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OP
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With an abundance of forage and low stocking rates, what you expect out of "normal/native" LMB as far as weight? I'd love to create the opportunity for my family and friends to catch great bass out of our pond and I fully expected an investment with this, but wow! CB are a fortune. What's the comparison? Thanks!
A bad day fishing is better than the best day at work!
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Bump....
I sure hope somebody can help you out with a comparison.
This is a question that George would be good at sharing his wonderful experiences!!!
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Lunker
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Lake Thompson,
I have a 1-7/8 acre pond that is now 2 years old here in central Louisiana. I too thought of the expense of the CB verses pure Florida LMB.
My thought process at that time was, what is my goal for my fishery verses available funds. I ended up comprimising and stocked 75 Florida LMB and 25 CB. I understand this is on the light side of stocking but with my limited funds, I thought I could introduce additional CB in the future as I manage my body of water.
I stocked my bass from Overton's in the July of 2012 that was stocked previously in Jan. of 2012 with 10 lbs of FHM, 1,000 CNBG, 500 NBG, 300 Readear, 25 CC & 18 HSB. I feed Auqamax and have aeration in 3 sections of the pond.
The data of caught fish are as follows:
2/09/13 - 11" 9 oz CB
2/10/13 - 11" 9 oz Florida LMB
4/28/13 - 12" 1 lb CB
12" 1 lb 1 oz CB
12" 1 lb 1.1 oz CB
6/26/13 - 12" 1 lb 3 oz CB
From information I have gathered from this site, I believe I am above the relative weights.
I know this doesn't answer your question but wanted to offer the data I had captured thus far hoping this my help you make a decision.
The bass fight hard, they were caught on worms in the shallows while feeding on minnows and small Bluegill. My assumption is once the Florida LMB and CB cross, I should have additional benefit of fight plus size that should make the kids hearts race to max pace and their mind dance like the stars.
Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to give all the details to explain the results I have listed.
Couppe
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OP
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No problem about the long post! I like information  That growth sounds good to me! I'm glad you put up your results and decision, it's along the lines of what I've been kicking around. Mixing it up. I've slept on this for a couple of days and thought about it. I'm looking at putting 75-100 bass in. I haven't even stocked the forage yet, so I have time to save. I'd love to get several spawns out of the forage. Thanks for your time on this!
A bad day fishing is better than the best day at work!
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This info below is not about CB but Fla and northern LMB. It does give insight into the unknowns of Fla LMB genetics. I want to note again that Fla LMB males are smaller than northern males - a good bit. So half your LMB will be smaller and the females may be bigger. From a prior thread. http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/visit...5&Submit=GoFor the last 3 years,(update note -- it looks like the trend of large LMB is tending more toward Fx fish not pure Flas) not only has Texas posted records of every LMB submitted to the lunkershare program, but they also have posted the results of genetic testing as to whether the bass was a pure strain florida LMB, or a hybrid florida/northern cross. I found the numbers surprising. Of all of the 13 pound plus bass submitted, there were 34 pure strain LMB and 34 hybrid cross bass. Of all of the 14 pound plus bass, there were 12 hybrids and 11 florida strain bass. Of all of the 15 pound plus bass, there were 5 hybrid, and 4 florida strain bass. Of all of the 16 pound plus bass, there were 3 hybrid and 1 florida strain bass. I was expecting that as you increased the size of the bass, there would be a greater proportion of pure strain florida LMB. There aren't enough numbers for statistical significance, but it appears that the numbers skew in the opposite direction. More of the larger fish, especially when you look at the 15 and 16 pound fish, appear to be hybrids. This actually is consistent with the thinking that the world record fish, from Georgia,was a hybrid cross, and that most of the giants caught in California are also hybrid crosses. I would think that the absolute best way to stock a new lake would be with stock from huge LMB caught in the same geographical area. For instance, in Virginia, if stocking a new lake and hoping for trophy bass, you might be best off using trophy fish caught from Briery Creek Lake, and Lake Connor, which have produced most of the huge fish in the state in the last 5 years. In California, you might be best served by stocking bass from Lake Castaic, and similarly productive waters. Certainly the food supply and water quality from the above waters played a huge role, but in stocking from proven stock, you would be nearly assured that your fingerlings would have the genetic potential to get huge, if given ideal growing conditions.
Last edited by ewest; 01/03/14 10:43 AM.
.gif) 
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Awesome info! Thanks for all of that! And I'm with you, it's not what I expected.
We catch some great LMB (4lb-8lb) out at our ranch (30 min from the farm pond) in a large creek. I asked about moving some of those, but it was strongly discouraged for understandable reasons. As far as the chance of introducing problematic issues into my pond. I'm really not far from Overton's and that's likely where I will buy my fish when the time comes. I have some willows to take care of before I get too far.
A bad day fishing is better than the best day at work!
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In my opinion, if you have a new lake or pond and want to grow trophy bass down south, then you should stock 100% Camelot Bell Florida Bass. This way they breed true and you don't wind up with any hybrids. Even though EWEST presented the above info with Fx trophies, allowing for or even promoting hybrid production in your bass lake may lead to outbreeding depression and diminishing growth potential.
Having said that, I want to stress that George Glazener has caught 5 of the 8 marked Camelot Bell Bass adults that we stocked in his pond. The Camelot Bell bass may prove to be the most catchable Florida genetics available. 100% of any Camelot Bell Broodstock were caught and harvest hook and line, so they obviously carry the "catchability" gene.
Then, finally, in an effort to diffuse any notion that it costs a fortune to stock CB Bass, I must say that they are available for less than the cost of a goldfish at wal-mart. Our regular CB fingerlings are available for $2 ea, and CB Lunker Fingerlings are available for $5 ea. At a stocking rate of 50-100 bass per acre, this translates to only $100 - $500 per acre to get the best Florida genetics available.
It's ALL about the fish!
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LakeThompson,
A little better explanation on my limited funds comment, I had saved all the cash I expected to need for the building of the pond plus 50% excess.
Needless to say, that 50% was just about gone when I headed up to Overton's to get my fish. By this time, my beautiful wife was giving me the evil eye each time I looked for the check book when it came to the "Pond Funds". Next the rolling of the eyes, finger pointing, feet stomping, talk to the hand motion, etc, you get the idea, momma not to happy.
If I had to do this again, I would follow the advise of Overton's and go full with the CB for initial stocking. Now I am at the "Pay Me Now or Pay Me Later" part of my pond management. I will have to make additional trips, ( 660 miles round trip ) and get larger CB to keep the genetics going over the long haul. What I should have done was wait another season and then stock my CB only.
As stated above, the magority of my documented catches were CB so that is right in line with the CB being more agressive and catachable.
Couppe
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Okay. You sold me! It will require more saving, but it sounds like it will be worth it. I have nothing but time, our farm isn't going anywhere. Unfortunately my pond isn't new though. There are some CC in there, that I don't want! My wife and I are an an eradication mission this afternoon. I'm not sure how many there are, but I can't swing an electrofishing survey at this time, I know that. If needed I'll get a scout troop out or something and let them go nuts on the CC.
Coupe, I know what you mean. I haven't really done anything yet but I'm so excited about it that I'm already driving her nuts I think!
A bad day fishing is better than the best day at work!
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Hall of Fame Lunker
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With an abundance of forage and low stocking rates, what you expect out of "normal/native" LMB as far as weight? I'd love to create the opportunity for my family and friends to catch great bass out of our pond and I fully expected an investment with this, but wow! CB are a fortune. What's the comparison? Thanks! What's a CB? I only know what a CB1 is.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Hall of Fame 2015 Lunker
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With an abundance of forage and low stocking rates, what you expect out of "normal/native" LMB as far as weight? I'd love to create the opportunity for my family and friends to catch great bass out of our pond and I fully expected an investment with this, but wow! CB are a fortune. What's the comparison? Thanks! What's a CB? I only know what a CB1 is.  Charlie Brown? Could be a "hey good buddy" communication device?, but I think in this context... 
Last edited by JKB; 01/04/14 12:28 PM.
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I am surprised there is not an acronym for Camelot Bell. Or am I missing it in the list? ACRONYMS Ps... there should be one for Cecil too!!!
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Ps... there should be one for Cecil too!!! What would that be...  ?
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Ps... there should be one for Cecil too!!! What would that be... ?  
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Ps... there should be one for Cecil too!!! What would that be... ? Yeah, my bad. We shouldn't go there!!! 
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I have not seen one written or factual article/report of outbreeding depression in Fla X Northern (F-1 or Fx) LMB. My personal belief is that they are so close genetically that they are not hybrids and do not exhibit outbreeding depression like HBG or other sunfish or other species crosses. There are large regions of the SE US (most of it) , TX and Cal where there are large populations of natural integrade Fx LMB with out any reports of outbreeding depression.
No doubt that in many fish species including BG and LMB catchability is a heritable trait. That does not mean that CB have better catachability in an entire population than other Fla LMB. Some individuals and their offspring may have better catchability than some Fla LMB lines.
Last edited by ewest; 01/05/14 12:35 AM.
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Thanks Ewest for the clarification and getting me straight.
I apoligize if I sounded misleading, that was not my intention in no way shape or form.
You stated above that there are no factual documentation on out breding depression on FX LMB. In my situation of a 1-7/8 pond with 75 LMB & 25 Cammellot Bell stocked 1.5 years ago, I would not have to continue adding Cammolet Bell to keep the pure gene pool going?
Also, if the 2 types of LMB are so close genetically, would there be crossbreeding and if so, would we be able to identify the difference of the breeds?
Sorry for my ignorance, questions and prying, I am just attempting to understand as much as I can about this particular situation.
Couppe
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Will the 75 LMB be Fla strain or northern or F-1s (Fla X northern)?
If the 75 are Fla strain you will not be able to tell genetically the difference between them and CB because I don't think that can be measured yet. Fla , northern and F-1 or Fxs can be genetically determined (not cheap to do and only a few places can do so). Cross breeding in this context means crossing 2 distinct species not 2 strains of LMB or 2 types of Fla LMB. For example if 2 humans have a baby it is not a cross as both parents are human (one species).
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I am curious what would happen if LakeThompaon's initial stocking was a little less then the recommended per acre for LMB.Is this something that could be managed?I would imagine with a few good spawns in the long run things should work out.Maybe add a few hsb's to the stocking plan to keep things in check.Then as the CB-LMB's play catch up you could pull some HSB's out for the table.
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Thanks for the follow up Ewest.
The 75 LMB that were stocked were Florida strain.
The LMB that were caught I assumed to be Camelot Bell LMB since they had the vertical stripes on the sides. Wrong again.....just more proof I have so much more to learn....
Couppe
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If you want to ID fish that you stock, look into fin clipping. Larger fish can have floy tags inserted.
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Thanks Esshup, I will do just that.
LakeThompson, you make consider taking esshups advise of clipping fins before stocking. That sure would reduce that learning curve I am on...
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This info below is not about CB but Fla and northern LMB. It does give insight into the unknowns of Fla LMB genetics. I want to note again that Fla LMB males are smaller than northern males - a good bit. So half your LMB will be smaller and the females may be bigger. From a prior thread. http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/visit...5&Submit=GoFor the last 3 years,(update note -- it looks like the trend of large LMB is tending more toward Fx fish not pure Flas) not only has Texas posted records of every LMB submitted to the lunkershare program, but they also have posted the results of genetic testing as to whether the bass was a pure strain florida LMB, or a hybrid florida/northern cross. I found the numbers surprising. Of all of the 13 pound plus bass submitted, there were 34 pure strain LMB and 34 hybrid cross bass. Of all of the 14 pound plus bass, there were 12 hybrids and 11 florida strain bass. Of all of the 15 pound plus bass, there were 5 hybrid, and 4 florida strain bass. Of all of the 16 pound plus bass, there were 3 hybrid and 1 florida strain bass. I was expecting that as you increased the size of the bass, there would be a greater proportion of pure strain florida LMB. There aren't enough numbers for statistical significance, but it appears that the numbers skew in the opposite direction. More of the larger fish, especially when you look at the 15 and 16 pound fish, appear to be hybrids. This actually is consistent with the thinking that the world record fish, from Georgia,was a hybrid cross, and that most of the giants caught in California are also hybrid crosses. I would think that the absolute best way to stock a new lake would be with stock from huge LMB caught in the same geographical area. For instance, in Virginia, if stocking a new lake and hoping for trophy bass, you might be best off using trophy fish caught from Briery Creek Lake, and Lake Connor, which have produced most of the huge fish in the state in the last 5 years. In California, you might be best served by stocking bass from Lake Castaic, and similarly productive waters. Certainly the food supply and water quality from the above waters played a huge role, but in stocking from proven stock, you would be nearly assured that your fingerlings would have the genetic potential to get huge, if given ideal growing conditions. Most folks don’t realize that science and politics don’t mix, and perhaps Ewest is aware, but perhaps not, that the TP&W data posted is highly skewed in favor of a privileged group that receive the majority of the fingerlings from the largest lunkers that are then stocked in their private lakes - the majority of remaining fry is stocked in public waters, to the best of my knowledge. The data is further skewed by probability of low odds of one on one breeding of DNA pure Florida bass, with the likely mating with the more numerous native LMB, F1s and intergrades, that are more easily caught than pure Floridas. Factual information is not generally available about this program.
N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
Original george #173 (22 June 2002)
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Thanks Esshup, I will do just that.
LakeThompson, you make consider taking esshups advise of clipping fins before stocking. That sure would reduce that learning curve I am on... Couppe, I believe that I am the only one on the forum with almost two years experience with the Camelot Bell pure Florida strain LMB. I do not post anything on the forum without having hands on experience. I agree with fin clip CB but with more mature fish the ID is obvious with a spot on their nose with a blue/green coloration on mottled back. Due to my being color challenged, better check with Todd Overton for his ID methodology. Good luck with your CB program - I am excited with their potential! George Glazener http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post354527Fin Clip:  
Last edited by george1; 01/07/14 11:22 AM. Reason: Fin Clip
N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
Original george #173 (22 June 2002)
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