Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Same old question.

Alright guys it's gonna sound like the same old question, but with a twist...(I think)

First off I've been lurking for a few months now since i acquired my new land with a few ponds. The "big" pond which id about 85 yards long and 50 yards wide (I'm not sure how that translates to acreage) was stocked about 4 years ago and then no-one really fished it.

I have started fishing it. I was just using a simple crappie type jig. Every single cast yielded a fish. probably 7 out of 10 were BG 1 out of 10 Black Crappie and another 2 out of 10 (maybe 3 out of ten) were LMB in the 8" to 12" range and weighing about a pound (skinny).

Now at first after reading the forum I figured the bass were just stunted and I need to start culling, the question is why am I catching so many BG of all different sizes if the LMB are stunted? Shouldn't the BG be underpopulated?

What I'm seeing is an overabundance of BG 3" to 8" and 8" to 12" LMB with a few crappie sprinkled in. What do you guys think. And thank you for the help ahead of time. This forum has been awesome so far.

an overabundance of BG 3" to 8" - that is 90% of the seeable size range for BG. 10-12 in LMB eat 2.5-4 inch BG.

Can you do a seine survey?

I'm a newby at fish management so this is as much of a question as an attempt at an answer, but could it be that the pond has reached biomass capacity and all species need to be thinned? In other words, just too many fish, period? Maybe the balance is ok, but just too many fish.

Maybe it just needs fished and some fish removed so the remaining have the resources (oxygen, etc) to grow?

That would be kind of a lucky problem to have, if that is what it is.

The pond is a little over an acre.

Get rid of the crappie.

Thanks for the replies guys. I can do a seine survey it will just be a few days.

I'm definitely pulling every crappie I catch out, now I just can't decide if I should be pulling every fish I catch or just one of the other species...

I should also add I got to fish it just a little last summer and I took about 100 miscellaneous fish out of all different species, and I am pretty sure I've seen a slight increase in LMB size from that.

Alright guys weekend is almost here. I'm leaning towards culling everything I catch for awhile. What do y'all think?

Get a digital scale, a ruler, a plastic shopping bag, pencil and notepad. Download the relative weight chart for the appropriate fish species that is in the archives. Catch, weigh and write down the relative weight of the fish that you catch. Any fish under 95% relative weight remove. Report back here with your findings on Monday. We'll be waiting!!

I would go back to the idea of a fish survey via seine, traps, and fishing different methods. Spend the time doing that and keep good records. Hard for anyone to suggest more without a track record and good samples. If you cull everything, you might be upset later to find out the recommendations are something opposite of what you did, thus further in the hole.


Edit- esshup types fast

8 fingers and at least one thumb.

Ok it's aways been said if you want large BG you want a lot of 12 inch bass in your pond... So if all you have is a ton of 12 inch bass and it was stocked 4 years ago... You should have some NICE BG in there or somethings not right?

Here is a tip I got from DD1 take one of those 2 or 3 inch BG and put it on a hook with a bobber and see what eats it! Maybe you will catch a larger bass. Then record that RW and see if it's near 100 percent. I would bass fish for the day and take RW's of all of them how ever you catch them is up to you but RW everone of them and see where you stand. If almost every one is under RW then you need to start taking some of the bass out to get them back up to 95 percent or more RW. They all seem quite hungry if your catching them that fast!

RC

Sounds like either your current assessment is biased or your bluegill have slow growth from a different factor. Also, with bluegill having such a large size range you could have consistent good year classes to big for the bass population to take down and excellent growth allowing fish to grow past predation quickly. Finding out a better representation of your average size might be a good first step.

But wouldn't it depend on goals? If he wants a trophy BG pond, then I would assume he should remove all LMB over 12" regardless of RW. Can't hurt to remove any fish under RW, but there might need to be a slot limit to focus on too??? We need more info.....

Yeah fish your are correct. Thanks for that. I did not mention as Mr. Cody would say "It All Depends" on what you want out of the pond. Maybe the BC are the X factor here messing everything up??? Maybe you got some large CC in the pond and you don't know it???

Fish is right we do need more info. Hence the reason why ewest asked if you could do a seine on the pond that would bring a lot of things to light!

RC

Wow, thanks for all the replies guys. After doing a ton of research I've realized I didn't give y'all a lot to go on, sorry about that.

I've got the fiance talked into going with me to do RW calculations while I fish. I'll have A LOT more information for y'all soon. You guys are absolutely right my initial assessment could be a little off we will see after I get some real findings written down.

I finally got a small sampling of what I'm catching out of the pond. This is a few hours of fishing and I only weighed and measured the ones that were a decent size. The ones that didn't get weighted were a few BG that were able to bite the larger hook. I caught everything on an in-line spinner or texas rigged worm.

I'm not positive that these are just BG I caught a few that had small mouths and a few large ones with really large mouths. The small bass can be seen at all hours of the day in the shallows jumping out of the water feeding on insects that have fallen in the wate I assume.

So, I leave it to the experts what do you think this pond needs to thrive. I want bigger fish. The forage seems to be there as I can see tons of 1" to 3" fish swimming in the shallows. Why aren't these LMB growing with tons of forage base?

Your Bluegill is actually a Hybrid Bluegill.

The other 2 are correct.

See here for tips on ID.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92482#Post92482

Your chart shows that too many hogs are feeding at the trough.

Where are you in OK? The Southern part can take different management techniques from the Northern.

I would eliminate all crappie and all under size bass.

I'm in the pauls valley, Purcell area south central ish OK.

Even though I can see tons of footage swimming around I should start removing predators? That's what I was thinking but I wanted to ask y'all first.

Yes, you should. Your LMB are failing to thrive. They need food that is 1/4 to 1/3 their body size. It's a matter of calories received vs energy expended. Catch and release works on public lakes but not in enclosed ecosystems like a private pond. The culling/management of bass in a one acre pond never stops.

The crappie could be putting undue pressure on the size of forage that the LMB need. They spawn earlier than bass, have a hinged jaw like a bass and put a lot of pressure on the bass and the forage base when they emerge. They also spawn erratically so can't be depended on for management. Lusk tells about a 70 or so acre private lake in NE Texas. It was over loaded with small crappie. When analyzed, there were a lot of 7 year old, 4 inch crappie, with not enough predators to control them. They were no doubt eating the young of year predators. In other words, a typical out of balance ecosystem.

You need a max of 100 lbs of predators per acre. OK, what is really a predator? A large BG that eats a fingerling bass can be considered a predator but this thought kinda skews the concept.

Don't feel bad about this. Your situation is very typical in an unmanaged pond.

Clobber the crappie, reduce bass until the RW is back in control.

DD1 is right you have to small of a pound for whats going on in it. Think about it for a second. If your size pond your really only suppose to have 1 pedator fish. Well you really have like 2 and a half!!

LMB and crappie for the most part are starving each other out! You may have a lot of tiny minniows in the shallow but tiny minnows dont put weight on LMB once they get to be a certain size!

Then you have all these crappie eating as much as they can in the 1 to 3 inch range so now your LMB are running all over the place trying to catch a fish that isn't going to put any weight on them at all because they had to expend toooooo much energy just to get this litte tiny minnow... but wait theres more!!

Now you got Hybrid BG which are very aggressive and eat what they want also and trust me them hybrids with that big mouth will eat a lot of minnows!

Plus hybrid BG don't spawn near as much as regular BG therefore they can't keep up a decent food chain for the LMB and crappie.

Like DD1 said you need to get rid of ALL the crappie and smaller bass. I would also start getting rid of some of them hybrid BG and replace them with CNBG or regualr BG and watch your pond grow!!!

Here read this, it may clear things up a little.

Hybrid Bluegill
The Hybrid Bluegill is a cross between a Male Bluegill and a Female Green Sunfish, and is sometimes referred to as a Hybrid Sunfish. As a result of the cross the Hybrid Bluegill is ~80-90% male, giving it a reduced reproductive potential and making it an ideal choice for those ponds prone to Bluegill stunting. Also, when Hybrid Bluegill reproduce in a pond their offspring is generally not very successful or desirable, which makes it necessary to restock occasionally. When you stock Hybrid Bluegill, you also have to stock a supplemental forage species for the Largemouth Bass, like the Fathead Minnow or Golden Shiner. In a perfect situation, the minnows or shiners will reproduce and provide feed for the bass. However, the establishment of a forage species can be difficult because Hybrid Bluegill readily consume minnow & shiner fry as they hatch and Largemouth Bass readily consume the adults.

Because of the above limitations, we only recommend stocking Hybrid Bluegill in certain situations. Primarily, the pond owner must be willing to restock Hybrid Bluegill, minnows and/or shiners on a regular basis. The amount of fish to restock and the frequency varies with the initial fish population, fishing pressure and amount of cover. Generally, we recommend restocking 30-50% of the Hybrid Bluegill every 3 years, plus replace the amount harvested annually. For the minnows and shiners, 25-50 pounds per acre on an annual or biannual basis is usually adequate. You can tell if minnows need to be restocked by walking the banks on a warm day. If you see minnows but few, if any bass, then you are ok. However, if you see packs of Bass swimming the shoreline and no minnows, then it’s time to restock.

Bluegill
As most people know, because of their strong reproductive potential the Bluegill has a tendency to overpopulate in ponds. Most ponds have a limited amount of food available for Bluegill, and as a result the more fish you have, the less that they will grow. In other words, if you have 1,000 Bluegill in a 1-acre pond they will grow at a certain rate. But if you have 10,000 Bluegill in that same pond they will grow 10 times slower, which is the cause of stunting.

In an unmanaged small pond Bluegill almost inevitably stunt. They get to a size that is too large for the Bass to eat and too small for the fisherman to keep, and then you have a problem. In order to prevent this from happening there are 4 things you must do:

1. Maintain a strong population of predators to keep the Bluegill in check. Many people believe that introducing a couple Northern Pike is the solution to this problem, but they can actually make things worse. Large predators, like the Northern Pike or Muskellunge, eat the size of fish that you want to catch - not the size that you want to eliminate. Also, they prefer to feed on long tubular shaped fish like the Largemouth Bass instead of difficult to swallow Pan Fish, like the Bluegill. This can actually make the Bluegill stunting problem worse because Largemouth Bass are the main predator of small Bluegills. We usually recommend maintaining about 100 Largemouth Bass per surface acre to help control Bluegill.

2. Manage the fish population by harvesting the most abundant size class of the most abundant fish. If the pond has many 3-5” Bluegill and few Bass, then spend some time removing the 3-5” Bluegill. However, if the pond is loaded with Bass under a pound, and Bluegill are sparse, then harvest some Bass. This may sound like common sense advice, but many people are under the impression catch & release fishing is always best. If done properly, catch & keep fishing can be a powerful management tool.

3. Do not let aquatic weeds or algae get too thick. Most weeds are actually quite beneficial for ponds because they filter the water, stabilize bottom sediment, and provide tremendous fish habitat. However, certain types of weeds can grow to be exceptionally thick in the summer giving small Bluegill too many hiding places from the Largemouth Bass. In the case of exotic nuisance weeds like Curly-leaf Pondweed or Eurasian Watermilfoil we recommend complete elimination followed by replanting with native species. However, with native Pondweed species, Coontail, Elodea and many others, spot treatment with proper chemicals or partial harvesting with weed rakes can be very beneficial.

4. Do not harvest the largest Bluegill in the pond. Having large male Bluegill present inhibits the sexual maturation of other Bluegills. Immature Bluegills grow much faster than mature Bluegills because all their energy is going towards growth, and not to the production of reproductive organs. So, if the Bluegill in the pond are kept from becoming sexually mature, they will grow faster. Plus, there will be less reproduction, which will reduce the overall number of Bluegill and thereby increase growth rates because more food is available per fish.

When the above steps are taken, Bluegill can have tremendous growth rates, and provide many meals for the fisherman.

As if what I posted above was not enough here is Here is something else.

1. Get on youtube or pondboss.com and watch Bob Lusks videos! They will help you big time! You can't just watch them though you have to put some of his advice into action. Just some of it will help your pond! I have watced a lot of them and there are several things I have done from them videos that has made my pond go from zero to hero in just 4 years!! Here are few things he says that will greatly help your pond!

1. BG/CNBG are the backbone for feeding your LMB! Notice he doesn't say hybrid blugill or any other fish. Minnows and stuff are fine but you GOT to have BG.

2. Air in your pond! I know this is subject to weather you can do it or not but if you can it should be done. Enough said!

3. Habitat Highway! Wow did not realize how important this one was!! I do now though!!

4. A feeding program! Once again I know this is subject to money and what you can or can't do at the pond but if you can this needs to be done!

Now all of these are important keys to good pond! But if I had to choose 2 of them right now. 1 and 3 would be my first 2 choices! Then 2 then 4. I can't tell you how important 1 and 3 are man. Specially if you want larger bass in your pond! And some sweet BG!!!

RC

Awesome advice thanks so much. The picture of what's happening in my pond is a lot clearer now. I'm going to get some major work in this week and hopefully get this pond on the right track!

Hey Oki no problem I too had the exact same problem you have now 4 years ago. I had 11 inch LMB and GSF and that was it. Heck i didn't even have hybrid BG all I had was regular old GSF.... (sorry JHAP) I took the advice of folks here and watched Bob's video's and now 4 years later,

I have 17 to 18 inch LMB and just last weekend I caught my biggest CNBG to date right at 11 inches.

Just remember it takes time, notice I said 4 years! Not 4 months!!

Hey Good Luck and keep us posted as to how it's going.
RC