The larger the pellet you feed the more likely I think the HSB will eat and depend on pellets. IMO the smaller the pellet the more time & effort it will take the HSB to gather a belly full of pellets which will give the panfish time to get enough of the food for adequate growth. Others may have opinions/advice on this topic?.

PS: I am like George1 not an advocate of fish trucks. Watch for species contamination of what you buy which is prevalent in fish truck sales. If you place a high value on your pond a trip to a reputable fish farm such as Overton's would be worthwhile.

Thx Bill,
I'm leaning to CNBG+FHM with HSB later option, I'll add HSB over time as I see how things balance out, I like the idea of one Female LMB and one Blue cat to add to the fun and legend.

I've never stocked before, can some one fill me in or point me to the article/forum on how best to pick up and transport fish (how far can you go?)for a small pond with big aspirations?

John

John,

I did my first pond stock last weekend. Picked the fish up and drove another hour and a half with them in the bags. I was a little afraid that might be too long for them to ride, but I didn't have any dead ones when I got to my destination.

The supplier will provide the bags you transport them in. (Unless you are buying 8"+ fish, then you have to bring your own.) When I buy more next weekend, I'm probably going to bring a large cooler to set the bags in, instead of piling them in the back seat of my truck this time.

The two "local" suppliers I know of are Dunn's and StockMyPond.

If anyone knows of others, please post them.

-Brad

Edit, I was browsing the stockmypond web page. Interesting page.

I noticed this quote about Redear (they called them Redear Bream)

Redear Bream
Redear can grow larger than bluegill. They prefer to eat crustaceans, snails and other hard shelled insects.

The species is usually found near the bottom in warm water with little current and abundant aquatic vegetation.

Redear spawn once a year, before bluegill spawn.

Pond meisters? Do RES grow larger than bluegill? Also, I hadn't read on this forum that RES spawn prior to bluegill, true only in the south or also typically in the north as well?

Ultimate size potential belongs to the RES. As far as spawning before bluegills, ours will, but only by 2-3 days. We commonly have BG and RES spawning simultaneously.

Redears have the potential to grow really big. BIG big.

http://bassblaster.bassgold.com/first-a-rig-record-huge-spot-catch-deets-giant-redear

That redear was reported at almost 6lbs.

canyon - if you use RES you will have very little survival success in MI unless you use RES from cold water adapted local MI lakes. You will have to do your homework to find the lakes in MI with RES and go catch some off the spawning beds. Maybe check with the local bait shops of those lakes to find out who the local RES anglers are. Then contact them and they may "collect" some for you for a price each assuming the fish are kept lively.
See this for historical stocking of RES in MI and likely places to find RES. See DNR Table 1. One of the lakes in your county may even have a RES population.
http://www.michigandnr.com/publications/pdfs/ifr/ifrlibra/technical/reports/2003-3tr.pdf

We get fall spawns of RES in NE sometimes...our BG spawn multiple times annually, sometimes as late as Sept or Oct if temps cooperate.