Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site Does this look like a good pond/raw land?

We have been looking for some property for a few months now and this past weekend my wife and I went to look at a 48 acre property with a 2.5 acre pond located just about in the middle of it. We like the layout of the property, we like the amount of woods on the property and we like the shape/look of the pond.

Here are my questions because we have never done a "raw land" purchase before and the seller is selling the property himself:

1. Perc test: The seller said there used to be one (located where we "envisioned" the house) and is more than happy to write in the contract that the sale is contingent on the Perc test coming back good. No issue here.

2. What should we look for in the pond? The dam looked good with no damp/wet spots behind it. There are some small (2-3" diameter) trees on the pond side of the dam that we would remove and the backside has some bigger 6-8" trees that I would look to remove. Nothing on the top of the dam. Are any of these deal breakers? Most of the trees on the damn are pines and maple trees.

3. The property is 60% open and 40% woods. The open areas are overgrown in weeds/pricker bushes, how expensive is it to clear/plant some seed on this scale? Obviously we wouldnt do any planting of seed until it was construction time for the house. My guess is that when the earth movers are there geting the property ready for construction, that grating/clearing the rest wouldnt be to much more cost.

4. There is power to the property but not run back to where we would have the house.

5. What do you recommend before we place an offer? Talk to a real estate attorney to make sure all the correct language is in the contract? Anything specific to add?

6. Anything else to look for/be aware of?

7. Anything else about the pond? Clarity was pretty good. Maybe 3-4 feet. There was not much vegatation in the water but lots of grass just outside of it. I didnt see any fish but there were plenty of frogs. Depth LOOKED to be about 4-5 feet as far out as I could see but I couldnt tell any more than that.

I added a couple pictures to show the pond, the trees on the dam and the brush if it helps with the advice.

Thank you for any advice/recommendations. Please be brutally honest!!!

Hey NC - great looking place and congrats on the find - it looks very nice. Here is my honest feedback from reviewing the photos:

Depth of pond is troubling. Looks pretty shallow with very gradual slopes - that can lead to many issues including excessive vegetation, winter or summer kill, and obviously droughts affect shallow BOWs much more than deeper ones - so that worries me, too.

I am concerned about the trees on the dam. Otto says any trees under 4" can be safely removed, anything over you have to leave them and hope for the best. Appears as though the backside of the dam has trees growing - I worry these could become an issue down the line. If a tree dies, it's roots rot, and this leaves a fissure in the dam which allows water a path to follow. Over time that can create larger leaks which could eventually lead to dam failure. We've seen that on the forum too many times...heartbreaking!

Buying a spread with an existing pond saves a lot of time and $ in planning/engineering your own - but this pond looks as though it's been around for a long time due to the apparent lack of depth, and has some potential dam issues with the trees growing there. It would be a bad scenario buying a pond then having to start all over with excavation and new dam construction.

If it were me I would accept the fact I'm going to have to rework the pond through excavation and dam work or find a different place and start from scratch building a pond of my own design. I'm not an engineer - just my two cents trying to look out for you. Really beautiful setting out there - I hope you can make it work!

I agree with TJ on alot of what he said. It looks like a gorgeous area/pond. And if you have fallen in love with it, some stuff can be worked out but might cost you additional money down the road.

My thoughts-

Get a boat and go out and see what the deepest area is that you can find and measure it. DONT rely on anybodys word. I would not buy it if I couldn't get them to let you do that.

The trees on the dam are troublesome. One good note is that the pine trees do not have a deep root system. They uaually are no more than a foot deep ( my dad had a nursery for most of his life). But the maple trees are a different story.

Do a ariel map search and see what the water depth looks like over the years. Is it constantly low? Has it ever dried up at some point? From the pics, I get the feeling the water is lower than normal. Is it from drought? will it come back up to get more depth to the whole pond?

The brush/briars could be mowed off. Not a big deal if it is taken care of soon. You will probably need a farm tractor in taking care of this much property. Get a brush hog with it. I would buy an old mower, beat the heck out of it cutting the stuff off(up to about an 1" dia) and then get a nice mower once you get it under control.

NC Appraisers (2) in my area of alabama would not give me any extra value on a property with a pond like that for financing purposes in 2011. That can also be a barging chip to drive a purchase price down and then take what you get and work with it.

Looks like a beautiful place.


I assume it has access to a water utility?
If not, are wells successful in the area?

About how far will the electric need to come from where it is?
Also see if a neighbor has a pole that's closer and maybe you
could get a line easement and save money. That's what we did.

How much if any of the total acreage is in a "flood plain"?

Is any of the property fenced?

Last Spring we bought a little over 70 acres that had a lot of over-growth and have had some locals cleaning some of it up. Depending on what you want, you should be able to find some local guys at a decent price that are "hungry" and anxious to get some work. We always give them give a summary of what we want done and ask for a turn-key bid so they don't drag the hours on and on.

Have you asked about property taxes? Ag exemptions, ect....?

You may inquire about internet access out in that area.
But I suppose now there is always the I-Pad.

Thanks for the input so far! A lot of good points.

I was also worried a little about the size of the trees on the dam and the depth of the pond. Maybe I will take a trip back up to see if I can get a canoe out there to measure the depth all around so I KNOW how deep it is.

Looking at Google Earth, all the way back to 1993 the size doesnt change much from season to season. It did appear to be maybe 6-12" low right now which doesnt seem horrible since it is basically the end of the summer. With that said though, 6-12" is a lot when there are shallow areas.

Guess I need to "worst case" scenerio it and find out what it would cost to clean up/rebuild the dam and increase the pond depth by a few feet.

I have a one acre pond, about the same depth, that is scheduled to begin being cleaned out next week. Right now I plan to have him work 40 hours with his big excavator at $175 and hour. I doubt that he'll get the entire acre dug out in that time. I'll probably add new info to this thread.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=22609&Number=286702#Post286702

Last year we bought a similar sized tract with an older pond with a tree-encrusted dam. Some pines in excess of 24" DBH. We were able to get the price dropped a significant amount by hiring a reputable engineer to come out and analyze the dam and give us a report for suggested remediation. The report cost us about $1,000 but saved us nearly $50k.

That was money well spent.

-RFL

You got the sale price of the property reduced?

Reworking the pond would include breaching dam to drain the pond. Removing all trees from dam and rebuilding it - might require a new core. Then comes the excavation work to add depth/structure to your pond.

My WAG would be $10k for the dam work.

Figure excavation at $175/hr or $1.75/cyd dirt moved. Think you'd be better off renting the equipment and moving dirt yourself - excavation should be much easier than dam work IMO.

I think I'd prepare for at least $15 - $20k at best. I would review that bid with the land owner and see if there's some room to negotiate. Maybe he would offer to split with you and drop the price $10k?

Really nice chunk of ground there and some great advice from the guru's around here.

Knowing what i know now the trees would bother me a bit,although before finding this site not as much.Definitely not a deal breaker in my book though.If you think about it in the absolute worst case you MIGHT have to rebuild it at some point in time.In my experience that would still be a whole lot cheaper and less red tape then a new pond in most cases
I also have to second the buy a tractor comment,after having one you'll soon wonder how folks survive without one

good luck

That is what I was suggesting also. Often people have realestate marked up for ponds ect.. When a service involved or is brought into the purchase says that "the trees compromise the pond damn and make it to risky to count as any value" you have bargaining power. You can then generally get a quote for the cost(the higher the better) to do repairs and often negotiate the land owner into giving you a decrease in purchase price. When the land owner and realestate company have been notified that there is an issue with a sale listing they then would run a risk selling it to the next person without disclosing the potential issue or making repairs. How often are you going to get the same price telling someone something is wrong with it and I still want the same price I was asking before I found out.

What would you do if you purchased a property from people and found out after a dam broke that the people selling it had been informed the dam was bad and had not told you before selling it to you?

I need to correct myself a bit. Some pine trees do have deeper roots, but most are not as bad as hardwood trees. It's the famous "it depends" per species.

Other thoughts....

It may pay to find out from the proper authorities if you would be allowed to renovate the pond. You may find out that it is now protected or regulated. Your probably ok, but worth looking into if renovation is a deal breaker to buy or not.

A lot of folks here say that renovation costs just as much as building a new pond. That can go one way or another depending on what is needed. However, you can enjoy the pond "as is" till the rest of your life settles down a bit, and then improve it when you can have more time/cash. Find out what that depth is, thats the first concern if it will keep fish and if it needs immediate renovation. The dam would be the next on the renovation list. If its deep enough, you could get by for "x" number of years till that dam needs work.

Knowing the depth of the pond will also tell you if you could siphon-drain it without cutting thru the dam to drain it. Is the pond bottom higher than the backside of the dam where it drains?

How about getting a pond builder out there right now to give you a ballpark idea of what a full renovation may cost? Might use that as a bargaining chip also....

Agree with everything said so far. If you like the woods, make sure it doesn't get logged before you buy it.

I 2nd the thought of getting an engineer/pond guy out there to get his take on it. Pictures are great, but there's nothing like a hands-on look.

Good point on the woods/timber. That is always the first thing to go when people are selling out.

Suggestion: Send these photos to Mike Otto along with a request to chat briefly with him. He's co-owner of Pond Boss, an expert in his field of pond building, and an all around incredible guy - he will review and give you his recommendations on how to start. If your heart is set on this property, I feel you should do the following in regards to the pond:

1. Email/call Mike Otto request brief meeting
2. Follow his instructions, which will probably include contacting an engineer and pond construction professional for a bid
3. Submit bid[s] to seller and ask for consideration to share costs

All the other info here is important too...but has been covered by everyone already. I'm focusing on the elements I am familiar with as I've been through this same process.

I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet, but try and meet the potential neighbors, talk about who is expecting to hunt there, etc. etc. You want to know if you buy the place are you going to have to deal with people who resent you for a variety of issues.

There was a time not too long ago when our town made the papers (before I moved here) from some very prejudiced people. It wasn't pretty. Apparently if it was something as simple as being new in town, you could hardly get service at the grocery store. Luckily most of those type have passed away or have been swamped out by us Newbies.

Recently I have had to deal with a nasty "All farm-able Land Belongs to us!" type farm family that has lived here for generations that seems to think that I desecrated his farmland that they used to work by putting a pond and grass on it. Never mind someone sold it 50 years ago, and the land has since been worked to death.

Almost went to fisticuffs with the SOB before he got my point. He threatened to breach the dam simply because I had the nerve to talk to my neighbor who he is renting land from about drainage, fertilizers, and pesticides. I think he is a bit worried I may find some wrong-doing.

Needless to say it is all recorded, and if he tries something (I don't think he will), I will have a larger pond out of it when he needs to fix it. Technology rules on these smartphones. Got pictures, the whole 9 yards.

-Mark

Good fences make good neighbors. Sad but true. Trespassers are not welcome, but friends that request permission are rarely turned away.

I completely feel you on that one Mark. My brother and I bought a piece down in southern Virginia about ten years ago. The neighbors heard that we were from New Jersey and they just about blew their stack.

When we first got down there, there were people pissy about us putting up fence. Some clowns turned a couple of cow calf pairs we had loose. The sheriff was no help.

So, you do what you have to do sometimes. This was before camera phones were in everyone's pocket. So, we went around to every neighbor within 20 miles. We took pictures of marijuana fields, whiskey stills, "massage parlors", and other things and you know that we haven't had a lick of trouble since. LOL.

Now we rent the whole piece to a fella that grows hay. He lives in the doublewide that we put on and all I can say is thank god for agent orange, because having a vietnam vet that's brain is half kicked in the ass is a sure fire way to keep people off your land LOL.

I really do wish everyone the best of luck when they move. My neck is redder than most, but some rural areas ain't kind on anyone new moving in. Its like they're afraid that we're gonna put some branches on their family trees LOL.

greatwhiteape, If agent orange affected somebody in your family, you should be thanking god they're still alive(hopefully). That was a wicked chemical and I have many friends who were affected by it. I'd love to see you say that their brain is "half kicked in the ass" right to their face.

Your statement doesn't make him look tough....It makes you look stupid!

Sorry mods...but it pisses me off. Delete my post or ban me if you want to. I have too many vet friends to read something as idiotic as that.

And if I can, I will have them read this thread and post.

Let's all be cool and turn this thread positive.
It's sad that so many today do not realize the sacrifices that our servicemen and women have made, in the past and in the present.

Pray for our family members presently in harms way in service to our country.
George

Amen

I don't wish to become embroiled in this situation, but having the courage to be the first to speak out against what is perceived as wrong is not always easy. I have been that lone individual before myself.

I wondered if I was the only one yet again, when I first read GWA's post yesterday afternoon. Now I see I'm not.

I agree with George, it is sad.

We need to turn this post around and keep it positive. I hope that GWA didn't intentionally cause any ill will. Sometimes we write things in posts and they can be interpreted in a wrong way too quickly. If I recall properly, NCMike(the one we should be helping in this post), is in the service.He has been asking for help here while serving our country overseas.

LETS GET BACK TO HELPING HIM FIND A POND TO CALL HOME
Thank you NCMike for all that you have done....

I prefer to believe that the post about agent orange was just a "redneck" way to say that his renter was just crazy enough to stand up for proprty rights. I know that some of my neighbors think that I am crazy, and they may be right! Enough said.