I have read and read through the archives and have concluded that perhaps I'm no closer to having a stocking plan than when we cut the first tree this spring. Hopefully you guys can give me a hand.
The pond is approximately 3.25 acres of surface with a maximum depth of 18' and an overall average of 10' to 12'. It is fed by several springs and runoff. The springs are running at about 15 gpm right now and should continue at that rate until early summer. This summer during the drought, they were still supplying a few gallons per minute.
It is a clay bottom, but I have added a couple gravel "roads" running across the bottom, fish houses constructed with the rocks we dug up, pvc trees, and pallet structures, with more to come in the future.
There is a 60' island in the middle, lined with rock on the slopes.
The objective of the pond is to provide a place where the owner, friends, employees and families, young and old, can go to relax and catch fish.
So, with that being said, the only requirement the owner has is that he be able to catch SMB and a large variety of other species. All other species are completely up to me, no limitations. Also, reproduction abilities aren't a big concern as the owner is willing to stock every year.
Thanks for your help in advance.
Dan
Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/08/1311:15 AM. Reason: Added PA for region of US
Welcome Dan! Exciting project and many here have extensive experience raising smallmouth bass. TJ should see this soon, as well as Bill Cody, both experts on the owner’s favorite species.
Welcome to PB Dan. When you say new, does that mean it's not filled up yet? Which also goes along with.. are you absolutely sure the pond is void of fish life?
YP/RES/SMB with a few put-and-take bonus fish...WE? HSB? Let's see what "Wild" Bill Cody can come up with. You'll need to build spawning habitat for SMB if you want them to reproduce.
I manage a fishery of cool water species and am happy to share my experiences thus far.
My fishery consists of WE, HSB, SMB, YP, and HBC as predators. RES, BG and RBG are panfish and help serve as forage. Additional forage stocked includes GSH, native Crayfish, and Grass Shrimp. I also provide several daily AM 500/600 feedings from March thru October and supplementally hand feed AM LMB formula for my SMB and HSB. I feed in low light evening periods to help promote additional BG predation from predators when BG are more vulnerable feeding.
Highlights:
Age 3 WE average 15", and have a couple larger fish stocked as 13" fish. Largest sampled two years ago was 20.5" and estimate 4#. Not sure the fish have grown more than that - sure hope so.
HSB are ladder stocked annually and top end fish are 27-28" and exceed 12#
SMB top out at 18.5", but suspect theres a few females beyond that I might sample through the ice this year. There is recruitment through natural reproduction, and I also stock my top 1% SMB from my hatchery annually to keep populations stable.
Best YP thus far is 13.5" - but they struggle to compete with other species for pellets and their overall performance has suffered against BG and GSH competition. I continue to stock supplementally about 100 annually as I suspect recruitment is severely impacted by predation.
HBC top out at 16" and are a blast through the ice. Reproducing with recruitment, I would NOT recommend them as a candidate for your fishery until we have more data to determine their role in a fishery.
RES are not generally prospering, but have caught a few superior fish at 11". Most fish are lower WR and in the 5-6" range. I'm clueless on how I can improve their performance - likely through harvest.
BG are overpopulated, lower WR, but population condition is improving due to the increased predation/management by HSB and SMB as their gape increases and they can take larger fish [4-5" BG]. I also collect many BG annually to provide to friends. Bear in mind BG are not typically recommended for a cool water species fishery due to management issues that can ensue. Top end BG thus far is 10.5".
Grass shrimp and crayfish populations are strong following initial stocking 5 years ago. GSH population has suffered due to increasing pressure from SMB/HSB, but still seeing recruitment.
I don't know your goals, but if I had to do it all over again, this is the stocking strategy I would pursue with goals of angling variety through multi species management and emphasis on fewer/trophy fish:
Spring 2014
- 50-100 native crayfish/ac - 250-500 grass shrimp/ac - Up to 10# FHM/ac - I'd stock as many FHM I could feasibly hand sort and verify ID. Every order of FHM I've received has been infected with invasive fish - namely BG and BH. You may have more trusted sources available to you there, but two rogue BG or BH can derail your fishery management goals permanently and require you to alter the entire plan. Trust me, I know this too well as I have BG and BH in my fishery - thus the reason for the heavy stocking of apex predator fish. Not the route I wanted to take. - 50-100 GSH/ac [adults] I like GSH as forage, but realize there exist some drawbacks [compete with YP for pellets in my experience] and they can be bothersome bait stealers ala Bill Cody. - Other minnow types can be stocked along with FHM and/or GSH, including darter, bluntnose minnow and shiner species that Bill and Travis can lend their experience on. I think varying the forage base with multiple minnow and shiner species is very beneficial to help relieve pressure on eachother.
- Panfish....You can select a panfish species to stock in the Spring. RES are typically recommended for cool water species fisheries as they are low fecundity compared to BG and typically will never pose an overpopulation/stunting management issue like BG tend to. However, RES may be beyond their northern limits in NW PA, so RES may not be an option for you. I don't recommend BG as you will experience population management issues since SMB/HSB/YP have limited gape capabilities and the nature of the BG as a highly fecund, multiple spawner. PS [Pumpkinseed] is a species few members focus upon on the forum, but Dr Dave Willis has indicated their presence as companion panfish species in SMB fisheries in SD have exhibited similar population management issues as BG. I am not familiar with how PS compare to BG in terms of reproduction, but they don't attain a BG or RES top end size, but do share the RES characteristic of targeting snails/crustaceans as a favored forage item as PS possess the pharyngeal molars necessary to grind shells.
We need a "silver bullet" companion sunfish species for SMB fisheries North of the RES range, and I'm hopeful someone eventually can market a sunfish hybrid capable of snail predation but with low fecundity. BG-RES or PS-RES might be options - but over several generations these hybrids may revert to almost pure genetics of one of the parents...HBG [GSF/BG] hybrids revert to nearly pure GSF over several generations according to Cody. As far as the other hybrids listed above - no one knows yet - there's little research on them. So the panfish question looms - the forum can attack together, if you want panfish at all.
Fall 2014
100-200 YP/ac
Spring/Summer 2015
50-100 SMB/ac depending on goals for SMB - 50/ac for large fish, 100/ac for higher angling rate 25-50 HSB/ac depending on goals for HSB - if pellet feeding forage/size won't be an issue, but if you need them to help manage a species [BG for instance] you'll want to go higher stocking rates [see Nate Herman recipe 100+/ac]
Fall 2015
25 WE/ac
I'd ladder stock the HSB and WE annually to provide several year/size classes and to cover fish harvested and to cover natural mortality. QTY of supplemental, annual ladder stocking depends on management issues of BG [for instance] or number harvested - anywhere from 10-25 annually or more. If you harvest 20 WE thru the ice one season, plan on stocking 25+ the next year. WE body condition is a cue, too - if they all have high WR, you can consider nudging the ladder stocking qty upwards. If your 16-18" WE have low WR, you need to shift your focus towards forage base issues before you dump more WE into the fishery, obviously.
If you experience SMB recruitment, you likely won't need to supplementally stock. If you aren't witnessing SMB recruitment, you'll need to add them to the ladder stocking program. Again, qty is determined by your goals and whatever role you need/want them to play in the management scheme.
I would strongly consider implementing pellet feeding program to help take pressure off your forage base. SMB, YP, HSB, GSH and your various minnows will all readily utilize pellets when available, allowing the forage base to continue to grow.
This strategy is tuned to achieve my personal goals: To provide multiple species angling opportunity and to grow larger, trophy-ish fish. Your target species or goals may vary, then so too would this stocking strategy. If the results I've related here interest you, this is one avenue to explore. Just as easy to develop would be a YP, SMB, WE pond with GSH and pellets as forage. GSH, WE and SMB pond? Sure. Lots of options for you, blank canvas!
The one dilemma here is panfish species selection. You aren't required to stock a panfish, but they do provide angling return for youngsters if that's a priority of yours, like it is for my family. Travis has experience with Red Breasted sunfish [RBS?] and mentioned them as a potential companion species for SMB I think at some point on the forum, but I have no experience with them. Again, until a hybrid sunfish is developed as a desirable companion species, this issue will continue to plague northern smb fisheries.
Hope this helps, others will be along to chime in - and welcome to the forum. Can't wait to see your paradise take shape!
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
Aw shucks Eric, that's a nice out you're providing me. However, that Condeller feller is raising true mutants only 10 minutes away! I don't harvest fish, and my biomass is getting dangerously heavy. If I don't employ some kind of culling/harvest program, nature is going to do it for me, in sudden and unkind ways. I love my fish like pets, and that can lead to poor management practices...and it has. I'm a prime example of a well intentioned manager with the fatal love flaw.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
Thanks for the replies. And a big thanks to TJ for the in depth recommendation.
One concern I have is that the SMB I currently have access to are only 1 1/2 to 2". I would be worried that stocking them later would basically let them become an expensive food source for the other fish.
Is there a source anyone is familiar with that could supply larger SMB to NW PA?
I really like the WE idea.
What do you think about trout as well? Again, they would be more of a put and take type of fish.
I also had CC and suckers on my list. Any concerns with them?
CC will compete with other predators in the pond for forage fish once they get larger than 3 pounds or so. Plus once caught and released, they are VERY hard to catch again.
I'll let CJ or someone else that is more familiar with suckers in ponds to comment on them.
One problem that you will have is finding fish in Pa. Because Pa. is a "great lakes state", any fish brought into Pa. from another 'great lake state" will have to be tested for different diseases, and testing is an expensive propostion.
Laggis Fish Farm in Michigan has larger SMB. Look into sourcing pellet trained fish. Supplementally feed 'em good quality pellets and they will grow faster.
Creating a successful stocking strategy means consideration of fish size availability - it will dictate timing/schedule of the stocking plan. One must time things correctly so you aren't stocking snacks for other fish.
I'm sure you can source local hatcheries for larger SMB. If you can't, you can accelerate the SMB plan and stock with the YP at 3-4". A 3-4" YP won't prey on a 2" SMB effectively if at all - they'll be looking for Grass Shrimp and YOY [young of year] GSH and FHM. Nothing else in the pond will pose a risk to either fish at this time. By Fall, your SMB could be up to 6-8", and YP 6-8". Both are safe from WE and HSB stocking, if you elect to stock those fish.
I echo Scott's sentiments - CC will just add another mouth to feed in terms of pellets and place more pressure on your forage base. I would not recommend CC in this fishery type.
There are many species of suckers - the only beneficial species for your pond would be a lake chubsucker. All other suckers attain a rather large size and don't serve as available forage. I recommend allowing your GSH, young YP and pellets to serve as your primary forage base. If it were MY pond, no CC or Suckers.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
One problem that you will have is finding fish in Pa. Because Pa. is a "great lakes state", any fish brought into Pa. from another 'great lake state" will have to be tested for different diseases, and testing is an expensive proposition.
I would call Schultz's Fish Hatchery in PA. I know Kevin does feed training and may have feed trained WE.
Good advice so far. I know very little about redbreast sunfish & only a little more about pumpkinseed sunfish for use as forage fish and panfish in the sport fishery pond habitat. Not a lot of PB members use these fish species and their benefit in ponds is still in the 'research stage'.
If you decide to try the cool water fishery (SMB/WE/YP/HSB), my primary advice from lots of experience is initially & importantly stay away from BG when you stock SMB/WE/YP/HSB. BG are too prolific and hard for these cool water fish to control. If you have to have some BG then stock only male BG. However be aware if you do this and any other sunfish species are in the pond you will likely get hybrid bluegills which can lead to management and balance problems. At first stocking, use and explore other forage species & panfish options. Then after several years you can always default to adding & using BG if not satisfied with the initial stocking combination. But once BG are in the pond and pose a problem it requires lot of extra unnecessary management to keep them from becoming overpopulated. Over populated BG are not a big concern in or for smaller ponds that can be easily renovated, but once you get above 1-2 acres fish renovation to remove unwanted species becomes pretty expensive and more effort that could have been avoided. IMO you want to strongly avoid having to do fish renovation and it can easily be avoided by not stocking the "wrong" fish species despite what a fish hatchery and friends recommend. Fish hatchery personnel do not have to deal with your fish balance problems, thus their advice is many times questionable based on one's specific goals.
Secondly - I have a mild concern with previous advice in that is appears to be "light" on forage species for using all the predator species SMB/WE/YP/HSB unless you use very few WE and HSB. Don't expect FHM to survive long and will disappear fast after adding SMB. the golden shiners(GSH) when stocked early and allowed to grow large, can maintain a base population of big adult breeders, however their numbers may not be enough to feed a community of all sizes of SMB/WE/YP/HSB. Often big old GSH are not real productive due to common parasite problems. Expect the SMB and YP to reproduce. YP can be pretty prolific but in ponds with low weed cover SMB reproduction and recruitment eventually over-eat the young and small YP resulting in too little recruitment of large YP for table use. Your WE and HSB will not reproduce so one can have pretty good control of their numbers.
As many have discovered, if you stock pellet trained & raised fish such as YP and SMB these pellet eating fish grow well and do not put appreciable predatory pressure on the minnow forage base. This allows the minnow/shiners each year to do a better job of recruiting small forage fish into the pond. Lack of proper forage results in slow growth of sport fish, which can be good or bad based on one's goals.
I see in your profile that you have other ponds on site. One of these ponds or a new small one (0.15-0.3ac) can serve as a forage fish pond to supplement forage for the SMB/WE/YP/HSB. Good minnow species for the forage pond are: GSH, FHM, bluntnose minnows, satinfin and/or spotfin shiner and crayfish production works well in the minnow pond. These minnow/shiners species usually have to be sourced from wild populations that are common in PA streams & lakes. A few native fish websites offer the above species that can in low numbers be used for brooder fish in barren ponds.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/10/1307:32 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Sorry, was out of civilization on a hunting trip in Bedford County, PA...
Anyways, I think RBS are the best candidate for a sunfish in a SMB pond. Although, they will not get nearly as large as BG, they will commonly reach 8" and some will push past 10" and 1 pound. And for anyone who has caught them, they fight like champs. They are a bit more fusiform than BG, making them easier for SMB and HSB to prey on. They are also far less prolific than BG.
They are commercially available and there is a golden morph variety as well similar to the golden rainbow trout in coloration.
Aguita: Welcome from a fellow Pennsylvanian PondBosser. You have found yourself to a website that is a treasure-trove of information for management of a pond. It will provide some great laughs and good friendships along the way. Your post, along with TJ's, Bill Cody's, and CJ's extensive write-ups, should be bookmarked for future reference. That is solid advice from great guys who seriously know what they are doing. Especially the part about TJ's 'love flaw'. Only on PondBoss can guys say they have a love flaw. LOL.
If you haven't already, please subscribe to Pondboss the magazine. It is a great read and helps support this great community. If someone has already suggested the same to you, please forgive my redundancy.
Thanks everyone for the advice. Sorry it took so long for me to reply. As a taxidermist and property manager, this time of the year is very busy for me and computer time is limited.
Is there any need for concern if I put crayfish in this pond? There is a lot written about crayfish damaging the dike. It may be pointless to worry about it however since we found many crayfish while digging the test holes the previous summer.
Also, there hasn't been any mention of trout for the pond. I am pretty comfortable that the water will be suitable for them and also realize that they will be a put and take type of fish, much like the WE.
Any comments on the trout idea?
Grass shrimp is something that was mentioned that I am unfamiliar with. Can someone point me to a good source?
Its filling quickly...got the boat ramp poured last week!
Trout can work in this situation either as annual put and take or year round survival when the mid-summer temperature and oxygen conditions are correct. Trout can live in almost any northern pond from Sept to June. Be aware that many new pond owners think their pond will support trout because the pond is deep which is a fallacy. They think deep water is cold water which is true, but deep water often becomes oxygen deficient in July-August for trout survival. DO in deep cool water for trout needs to be at or above 5ppm 24/7. In Jul-Aug when temps are warmest, algal production & decay highest, and spring flow the lowest is when the good trout water becomes death water for trout. It takes special ecological conditions, that most ponds even northern ponds do not have, for deep water to maintain good DO concentrations year round.
Adding, trout who can survive on supplemental pellet food, to a fish community pond, does not impart a lot of food competition among the other fishes especially if those other fishes are not strong pellet eaters. Thus it can work well.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/21/1303:30 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Dan, the crayfish will find their way into your pond so there isn't much to worry about that. If you have a fish population, they will usually keep crayfish numbers down.
As far as sourcing grass shrimp, the only good source I know of it Fattig's Fish Farm. TJ, an active member on here sometimes does group orders in the spring to help lower costs. I have plentiful numbers in my pond, if you want to come down to northern VA, I can net you some for free.
Not all crayfish species create burrows that damage pond liners. A few pond oriented crayfish species basically only burrow significant depths into the bottom when water levels drop during drying conditions especially those that happen to be dwelling in streams. Very often immigrating crayfish from streams into ponds are the burrowing types of species as evidenced by mud chimneys along shorelines. To my knowledge the predominate pond non-burrowing crayfish in central US is the papershell or calico crayfish - Orconectes immunis. Crayfish experts may know of other species that rarely form deep burrows.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/21/1308:48 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
`Thanks again. I guess there isn't much I can do about the native crayfish so I guess I'll just be thankful that they are in there.
Would there be any benefit to putting the fatheads in this winter, even if I have to cut holes in the ice to put them in?
Lastly, can anyone suggest a PA hatchery or one regionally located near NW PA? I have one in mind, but have seen some posts that suggested that I look elsewhere. Feel free to PM or e-mail me if you want.
Since the pond is new I know of no reason to add FHM in fall or early winter. They will not grow nor have a lot of activity during the "dormant" season. What advantage in a new pond could they possibly have? However if you wanted to make sure that you had some small forage fish available for some newly stocked smaller predators, such as perch, walleye, or bass, then adding FHM in the fall could provide some benefit. Technically it would be best to let the recently filled new pond sit fishless overwinter so it can continue to develop an enriched primary producer community of phytoplankton, zooplankton and larger invertebrate community. Numerous zooplankter species reproduce well in fall, late winter and early spring.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/26/1309:32 AM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
That is interesting about the crayfish Bill. Showing my ignorance I always figured a crayfish was a crayfish. Didn't even think about varieties. Guess that would be like saying all fish were alike.
I would agree with you on the deep burrows being in shallow or seasonally shallow water. While cleaning out two different old ponds I ran across some interesting clay/soil where the crawdads (as we call them) had burrowed deep and when they were gone burrow filled in with silt, making an interesting pattern when the dozer cut through the soil. I was amazed how deep some of these were. As I recall I was digging in the 6-8' range and still running across them.
But as you said, this was where water (because of the pond silted in or the dam broken) stood only part of the time and then shallow only. I don't recall seeing any of this where water had stayed at least a few feed deep.
Edit: after thinking about it the 6-8' depth would have been from my projected full pool line. But the burrows still must have been 5-6' deep in actual soil depth in places.
Last edited by snrub; 11/26/1310:04 AM. Reason: added info
The species of crayfish that are active burrowers will create the burrow often, but not always, out of the pond to brood their eggs. Some burrows are extensive depending on the species. Sometimes the genus or species can be recognized by the type of burrow that was created.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/26/1311:32 AM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
![[Linked Image from i1261.photobucket.com]](http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/ii582/teehjaeh57/I_subscribe_zps69249d43.gif)
.gif)
