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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
CB1 & jludwig say "If the lake association doesn't want to pay for competent management i'd predict disaster with an extension feeding program."

I wholeheartedly agree. Implementing a fish feeding program should not be started unless it is known what the current status is of species and size groups that currently comprise the fish community. This shows which species would benefit best from the feeding program. Good baseline fishery information needs to be known about the fishes present so comparisons can be made to see how well the feeding is helping improve the fishery. The main problem as I see it is the lack of confidence that the HOA has about the benefits a knowledgeable fishery expert can provide.


It would be interesting to know why they have this lack of confidence. Perhaps they had bad experience with a self proclaimed expert? I've heard of celebrity anglers that think they are experts on bass management just because they can catch them.


I think they should invite a professional to a HOA meeting and go from there. I think they would be surprised.

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I agree that prof help is warranted and suggested to hold off on more fish. However he said no ! My view of this is that we should try and help guide him through this not just say the sky is falling. Gather what info you can and lets see how we can help. I am not going to define "extensive" which was not suggested by anyone. An extensive feeding program on a 210 acre lake would cost way more than the fish being contemplated. This is not some 1 acre pond. He could easily run 5 feeders with a supp feeding program and not make a dent (measurable change) in the clear water quality. IIRC this lake is twice the size of RM and has somewhat similar properties (acid with water flow and clear water).
















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Originally Posted By: ewest
I agree that prof help is warranted and suggested to hold off on more fish. However he said no ! My view of this is that we should try and help guide him through this not just say the sky is falling. Gather what info you can and lets see how we can help.


I can't agree more!!! Well said.

What about all the different ways he may research and evaluate what he has going on. Then apply that knowledge to help start the process of proper management. He will gain their trust thru education and applying simple techniques, and then they may trust his opinion when he says its time to bring in a professional manager.

Perhaps the HOA is willing to spend money on traps, seins, etc?
Perhaps spending money on literature to educate the fisherman as to what needs to be kept track of and how to do it?

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Wow,

Thank you all for your input and obviously this is a forum where people care about our fish and waterways. It's great to see so much free Positive feedback to try and help me.

It's obvious I need to build some faith within the HOA and convince them that continuing to throw fish (and money aimlessly) into this beautiful lake, may not be the best long-term goal.

I think there has been some history of people arguing when the lake should be stocked, what it should be stocked with, when the lake should be lowered, etc... I am new to the HOA so I have no history and have not screwed up anything yet or pissed anyone mad that I know.

As someone mentioned, I think you all have convinced me that it would be best if I get some professional assistance from Clemson, USC, or elsewhere. This lake could be a great project for a college student with all the Wildlife and fish in it. It actually could be a 4 year study for one student who then could pass it on to another student, when they graduate.
Most of the people who live on the lake are local and generally support one of these two colleges, so it may be an easier sell.

As I am typing this I just watched one of the eagles grab a Chain Pickeral and is tearing it apart eating it, in the tree across the lake.

Does anyone know who at these colleges I should contact to see if there is an interest?

I may not be able to stop the HOA from stocking this year, but as was suggested, I may be able to get a Professional involved, propose a study to electro-shock the lake, and put a long-term plan together to make this lake Sustainable rather than fishable, or just another one of Mother Nature's Gems we try and fight.

Thank You all once again.

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I think you are making a smart decision Foodeefish, it should be an easier sell as well to the HOA , as the University should have nothing to gain but knowledge and experience for students , and they aren't trying to sell you anything. Could be a class project as well during the Spring. Let us know what they find / recommend as I'm sure people here could help tailor their advice to best fit your situation.


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Originally Posted By: Foodeefish



Some background I am sure will be needed, so here goes.

The lake is 210 acres, spring-fed,mostly 4-10 feet deep and the deepest part is 35 feet deep. The water is very clear to where you can see 8-10 feet deep and the PH is Currently 6.3. We are in the process of adding Christmas Trees and Pallets as the structure and cover is limited right now.

There are Largemouth Bass, Bluegill, Shellcracker, a small number of Hybrid Crappie, Chain Pickerel, Grass Carp,and Blue Catfish.

The Beavers are being trapped, Slider turtles seem fine, we have a pair of Bald Eagles as well as a few Ospreys.
Only 10-15 people fish this private lake and most bass are 1-2.5-3# fish.
Some fish between 4# and 8# are caught (but not often) and a 12# 12 ounce and a few 10#rs were caught last year.

We see a large amount of 3-5 inch bass and bluegill around most of the docks- they seem plentiful.

The HOA does not want to electro-shock to see exactly the balance of the lake and I cannot convince them, so it's a dead issue.

- How much Lime would need to be added to increase the PH from 6.3 to a healthier PH amount?
- Are Fat Head minnows better in this case than Mosquito Fish?
- Any other suggestions?

Thank You for any guidance and thoughts.


I wholeheartedly agree with the professional help suggestion.

You are dealing with a body 30x what I am presently dealing with. What my research has led me to understand is that the #1 order of business you should be attending to is water chemistry. Figure out your alkalinity and PH at a specific time and do the lime thing first.

It's hard to say how much lime for sure, but 1 ton per acre would be a good starting point. I would guess it will take much more than that. The water will lose some clarity. Hopefully the HOA understands this. Clear water for swimming is not the best for growing fish.

Christmas trees are great structure for spawning yellow perch. Not sure beyond that. Pallets should be good for FHM which would be my next course of action in your case.

I kind of went off assumptions with my project. 7 acres low PH super clear water and presumed low alkalinity. Water sample taken for verification and in process. I did 3 ton per acre simply because the trucking was the major cost in my case. I added 15 gallons of FHM and 200 YP even though I probably should have waited. I got in a rush as I want to have the YP spawn in spring.

Not an expert (far from it) but I take things seriously when I want to learn...

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Hesperus brings up liming and fertilizing. With their limited budget and only a relatively few anglers to please/satisfy, I don't think that increasing the 210 ac lake's fertility and creating more fish production will be able to be managed correctly by their limited amount of resources. More fish pounds per acre are not always better. However one can produce larger average sizes of fish in the existing carrying capacity by population adjustments without increasing fertility. It is a combination of fisheries and population management.

More fish being present will require more management even if it just involves harvesting more fish either by angling man hours or by electroshocking - monitoring to maintain the community to be skewed toward larger average sized fishes which I assume is the goal. The clear low fertility water is very capable of growing large trophy class fish, however not very many per acre. Clean water, low productivity lakes (oligotrophic) in US & Canada are testimony of this. With proper fish harvest (management), I think the fishery can be skewed to increase the average size of the species of fish that anglers are seeking. The "trick" is to find a professional fisheries biologist that is knowledgeable enough to recognize what needs to be done and how to accomplish the goal.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/20/13 03:46 PM.

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FYI:
Clemson http://www.clemson.edu/cafls/departments/biosci/graduates/interest.html
Clemson is currently looking for a fisheries professor.
http://wfscjobs.tamu.edu/jobs/assistant-professor-wildlife-ecology-south-carolina-2/
Patrick G. Jodice at Clemson is Leader of the South Carolina Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit; Associate Professor, Ph.D. Oregon State University, 1999. Research interests in the fields of wildlife ecology, conservation biology, physiological ecology, and ornithology. Current research focuses on ecological energetics, foraging ecology, diet and nutrition, and avian diving behavior. ( http://people.clemson.edu/~pjodice/ Email: pjodice@clemson.edu)

USC does not currently have a strong fisheries program

North Carolina State currently has a larger fisheries program and more fisheries professors than Clemson.
http://cnr.ncsu.edu/fer/directory/fwcb.php

East Carolina currently has a fisheries professor.
http://www.ecu.edu/cs-cas/biology/overton_anthony.cfm

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/20/13 03:44 PM.

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Contact Dave Willis at SDSU as they place students like that as we speak. They have IMO the best applied Fisheries Program in the US. Also they may be able to help through AFS (American Fisheries Society) as they have programs also and have regional affiliates (SDAFS covers your area).

http://sdafs.org/

Last edited by ewest; 11/20/13 04:02 PM.















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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Hesperus brings up liming and fertilizing. With their limited budget and only a relatively few anglers to please/satisfy, I don't think that increasing the 210 ac lake's fertility and creating more fish production will be able to be managed correctly by their limited amount of resources. More fish pounds per acre are not always better. However one can produce larger average sizes of fish in the existing carrying capacity by population adjustments without increasing fertility. It is a combination of fisheries and population management.

More fish being present will require more management even if it just involves harvesting more fish either by angling man hours or by electroshocking - monitoring to maintain the community to be skewed toward larger average sized fishes which I assume is the goal. The clear low fertility water is very capable of growing large trophy class fish, however not very many per acre. Clean water, low productivity lakes (oligotrophic) in US & Canada are testimony of this. With proper fish harvest (management), I think the fishery can be skewed to increase the average size of the species of fish that anglers are seeking. The "trick" is to find a professional fisheries biologist that is knowledgeable enough to recognize what needs to be done and how to accomplish the goal.


Correct me if I am wrong, but a ph of 6.3 is quite low. Clear water and low ph should indicate a likely low alkalinity and acidic water?

Liming would bring the alkalinity back in line and lessen the wild ph swings that would likely occur during the day.


What I was told by a WDNR fisheries biologist was that water in this type of range typically will sustain "ok" populations of LMB and bluegills, but not much more. Before I would add fish I'd get the water chemistry in order and see what nature can do on it's own with what already exists.

I think I read that they have a $16,000 budget?

Again consult an expert, but I'd be liming for stability first.

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Originally Posted By: Hesperus
Correct me if I am wrong, but a ph of 6.3 is quite low. Clear water and low ph should indicate a likely low alkalinity and acidic water?

Liming would bring the alkalinity back in line and lessen the wild ph swings that would likely occur during the day.


What I was told by a WDNR fisheries biologist was that water in this type of range typically will sustain "ok" populations of LMB and bluegills, but not much more. Before I would add fish I'd get the water chemistry in order and see what nature can do on it's own with what already exists.

I think I read that they have a $16,000 budget?

Again consult an expert, but I'd be liming for stability first.


A pH of 6.3 isn't that low as 7 is neutral. Low to me, would be like 4.7.

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A pH of 6.3 is just 0.2 less than what is considered normal range of pH for natural waters. "Aquatic life and recreational uses of lakes and streams are not affected when the pH varies between 6.5 and 9.0. When you see a pH value ask these questions because how and when the sample was taken can affect the measurement or reading." A difference of 0.2 could easily be due to error.
• Was the test performed correctly? Was the reading taken directly in the stream or was the sample handled correctly?
• Was the test performed during the summer in very productive waters (many aquatic plants)? Water containing many aquatic plants may have raised pH values on summer afternoons because of plant photosynthesis where readings will be lowest in early morning when plants have released carbon dioxide and highest mid or late afternoon when the CO2 has been abosrbed. CO2 addition makes water more acidic.
• Does the watershed contain a lot of granite-like rock, dense conifer forests, or acidic soil? If so, it will likely have relatively acidic waters. Limestone based soils will result in surface waters that are more basic or alkaline aka 'hard'.

Unpolluted rain water normally has a range of pH between 5 and 6.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/20/13 08:02 PM.

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Question for the experts? Since he said the HOA may want to stock regardless this year, would there be less risk/higher reward in adding the largest sized forage as possible (bluegill, shiners, redear sunfish, threadfins etc) and structure? Adding any predators just seems like it could be extremely risky without a survey first. Hopefully the college or pro's could help later, but I'm curious as to the dangers of that tactic

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Wow!!!

First, Thank You Mr. Cody (and others)for the contacts names and phone numbers. I will do my best to try and create a Stewardship for this lake and keep everyone on this Forum updated to our progress. I believe we have a gem of a lake here. I just saw an owl has taken residence in one of my duck boxes again this year and the Coots and Greebs have shown up while the Loons have flown North last week.

Thanks again to everyone and I will try and answer everyone's questions so I give more details below.

The lake is surrounded by Pines Trees 25'-50' high which the Eagles love. The only rocks are the rubble that was put on the inside of the actual dam when it was built so there would be no erosion. There are Lily pads both large and small in about 2-3% of the total lake. and there are weeds that cover roughly 5% of the shallow parts of the total lake.

I would guess that the lake has less than 1% structure. There are a few boats that have been sunk for ten years, approximately 12 sets of pallet pyramids/ triangles in 10 feet of water,, 50-70 individual Christmas Trees, and three,twelve foot PVC Trees in 23 feet of water. There are many tree stumps that are 6-12" tall because of the way the lake was created- Trees were cut and stumps were left before flooding but they really do not seem to hold fish. It could be the very clear water.
There are plenty of 3-5" Bass around most docks along with 2-3"Bluegills.

The 6.3 PH was taken the first week of November of this year.

The first consultant I have heard from has asked for a fee of $1600 per month to manage our lake. I am thinking the College route would be more rewarding for all involved.

Thank You

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Call Greg Grimes from your area and see what he says. The call will not cost you anything. Tell him PB sent you.

http://www.lakework.com

(770) 735-3523

Last edited by ewest; 11/21/13 10:44 AM.















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If the panfish populations are currently at carrying capacity then adding more of the same species of fish is IMO fruitless. Addition of new species should only be done after a study shows that food resources of a niche are not being utilized. When new fish of existing species are added to a water body that is currently at carrying capacity, the newly stocked fish often die or do not grow well because the existing fish have the "upper hand" and out compete the new stockers.

I suspect that fish harvest has not been adequate in the last year and since young of year fish are readily evident, it is very likely the lake is at carrying capacity. Now all that needs to be done is manage or adjust the numbers in the various size classes to improve growth of the desired group of individuals.

In the instances when both existing and new stockers survive, all the fish that are utilizing the current food resources have to now share resources and growth overall of the species at that trophic feeding level suffers. Isn't the goal actively growing quality fish? If so why is adding more fish and all of them are now growing slower a benefit? A fishery professional should be able to determine is the lake is at carrying capacity, what trophic food sources are under utilized and if more fish or species are beneficial and how to best manage the current fishery with the current conditions of the lake without changing its current nutrient balance or budget. We are taking 10-16 anglers for 210 acres of water. What is the total angler hours on the lake per year (angling hrs/ac/yr)? This basic management fact should be known together with angler and harvest surveys. IMO this is a good basic place to start.

I still contend that for the size of the lake and the few actual users of the fishery, the annual harvest has not been adequate in terms of numbers and/or slot size harvest to achieve the goals and fully utilize or optimize the current lake's fishery potential. The addition of beneficial fish habitat to concentrate the fish and implement best fish harvest guidelines and techniques may be all that is needed to achieve the goals of the "lake association". The wise and experienced fishery professionals who are not just about making money should be able to achieve the goals of the HOA. Before deciding who to hire, I suggest that each applicant submit proposals of work to be performed and goals to be achieved and what the consequences are if those goals are not met and done within budget. If desired we can help evaluate the proposals for selecting the best approach. Be very cautious about spending a lot of money changing the ecology of the lake to benefit only 10-15 anglers. IMO seek advice of how to better manage the existing resources that you currently have. Even if it is educating anglers how to be better ecologically minded anglers and how to properly assist in the management of the fishery.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/21/13 08:37 PM.

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To echo Bill - in southern waters a newly stocked pond (open and empty of fish) reaches carrying capacity in 18 mths +- . What is needed is harvest mgt. If I was forced to make a wild guess I would say add feeders and adult BG and TShad and start taking out predators (LMB and all crappie and others). Add some lime and if possible put the lime where the feeders will throw food.
















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Originally Posted By: Foodeefish
Wow,

Thank you all for your input and obviously this is a forum where people care about our fish and waterways. It's great to see so much free Positive feedback to try and help me.

It's obvious I need to build some faith within the HOA and convince them that continuing to throw fish (and money aimlessly) into this beautiful lake, may not be the best long-term goal.

I think there has been some history of people arguing when the lake should be stocked, what it should be stocked with, when the lake should be lowered, etc... I am new to the HOA so I have no history and have not screwed up anything yet or pissed anyone mad that I know.

As someone mentioned, I think you all have convinced me that it would be best if I get some professional assistance from Clemson, USC, or elsewhere. This lake could be a great project for a college student with all the Wildlife and fish in it. It actually could be a 4 year study for one student who then could pass it on to another student, when they graduate.
Most of the people who live on the lake are local and generally support one of these two colleges, so it may be an easier sell.

As I am typing this I just watched one of the eagles grab a Chain Pickeral and is tearing it apart eating it, in the tree across the lake.

Does anyone know who at these colleges I should contact to see if there is an interest?

I may not be able to stop the HOA from stocking this year, but as was suggested, I may be able to get a Professional involved, propose a study to electro-shock the lake, and put a long-term plan together to make this lake Sustainable rather than fishable, or just another one of Mother Nature's Gems we try and fight.

Thank You all once again.



Hey I'm pleasantly surprised you are willing to listen and be educated. We get some folks that come on here that want us to tell them what they want to hear vs. what they should hear. Consequently they storm off in a huff and we never hear from them again.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Hello Foodeefish
I am in Newberry County about 1 1/2 hr. from you. Sounds like a beautiful set up down there in Aiken County. I fished a lot of ponds down there as a child visiting relatives. I'm a Carolina man but Clemson is the school to choose for your project. They specialize in this subject through the Clemson Extension Service. Your Extension Service agent in Aiken County should be able to help you. If not, contact Jeff Fellers at the Union County Extension office and he can put you on to someone to talk to. Jeff is very helpful. I know they have an excellent person that specializes in this matter, but I can not remember his name. Good luck with your project.

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We work with HOAs across SC on similar issues- lots of water, little angling pressure, lets stock it to fix it. As many wise folks have stated here already, a complete assessment is needed before launching into a stocking program. And that assessment would be a fraction of the proposed cost. Would be happy to come speak to your board.

Wade


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Originally Posted By: Wade B.
We work with HOAs across SC on similar issues- lots of water, little angling pressure, lets stock it to fix it. As many wise folks have stated here already, a complete assessment is needed before launching into a stocking program. And that assessment would be a fraction of the proposed cost. Would be happy to come speak to your board.

Wade


As an officer of a Citizens Group/ Lake assoc. board (6800 acre reservoir) I can say that this type of offer needs to be taken seriously. This is huge to have someone in the field come and discuss the reasons directly with the board OR the entire HOA at large.

Second opinions always good as well.

Test the water chemistry would be my starting point as well. This would be something that in my opinion should be done prior to engaging speakers.

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Update,

Thanks again everyone for your open and honest feedback. I have reached out to Clemson University as well as the other contacts people have posted. I have been told that some of the contacts could not help me, but they each gave me another name or group to contact. I will update everyone as I hopefully get some assitance.
I truly am on this forum to listen and learn and I am hoping the HOA and the fishermen will listen to me as I attempt to educate them.

I think as I get more involved in the HOA by voluntering for the Dam Committe, the Fish Stocking Committee the Landscaping committee, I will gain more and more trust from the HOA Members. One thing I have against me is I am a Yankee but I think I get a pass, as I am not an aggressive Yankee and I truly care about our lake and it's surroundings.



I have begun to put together a folder of information and pictures of the fish we have in the lake, Suggested types of Structure that would benefit our fish, facts about how fish spawn, and a few facts about how we should not play Mother Nature by just dumping fish in our lake of liming willy nilly. I figured I could make a handout and leave it at the next meeting for people who would like one.

Thanks
Foodeefish

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I would ask those HOA interested in the ecology and fisheries of the lake read the posts in this thread. IMO the posts are informative regarding the current approach or path and an improved path and wiser use of the monies designated for lake use.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/22/13 09:38 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I would ask those HOA interested in the ecology and fisheries of the lake read the posts in this thread. IMO the posts are informative regarding the current approach or path and an improved path and wiser use of the monies designated for lake use.


It would take some time cutting/pasting, but maybe printing out the questions/suggestions in chronological order and having them to hand out would help as well. I've run into some people who still won't or can't use a computer.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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Just wanted to update everyone after all the great advice I have been given.

I was not able to stop the stocking of the fish, but I was able to educate the HOA with all your feedback.


I have requested funds to be put aside for next year to:

1)Have the lake electro-shocked so we can see what we have in the lake.
2) Hire a professional give us guidance as to what needs to be done

I think I will get the funds so we will be on the right path in the near future.

We did however have the following fish stocked over a three day period in the last two weeks.

30,000 Bluegill 3-4"
15,000 Shellcracker- 3-4'
2,000 4-6" Bluegill
2,000 4-6" Shellcracker
10,000 Black Crappie
1,500 Largemouth Bass-2-4"
200,000 Fathead Minnows

Both the DNR and Clemson said that the lake needs much more cover so that the fry that does hatch, has a better chance of surviving and the fish have better places to hide. Now the rush is on to sink pallet pyramids, Hardwood limbs, Bamboo Condos, Christmas Trees, single pallets with 1/4" mesh for the Minnows to spawn and just about anything I can get my hands on for free.

It is going to be a busy, busy winter thanks to you all, but I am hoping it will be worth it.

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