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snrub #492734 06/26/18 04:09 PM
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Here is what I believe to be a RESxCNBG hybrid. Right at 10" length.

It is definitely a hybrid because the ear tab is not solid black like on a pure BG.

It lacks any green bars on the cheeks and it has a small mouth so I see no GSF involved.

It does have the mottled cheeks like a RES and has an off color red border on the ear tab that could indicate RES. Hybrids with GSF genes can also introduce an orange-ish translucent tab border, but since the fish lacks other GSF characteristics I say the border is from RES genes.

The only sunfish in the ponds are BG, CNBG, RES and a few GSF so those are the possibilities.

The biggest chance for hybridization would have been RESxCNBG (what was stocked in my sediment pond where I got so many hybrids produced) so it is likely that is what this fish is. But it could also possibly be from northern BG (from my main pond). I wish I would have taken a few more pictures from different angles. The RES mottled yellowish cheeks shown up much better in person than in the picture.

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Last edited by snrub; 06/26/18 04:13 PM.

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Looks like a standard HBG to me from the pic. Could easily be another cross however. Could also be a 3 way cross.

Last edited by ewest; 06/27/18 01:20 PM.















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Guessing GSF genetics in there due to yellow pelvic, anal, caudal fins - but like Eric says could easily be a F2, F3, F4 fish with multiple parental species genetics present. I'm not too familiar with CNBG but have seen some with a yellowish color on fins, but not that pronounced in my super limited experience. Regardless it's a beautiful fish.


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OK went back and looked closer and here is pic. When blown up you can see it has some white fin edges which is a CNBG trait. Appears to have CNBG nose scale patterning. Lateral line looks CNBG. Pect fin looks BG not RES. Also the white and yellow by the ear flap does not seem to be an edge margin but rather coloration under the flap (actual exam would disclose this better ). I think this is mostly BG but could have some GSF or RES genes. My guess is a very high % CNBG.




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Last edited by ewest; 06/27/18 03:41 PM.















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You both may be right but all my hybrids that have GSF have significantly larger mouths. That was the main reason I guessed it was one with RES genetics.

But if It was other than an F1 it could be showing different characteristics than what I am used to seeing.

The mottled yellow on the cheeks looks just like the cheeks of my RES
Doesn't look like any of my other CNBG male or female but could also be natural variation in the species if it was pure CNBG.

Like I said, wish I had taken more pictures.

Last edited by snrub; 06/27/18 03:45 PM.

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Northern BG x RES from a local lake, caught three of them this afternoon.


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That is one handsome fish, shorty.


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
snrub #493032 06/30/18 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: snrub
Here is what I believe to be a RESxCNBG hybrid. Right at 10" length.

It is definitely a hybrid because the ear tab is not solid black like on a pure BG.

It lacks any green bars on the cheeks and it has a small mouth so I see no GSF involved.



John, I agree with your comments about lacking some of the HBG traits but one trait still seems to be present, the yellow margins on the caudal and ventral fins seem to display at least some GSF (or do CNBG also have yellow fin margins?). I thought RES traits are displayed in this fish also. dlowrance is going to post some photos of RESxGSF and wonder if any will look similar this specimen.

Last edited by jpsdad; 06/30/18 09:44 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Shorty
Northern BG x RES from a local lake, caught three of them this afternoon.



Are you certain that Pumpkinseed are not in that pond?

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Originally Posted By: Centrarchid
Originally Posted By: Shorty
Northern BG x RES from a local lake, caught three of them this afternoon.



Are you certain that Pumpkinseed are not in that pond?


Yes quite certain, this lake was stocked with both BG and RES when it was built a few years ago. Pumpkinseeds are extremely uncommon in Nebraska with small populations found primarily in the north central part of the state in the sandhills. All three of the hybrids I caught had elongated pectoral fins typical of RES. Here is a write up on the lake.

http://magazine.outdoornebraska.gov/2015/03/new-reservoir/

https://www.nefga.org/forum/fishing-and-hunting/nebraska-fishing-forum/1125212-fish-id-help

https://www.nefga.org/forum/fishing-and-...-action-tonight

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Last edited by Shorty; 07/04/18 07:35 AM. Reason: Add stocking report for Prairie Queen


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Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Originally Posted By: snrub
Here is what I believe to be a RESxCNBG hybrid. Right at 10" length.

It is definitely a hybrid because the ear tab is not solid black like on a pure BG.

It lacks any green bars on the cheeks and it has a small mouth so I see no GSF involved.



John, I agree with your comments about lacking some of the HBG traits but one trait still seems to be present, the yellow margins on the caudal and ventral fins seem to display at least some GSF (or do CNBG also have yellow fin margins?). I thought RES traits are displayed in this fish also. dlowrance is going to post some photos of RESxGSF and wonder if any will look similar this specimen.


The things about the fish that say RES to me are the things that are not very reliable indicators. Not very clear in the picture but the mottled yellow on the cheeks look very much like the mottled yellow on my RES and Shorty's hybrid pictures. That and the eyes when I held it in my hand are what said RES to me but I also recognize that those are not very definitive or reliable fratures.

The pectoral fin is short, unlike RES.

I suppose it is also possible a RESxGSF hybrid crossed with a BG, giving a cross with only 1/4 GSF. That could explain multiple characteristics yet the mouth size more associated with RES or BG rather than the more typical large mouth we are used to seeing in anything crossed with GSF. The larger mouth seems to be a very dominant transferable trait of the GSF.

It is definitely a mutt.

One positive thing about mutts, they will bite a hook. Yesterday was really hot. Too hot to be fishing but I did anyway. The large BG were hardly biting. But the mutts and small BG were still willing to bite pretty well. It is a good time to do some culling and I did.

Last edited by snrub; 07/01/18 11:46 AM.

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I have made crosses involving Northern Bluegill with both Redear and Pumpkinseed; a lot of them over the years. Color pattern on flanks show spotting and opercula show radiating lines, both characters of Pumpkinseed which the Redear lacks. If Pumpkinseed are rare, then that sets the stage for hybrids involving it. Somebody does not have a good handle on what species are present in the lake.

snrub #493075 07/02/18 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted By: snrub
[quote=jpsdad][quote=snrub]

One positive thing about mutts, they will bite a hook. Yesterday was really hot. Too hot to be fishing but I did anyway. The large BG were hardly biting. But the mutts and small BG were still willing to bite pretty well. It is a good time to do some culling and I did.


In all my confusion of what may have created such a fish ... I forgot to comment on just how good it looks. Hefty and long and in good proportion. Just me maybe, but I wouldn't mind culling a BUNCH of fish like that.

Last edited by jpsdad; 07/02/18 03:42 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Centrarchid
I have made crosses involving Northern Bluegill with both Redear and Pumpkinseed; a lot of them over the years. Color pattern on flanks show spotting and opercula show radiating lines, both characters of Pumpkinseed which the Redear lacks. If Pumpkinseed are rare, then that sets the stage for hybrids involving it. Somebody does not have a good handle on what species are present in the lake.


Is this the type of "spotting" you are referring too? We are at the tail end of the primary spawnining season here. I'm confused, do you have pictures? Pumpkinseeds are rare in SE Nebraska. GSF on the other hand are in most watersheds, it would not be uncommon to find a few in new or renovated lakes around here but these do not look like GSF hybrids due to the elongated pectoral fins.




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Pumpkinseed with spotting pattern that is dominant. Also note lines on operculum.



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Very likely that there is more pumpkinseed genetics in that fish than RES.

Dave Willis researched pumpkinseed presence in the Nebraska SandHills lakes area. If you are interested see this article:

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1024&context=tnas

It would be useful to continue to fish those lakes near you to see if more pumpkinseed traits show up (more yellow on the belly, red on the ear tab, as per the picture just above this post)

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Omaha is a 3 to 4 hour drive from the where Dr. Willis's did his study and that is about as far south as their natural range is in the state. We do have orange spotted sunfish present in low numbers in the area but no pumpkinseed. The only way to know for sure would be to physically examine the gill rakers. Long time ago I took in what looked like a pumpkinseed in for a state record application, a physical examination of the gill rakers at UNL determined that is was a GSF x BG hybrid, a non standard cross from what most hatcheries do.



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Wowzers, I'm impressed that they can figure out a GSHxBG cross just by looking at the gillrakers!? That is some serious specialty skill to say the least!

I'm curious why do the pumpkinseed not like it in Omaha (or in Fort Wayne, IN, or other similar locations at that latitude?) IS it really the heat in summer compared to say northern NE or to the lakes an hour north of GR where we find pumpkinseed?


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Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
Wowzers, I'm impressed that they can figure out a GSHxBG cross just by looking at the gillrakers!? That is some serious specialty skill to say the least!

I'm curious why do the pumpkinseed not like it in Omaha (or in Fort Wayne, IN, or other similar locations at that latitude?) IS it really the heat in summer compared to say northern NE or to the lakes an hour north of GR where we find pumpkinseed?



Fisheries Biologist look at stuff like gillrakers, they vary quite a bit between sunfish in both length and numbers. I did check one of the lakes the SD paper was based on, that lake is 357 miles away and near the SD border and a 6 hour drive from Omaha.

Not sure why we don't have pumpkinseeds this far south, best guess is temperatures are too warm and not enough aquatic vegetation in most lakes in this part of the state, surface temps are already in the mid 80's now.

http://www.seagrant.wisc.edu/home/Default.aspx?tabid=605&FishID=21

Quote:
Gill Rakers
Bluegill 13-16, moderately long
Pumpkinseed 9-12, short and thick
Sunfish, Green 11-14, long and thin
Sunfish, Longear 9-11, short and thick
Sunfish, Orangespotted 10-15, long and thin
Warmouth 9-12, moderately long


BGXGSF Hybrid, notice the intermediate appearance of the gill rakers


BGXPumkinseed Hybrid, notice the intermediate appearance of the gill rakers.


GSF X BG Hybrid


Pumpkinseed X BG Hybrid



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I will add this link as well.

http://www.bigbluegill.com/m/blogpost?id=2036984%3ABlogPost%3A4024






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Looks like the hybrid kept the shorter pectoral fins of the BG.


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Are Orange-spotted Sunfish in the system from which hybrid of interest was sourced?

I am not keen on using morphological characters for determining direction of sunfish crosses. Mitochondrial DNA better suited for that.

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Originally Posted By: Centrarchid
Are Orange-spotted Sunfish in the system from which hybrid of interest was sourced?


OSS would be a remote possibility but the lake was built up in the hills, there is not much above where it was built. OSS are more likely to be found in the feeder creeks in river valleys. Sexually mature RES were stocked and LMB were the first fish stocked to clean out undesirables.




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Many surveys may ignore OSS like they do with mosquito fish and other species that not of fisheries value. The OSS does readily cross with NBG and the hybrid can have characters not unlike I suggested for the PS hybrid involving NBG.

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Originally Posted By: Centrarchid
Are Mitochondrial DNA better suited for that.


Can we get that kit from Wal-Mart? Or do we have to order it from Amazon? Does it use test strips? laugh laugh laugh crazy


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