Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Fish for a 1/4 pond...

That's exactly my thought - eaisest to manage is the LMB/BG/CC fishery. In my opinion it's not nearly as fun as the SMB/YP/HBG/RES route, though!

Moses

As happens with ALL of us, our original goals often change as we're presented with new information and accumulate knowledge. I recommend you reassess you goals and whether they've changed based on the feedback provided by the forum. We can get you wherever you want to go, as we've all been there collectively.

If you want a super low maintenance fishery, designed primarily for harvest, and don't intend on feeding you should go the route of BG, CC, LMB [possibly RES to vary fishery and help control parasite chain]. You should try to limit structure to allow your LMB and CC to manage your BG population as in Northern ponds this is often an issue. YP will likely have to be supplementally stocked if you have a predator heavy fishery. If you are only stocking 10 LMB and 20 CC, YP might make it on their own. Fewer fish species present means more simple fishery management strategy - fewer variables.

Now, if your goals are changing and you are considering a more active management approach you are opening up an entirely new set of fishery options. SMB/YP/RES/HBG? Would be a fun fishery. Throw in 10 HSB for angling opportunity - sure! Now structure becomes more important, as does forage base species selection and establishment - totally different set of variables to consider.

Bottom line you need to think about what you want to do, and don't feel bad if your goals are changing - it's natural and we've all been there...it's the sting of the pond/fishery management addiction! You're in good company.

Think this over, let us know. We'll get you there and enjoy the journey with you.

Well... yes, I'm starting to think I might meddle with this pond a little more than I originally planned to. I still mainly want a natural pond with fairly low maintenance, but LMB/BG/CC seems boring compared to what some of you guys are doing with your ponds. So, I'm pretty sure my goals will change over time. YP taste so good, I'd like to try some of them. And HSB would be really cool, but not sure the pond will be big enough. I would love crayfish, but I sure don't want holes in the dam...

The local ponds around here all seem to be muddy, or brown or green... not nice and clear like the ponds I fish up in the Adirondacks. So, that will be a goal too... a nice clear pond.

As for the 1 acre disturbance, we just built our house here a couple of years ago so it seems like I'm on a first name basis will all the township & county inspectors! Everyone gave me the same advice - don't disturb more than one acre!! The engineering firm says the same thing. So, I can live with a 1/3 acre pond. (Thanks Catmandoo for the link...)

This forum is awesome, I could spend all day reading and reading and reading...

LOL....welcome to the club! You're now on the first step, admitting you have a problem and are powerless to control it.

Here's my $0.02 worth. I think maintenance will be higher with a LMB/BG/CC pond than if you would use Feed Trained HSB/HBG/YP/RES and put a Texas Hunter feeder on the pond, with a Solar electric fence charger around it for bears.

The time you'll spend trying to keep the CC/LMB numbers in check will be greater than the time you spend once a month dumping $35 worth of AM600 in the feeder. All you do is have to keep track of what fish were removed/died during the year and restock that number the following year (HSB/HBG). The other fish will spawn in the pond. Double check on RES. I don't know if you can stock them in Pa. If you can't, then you could stock Pumpkinseeds in that case, although I don't know where to source them from.

RES are illegal to stock in PA. PS are far more prolific than RES, so they may not be a similar option.

Yeah, I just found that out about the RES. The local ponds have PS and they're fun to catch, not sure if they're tasty or not. GSF are illegal to stock here too, but I think HBG are ok which doesn't make sense to me. Would enough bass keep the BG and PS in check?

We don't have any bears right here, just fox and coyote. And raccoons, 'possums and cats.

Adding bass will control the sunfish, however you may have a hard time controlling the bass. Small ponds are very difficult to manage a BG/LMB fishery.

So, what's the easiest combination to manage in a small pond?

HBG/HSB/CC if you are willing to restock every so often and feed.

If you have ever seen a feeder go off in person or even on video you would pee your pants with excitement(maybe just me).

Interesting. When I was looking into it, I guess I got the wrong impression. I thought Bill Cody said it was harder to have a SMB fishery. Is that why you didn't include SMB in that mix, because thats where it becomes harder to manage. Maybe I crossed signals with restocking vs. management at that time. Of course I was also looking for a higher production of table fare that YP would not provide.

When you have a LMB/BG mix, and you let the LMB stunt/overpopulate to control the BG so they get bigger, is it so crucial/high management that the LMB still be heavily harvested?

f-n-c says ""I thought Bill Cody said it was harder to have a SMB fishery. Is that why you didn't include SMB in that mix, because thats where it becomes harder to manage."
For smallmouth to thrive (reproduce, recruit, & grow successfully) managing them becomes most difficult and time consuming for success when LMBass or BG are in the pond. Hypereutrophic, nutrient rich ponds with bluegreen algae problems and occassional DO sags can pose problems for survival of smallies. LMbass usually 'do' better long term in hypereutrophic ponds. Otherwise smallies seem to do 'okay' in most ponds including southern ponds. "Okay" is probably a relative term.

f-n-c: Moses first started at "So, my question is - Is this large enough to raise some fish for food & fun naturally (without feeding them pellets)and if so, what kind of fish? I'm in South East PA."

to

I'm thinking CC, BG and a few LMB might work.

then

What about YP, BG mix with no bass? FHM to feed the perch? My goal is to raise some fish for the freezer, and to have some fun with the ultralight flyrod.

Then sprkplug said something about RES and Moses reply was

The local ponds around here do have a lot of snails and mussels, would the RES help with that?

then in response to TJ

I still mainly want a natural pond with fairly low maintenance, but LMB/BG/CC seems boring compared to what some of you guys are doing with your ponds.

That's why I wrote my response. I took "natural" as balanced. My mistake. A LMB stunted pond is the eaiiest to maintain, but if the goal is food for the table, then I don't know if having a pond that is primiarly stunted LMB is the OP's end goal.

esshup - good points. It is hard to give best advice when the goal keeps changing.

Bill, I agree, but I listed them here to show the progression of changing goals. In my experience, that's a normal and common occurance. What happened in a few days of discussion here with the changing goals might have taken a number of years and countless $$ out of pocket if Moses had not found the forum.

This is what happens to a LOT of pond owners that don't have a wealth of experience with ponds. Not pointing fingers at anyone, but it's just what I've observed. There's so much information on here and in the magazine, and Pond Boss is so cutting edge, that pond owners don't even know enough about what's going on with pond management to know what questions to ask.

Thanks to all the pros here for helping us new pondowners to keep going in the right direction!!!! I have noticed this normal progression too, and each one that comes aboard with what to stock, etc, etc, always leads into more stuff learned by all. It's an awfully "big picture" when you become immersed into it. Wouldn't it be nice if there was some simple checklist that a new pond owner could go thru!!!!! However, people probably would not learn nearly as much that way.

Thank you....

My Grandma used to say, "Part of being smart is knowing what you're dumb at." Now before I found this forum, I knew I didn't know much about pond management. But now I know I don't know a whole lot!

So, sorry if I'm changing goals on you. Like esshup pointed out, I've already saved a bunch of time & dollars and I've barely started.

So, if I stick with my original goal of having a low maintenance pond (no feeder) for fishing and putting some fillets in the freezer... LMB/BG/CC? How do I avoid stunted bass? Stock fewer of them? Stock more BG, and don't provide places for them to hide? Add FHM every year? Can I still have some perch? I think my head hurts.

And to complicate things, my engineer went out on maternity leave - she had a baby girl this morning at 2:00AM...

Moses, I started a new thread in regards to the growth of stunted LMB. I didn't want to hi-jack this one. I didn't know that you would ask virtually the same question about the LMB. Might keep an eye on that thread, or the moderators could just move it all to here if it makes sense, or I can delete it.

thread

Cool, I'll check it out!

I feel the LMB/CC/BG combo will require the least intensive management, will provide the most return on fillets, will be the most self sustaining fishery since you DON'T want to use a feeding program. My recommendation is based on all those goals you stated...if you change one, fishery recommendation changes, too.

You may end up with a LMB heavy population, which will mean many stunted LMB and fewer, but trophy, BG. Or, you can end up with the inverse situation. You don't have to do anything to manage/change that situation if you can live with it. If you want a BALANCED fishery, it will require management of either population depending on which is out of balance. You can have a balanced fishery or imbalanced BG or LMB fishery - frankly I feel each scenario has it's merits. All depends on your goals. Culled LMB are fine for hot peanut oil and a skillet.

Moses, no need to apologize for changing goals. That's part of the process. I've found peoples goals in regards to their ponds change when more and more options open up to them. I feel that's a vital part of this forum - educating people so they can make the best decision they can on their ponds, based on the latest information that is available.

As for a check list, it might work, but I think a flow chart would be a better analogy. But, it'd be VERY complex. As Bill says, "It all depends". Change one thing, and it might take the pond goals on a completely different track.

Take a SMB/YP/RES pond with some HSB thrown in for good measure as a pond goal. Minimal management wanted, not a trophy pond, but good sized fish. Pellet trained fish is the plan to stock, with the exception of RES.

Now come to find out that RES aren't an option, so the pond owner now substitutes BG for the RES. They are almost the same thing, right? How does that change the management plan?

In my experience in MY pond, the biggest deciding factor in that statement is the amount of cover the BG have to hide in. Not just YOY fish, but all age classes.

Here's an instance where one thing, that isn't even a fish, can change the fish dynamics in a pond.

Remember 1/4 ac is not a lot of water (area) to grow very many fish for an annual harvest. The amount of fish biomass the pond will grow naturally without food inputs will depend on the natural fertility of the soil conditions where the pond is located. The fertility and alkalinity of the soil of the pond will determine the pond's natural fertility and thus the resulting carrying capacity which dictates how many pounds of fish the pond will be able to raise each year. This has a direct effect on how many fish can be safely harvested each year and still maintain a good fishery community balance.
For more background information about carrying capacity see the topic in the link to the Archives:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92440#Post92440

For an example of soil types and carrying capacity and generalized stocking rates see page 11 of the booklet Management of Small Lakes and Ponds in Illinois.
http://rockislandswcd.org/uploads/ManagementofSmallLakesandPondsinIllinois.pdf
In summary and in general a pond with alkalinity of 100ppm+ can grow per acre LMB 100 lb and BG 400 lb/ac,
Alk=50 to 100ppm then LMB 50 lb LMB and BG 200 lb/ac
Alk less than 50ppm then LMB 25 lb and BG 75 lb/ac.
From my experiences, these TOTAL fish weights are in reality usually a little or up to 1/2 less than the amounts reported in the book. Book amounts are IMO ideal conditions. Rarely are ponds ideal conditions without some human "adjustment". I find that the nutrients are often bound up in the macrophytes (weeds&FA) and clear water, or the pond is turbid with reduced plankton and in both cases the pond is not naturally composed of good productive plankton blooms which result in high fish biomass. Good natural plankton blooms result in the optimum fish biomasses referenced in the book/s.

Once we get a stable standing crop - carrying capacity of fish then a 20-25% harvest of each group of fish species is allowable. So "in theory" a 0.25 ac pond in low natural fertility (40ppm akalinity), 1.5-2.5 lbs of bass and 4-5 lbs of BG could be harvested each year and still have an acceptable balance of LMB-BG. More fish could be harvested if alkalinity was higher. In my experience this amount of harvest is a little on the high side for maintaining a good balanced quality fishery. The bass harvested would probably be in the 8"-12" range and the BG would be in the 5"-7" range.

Great info Bill. Now, in your estimation, if that fishery was changed to a HSB/HBG/YP fishery, with supplemental feeding, AND the fish that were stocked were feed trained, how would those atanding crop and harvest numbers change?