Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations OMG! To much fertilizer: incredibly green!

Ok, I have not been sitting on my hands, I actually left the property yesterday seeking some help as you folks have suggested. My wife took me to several outlying towns, in what we thought were most likely under our area of responsibility for the Department of Natural Resources, DOA, and any others we though could help.

As it turns out, we hit every town but the appropriate one for our area, however, they were very helpful and discovered that there are no people in our area that have any experience or relationship with ponds, at least close by, however, there is a person they gave me the number of that I will speak to today that is located about 60 miles away. In some cases they will even come out and test the water for you, although I do not know what the conditions for that are yet. I have no problems with sending it off to be tested, but locally they may have some information to this area that could be of benefit to me. Geeze, ANY information will be of benefit to me! As an example of what I am up against locally, we stopped and inquired about alum in three different major ( well, the largest in these towns anyway ) feed/farming supply just in case. Not only did we draw a blank and would not be able to even order it from any of them, two of the places had no idea what alum is. I LOVE small towns , and have never been able to live in a city, but when they get real small, sometimes you gotta give a little

Additionally, on the chance I am overfeeding I have cut the amount I am feeding by 2/3. I still have no way of knowing if I am overfeeding or not, and the 15 minute rule, as I have stated before, is kinda off the table here since they wipe it out in a flurry in the first 3 minutes or so. However, the vast majority of that Aquamax is being gobbled down by the CC anyway, and since I need to get the large fish out as has been pointed out to me, no point in making them even bigger ( which Aquamax seems to do rather fast compared to the normal catfish food ) and even tougher to get out of the pond. I suppose one downside to this tactic is that if they are still very hungry they may work over the BG population pretty hard.

I have put up a bunch of photos and 2 short videos of the ponds on Photobucket, and I have what is SUPPOSED to be a direct link to them. However, it may or may not work, I have only used this site one time long ago and I really have no idea what I am doing ( don't say it .. so if the pictures cannot be accessed for the link, PLEASE let me know right away so I can go back in and figure out how to make it right. The photos do show how green it is, but I was unable to really show the size, and that is where the videos will help. They are not big, the larger pond is just a click short of 100 yards long, but all kinds of width, mostly over 6' deep, smaller pond is only about a 45 yard circle, not as deep.

The pond (S) are as green as the trees. I incorrectly noted that the tree stump was only 2" under the water in one video, but that was wrong, it is 4" under to the top of the tree stump. I think you can see how faded it is for being that shallow, as well as the algae covering it as well. It is a small cut tree, should show up pretty well at such a short depth. Also, as you can see in the videos and the pictures, I was still adding water from the well, and this was the end ( I shut it off right after I finished the video ) of a 7 day run, so the pond had an addition 300,000 gallons of water in it, which always helps the clarity for a short time a bit.

I hope this works, it took the old gal ( my PC, not my wife over 3 hours to upload the two videos. They are all there, so if this link does not work and you cannot see all the pics and the two videos, please let me know ASAP and I will figure something out. Thanks again for all your assistance and patience, I am following up on everything that I was instructed. I will call Shawn the minute I know the pics are up so he can see what I am talking about.

Hey, how bout this post!! One you can actually read and not have to shave, eat a few meals and catch a few winks before you are able to finish it!!

http://photobucket.com/catbird84

Pretty green alright but I'm not sure it is lethal. I'm judging by the pic of the stump.

Can you get someone to do a sechi test? A sechi disk can be a white or silver piece of plastic or metal that is lowered, via a weighted string/cord, into the pond. When it disappears you know the clarity. Ideally, it should be between 16 to about 24 to 30 inches. A round top of a coffee can or paint can top is what I generally use.

I am working on that also. I ran one ( and have since lost the rig I made up for the test ) earlier this summer and it was only 8 to 10 ". Right after I add the three to five hundred thousand gallons of water to the pond, it will gain some clarity, then grow worse each day until I begin the process all over again.

I haven't seen anyone weigh in yet on that issue, the nearly 3/4 of million gallons of water a month in the hot summer and what effect it may be having on keeping me out of even more trouble. I certainly don't know enough to make the call, it just seems to me that if it is sitting there brewing ( as I suspect ) and feeding on that intense sunlight and the water temp continues to climb, if I did not have the ability to add so much very cold clear fresh water ( which is helping keep the pond temps within reason ), I fear it would become even greener and the bloom so dense it would be unlivable.

Sure won't stop adding the water to try and find out, I am not that curious

eeshup, thanks for the Google map measuring tool, I had no idea there was anything out there that was so easy. As I suspected, the pond is not as large as I once thought, or was told by the good folks that dug it. Only .59 in size. I believe the formula they use when trying to determine acre size for a pond was a more traditional length / width / and average DEPTH, which, if they go by that, even though the surface area never changes, the acre size they say the pond is will grow based on how deep they have dug the pond.

I did google this method back when the pond was dug, and it is a legitimate way to determine acre size, but I don't think it really has that much application for pond owners, since it is possible to have a pond with the same surface area such as mine, but very deep, and a rather false reading of a 1+ acre pond. The problem with that is ( and when we were looking for places to buy seven years ago, we saw places with ponds that were 70 feet deep ! ) from what I understand and even have seen in my small pond to some degree, much of the water in a deep pond goes unused or is unappealing to the fish for various reasons, so the label of a one acre pond would be not be very useful using that method of determining size.

I really like this tool you have passed on to me. I was able to look at our backyard surrounding the pond, which we have long guessed at 5 to 7 acres ( with NO idea at all if we were even close,) and it turns out it is 5.5 acres. Thanks so much!

I have some additional information as requested by members. First, the sketch test, as expected did not produce very good results. I used the lid of a five pound can, painted it white, and lost sight of it a mere 8 to 10 inches down. I have done similar tests in years past, all with the same results, not any worse, not any better, with the exception of winter. And the first few days after adding 300,000 thousand gallons of water, there is slight improvement.

Also, I have attached, well, assuming I have done this correctly, a few pics that show one of the BG that was caught a few weeks ago. The fish is actually significantly larger than the photo can do justice, as this guy is 6'6" tall and has the hands of a creature to be feared! As for the CC, they are the average size of what I call our "middle class" of cats, they are about 50% of the population, with the rest a combination of assorted smaller CC of all sizes, and perhaps 5 that I can identify that have been in the pond since day one ( and perhaps before that, the older pond I am thinking, since it had CC in it before I dug the new pond ) that may be another 40% larger than these. However, given the size of the ponds and the fact that due to the feeders which attract every fish in the pond with the exception of the bass, I am able to get a pretty good count on the population. After reading everything in these posts, forum articles as well as PB articles, combined with the fact I have left this pond on its own with nearly no help in the way of stocking its entire life save for a few very small plants, I am quite confident the pond is far from overpopulated.

That is good news. And, more good news is that we catch all the fish in all sizes, from as small as possible that can get on a hook, to very large, so there appears to always be some type of spawn occurring. I also contacted the state Conservation Dept for help, and they will do an on site visit the 23rd, although based on the comments I got from Shawn I am not to sure that those good folk are all that comfortable with pond management, as I was instructed to do something that would have proven to be a disaster. I cannot fault them, as it was pointed out to me, which I was well aware of, they have to wear many hats, and just can't be on top of everything.

Speaking of Shawn, I contact him as instructed, and like an idiot, sent the request for help and THEN discovered he had just suffered a terrible loss. My attempt to send an immediate apology and request to ignore my plea for help was to late, a testament perhaps to the kind of guy he is, he had already taken the time to provide a detailed answer to my questions despite his own personal issues and helped me avert a possible further mess based on instructions I got from the MDOC.

The picture of the bass will show what has happened to them. Bass have been in the ponds for years, even before the new pond was dug, but they are never any bigger than this. Before I managed to turn the water so dark it is hard to see your own hands in the water when you swim, I was told that larger bass were caught out of the much smaller pond years before, of course, that pond was very clear as compared to what they are now. I have read many articles over the years in PB that states that in very murky/unclear water bass, and other predators that rely on sight can have a tough time earning a living, and often come up on the lean side. Some articles are focused on the LMB, and the low body weight associated with this problem. I may well be wrong, but I think that the water in my pond is so very green and difficult to see in, I believe it is just to hard for the bass to find enough of the many forage fish available to them of all sizes to earn a respectable living. I know that bass have more tool in their arsenal than just eyesight alone, but I think perhaps it may not be quite enough. However, this is just my best guess based on all that I have been able to research over the years and what I have observed in the pond, I defer to you folks for a far more educated opinion than my own.

Shawn was able to connect me to a place that I think I can finally get the water tested. That has proven to be a bigger challenge than I ever thought it would be, I was wondering if it is just me ( almost certainty is or if anyone else has had some trouble in my area. I mean, yea, I can get a simple water test with pool testing equipment, but nearly all the links I follow for a complete water analysis prove to be dirt testing, not water. When I asked the MDOC for any help in locating sources for testing my pond water, it was met with a very surprised "WHY"? Not only did they not have any ideas on where I could send my water, they had never heard of such a thing, had no idea why or for what I would even be testing the water, and could only suggest that if I really insisted on doing so ( which clearly they felt was ludicrous, a waste of time and money, and would prove of no value ) I should just buy a pool test kit.

I do not judge them for such a response, as I stated earlier, both Shawn and I agree that with all they have on their plate, they cannot be experts on all subjects, and this is just one representative of their department. However, this is the same person that will do the on site visit on the 23RD and has already advised me to dose the pond with copper sulfate, a potentially big mistake, inviting a fish kill as my pond is to green, and the water is to hot, as Shawn noted. So I fear that perhaps this person may not be to familiar with the subject. Still, I am glad they have taken enough of an interest that they want to come out on site to review it further.

I have shut the feeder off as Shawn has advised for now.
I have tried to follow up on everything everyone has suggested so far, I will come back with the water sample results when they are available. I want to thank everyone again for everything, I appreciate it so very much. A special thanks to Shawn, who took the effort to help me at a very difficult time in his life. Hats off!

If that's the average BG and bass, it looks like a bass heavy pond. If true, they can't make a living on fatheads and small BG. They need food that is 1/4 to 1/3 their body length. If I'm right, a significant number of bass need to be eliminated.

I doubt that it is the water color that keeps the bass from feeding. I've known of extremely muddy lakes that raise really nice bass.

I follow you Dave, but I am confused by one thing. As I mentioned, we seem to have a great many BG of all sizes, when fished, ( albeit not nearly as often as many ponds are ) it is a nuisance to have to continually remove BG of all sizes, it SEEMS that the pond continually has a supply of BG that are of all sizes ( apparently the product of multiple spawns over time? ) and a great many BG are caught that are not big enough to keep, but much larger than the minnow size.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it all makes perfect sense what you are saying, but the pond appears to have plenty of the food exactly the size you are describing, at least, that is what is constantly pulled in and has to be tossed back in, they are so plentiful that there appears to be no heavy predators working them over.

Could it be, especially in light of the fact that I have only planted bass one time nearly 7 years ago, and only 100 then, that the pond is LIGHT on bass? They are almost NEVER caught, in fact only one in 7 years by me, and only one by all others combined in those years also, and that included a LOT of folks tossing lures TRYING to catch them, along with lure fishermen trying to catch large BG. I should point out though, that despite my failure to stock, every year some small spawns of bass are caught while fishing for BG, around 6" and the small fish are seen each spring basking in the sunlight. I see them start out very small, just big enough to identify as bass, and continue to see them in small groups of 3 or 4 until they reach that 6" size or so, playing around with the Aquamax when it hits the surface, attacking bugs, etc.

However, the one time I pulled in the one guy that does know how to catch bass, he was able to pull in a mess of them over several hours. Not with every cast by a long shot, he had to work for them, but still. I might mention something at this point that I failed to mention earlier. I have stated earlier often that the ponds are so seldom fished, and that is so true. However, after thinking about that, I came to the conclusion ( on my own, oddly enough that the big CC had to go, and perhaps even some of the large BG, but only a small portion, should also be harvested, since I worried that with the tough summer I knew we were in store for and the possible overcrowding that might exist in the pond, I might need to do something about it.

So for this spring, and summer, I let a group of young guys hit it as hard as they could, with the exception of not keeping all the large BG, only a portion, but get out the CC. They fished the pond more this year than the first 6 combined, ( you see one example of a BG from that giant of a man holding it, and the two medium CC they caught that afternoon ) and time after time, they were pestered with having to remove small to medium size ( the apparent perfect size you are referring to for bass chow ) BG from the lines for each large BG they could keep, not just the first time. While they probably caught some of the same fish again, in order to try and avoid that, they moved around away from the area the fish seem to stay ( feeder area ) and ran into the same issue. They still caught a LOT of large BG, ( could this be the great BG pond I wanted in the first place ? ) but also a lot of small and medium size fish. The CC are another story, like me, the CC were just much smarter for the most part on most trips than the guys could ever hope to achieve

I am sorry for my confusion, as you can see, I sometimes cannot make sense of what appears to be conflicting information, and the OCD in me goes crazy trying to nail down the answer. I know that sometimes there just is not a clean one.

What is your thoughts on this? Same, considering the pond appears full of the size and species fish you mentioned the bass need to grow? Any other thoughts or possibilities? And If I do indeed have to reduce the bass population, can you direct me to any possibilities or ideas on how I might be able to accomplish that, given that I not only lack the skills but the physical ability to make a dent in them even if I could catch the tricky devils? The guy that can catch them is a long way off, I cannot find another person within 20 miles of me that can do it..............I know how that sounds, and I am sure there are folks out there, just not any of the various people that have given it their best so far. I keep thinking that if the bass are hungry for whatever reason, cloudy / green water or overcrowding, if there are a lot of them in the pond, there should have been a lot more of them caught even by accident considering the lures tossed in after them and the BG over the years.. you think? I appreciate your time and ideas! Thanks Dave for your patience with what must seem like a bit of a pest, I really don't mean to be, and I fear I am becoming one for not grasping all of this as quickly as I should. I apologize...

CB, the bluegill of all sizes also confuse me. So do the fathead minnows. Those things generally disappear after the first year. And yet, like you say, the bass that caught are not getting adequate nutrition.

I bet that you do have bigger bass. However, both they and catfish are notorious in ponds for becoming hook shy. Heck, my smaller bass have even gotten hook shy. I eliminate any bass that is under 14 inches and stupid enough to get caught.

Yea, been thinking bout that. Since the vast majority of what little fishing over the years has been for BG and CC, with an occasional guy or gal trying for bass buy having no idea what they were doing ( AKA...ME ) they have received so very little pressure while I guess it is possible, it seems unlikely that a species that is very seldom even hooked and lost would become hook shy. Now I may be way off base here, my expertise lies in hunting, not fishing, and I am thinking how animals act for the most part. I have found that most living things have to be conditioned to either do or stay away from things, and it just doesn't seem the bass population getting near enough exposure to fishing for that to happen.

When the one guy that could catch them ( and his wife ) spend a couple of hours, they caught about ( I have completely forgot how many exactly....meds wipe my memory every few days it seems ) approx 12-15 keepers in 3 hours of hard fishing, casting lure after lure in every square inch of the pond. Every single bass was the exact same size ( much like the one in the photo, perhaps a bit larger, but just as slender ) with the exception of the occasion 6" spawn, nearly the size of the lure they were fishing with.

For what it is worth, they have been catching bass their entire lives, probably could be semi pro, fish all over MO and AK, and they used only certain colors of lures when fishing. When I asked them why they did not try some of the others during lull periods, they remarked that the water was so very thick/green/murky, they had to get a rattle trap lure close to the bass in this mess, also why they thought they had to make so many casts, they had to almost drop the lure on the bass's head to ensure a lock on the lure. Like you, they felt there were plenty of bass in the ponds, but as they noticed that there were plenty of small and medium size BG and FHM all over ( they had to pull off medium size BG off their big bass lures often ) they were also of the opinion that the bass had more than enough to eat and the terrible visibility issues was the only explanation they could come up with for the skinny bass all of the same size. They were not able to catch a single bass even an inch larger than another. All about 14-15".

In the end, it was their opinion that the pond held ample numbers of bass, that the bass were somewhat difficult to catch due to the water condition ( very green / visibility ) and that when they used rattle trap lures that made enough noise for the bass to home in on the lure, they had high success. When they tried a variety of dull colored / dark lures, they had no strikes at all. They claimed to have had this happen before in muddy ponds, not really green ponds, rather muddy, but same principal they believed, bass were unable to find the lures unless dropped very near to them in such poor clarity water. Well, that was their opinion anyway, and with one bass to my credit in 7 years, as you can imagine , I was in NO position to dispute ANYTHING they said

I don't know what to make of it. I have always thought you were right, the pond LOOKS like it should be holding a big bass in there....somewhere. They have been left alone, have lots to eat,( I believe anyway ) etc and I have always wondered about that. As I write this I have a call into the bass guy, I am trying everything to get him back down to have a go at the pond and see what happens when he tries to hit them hard again. Even ONE big bass would be encouraging. I have a concern that with only one planting of only 100 small fish many years ago that the pond may still be bass light, but I am unable to explain each year the large number of bass spawns all over the pond, they apparently are not only doing fine without any aid from me, they may have produced to may by themselves.

And, yet, even so, they still have plenty of grub on the table. IF..they can catch it. I am still reluctant to dismiss al the PB articles over the years regarding low bass weights and pond clarity.

This may illustrate best of all what I am talking about. On Monday, when I went into the MDOC, I picked up all the printed literature available on ponds, water, etc. Listen to this, printed on "Pond Management Series"

"For example, bass 28 months old in five experimental CLEAR ponds weighed almost FIVE TIMES as much as bass of the same age in the five MUDDY ponds" They explained they kept the rest of the conditions the same, temp, food available, etc.

This would seem to support those articles I have read over the years. I am confused ( I think you can see how that can happen ) and am still trying to sort out what to do.

Thanks so much for the help, I would most certainly be wandering around in the dark without it!

Cat, any new developments? I agree with Dave (and you) that there are probably a couple of big bass in the pond. A few years back I bought a place that had 1/3A pond on it - nobody had fished it in years. I fished it a couple of times and caught small bass. We built a bigger pond (3.5A) below, it and drained the the small pond into it. There were two 7.5lb LMB in the little pond - and a huge snapper.

Well, I have followed up on every suggestion that was offered, including the ones that did not appear in the posts that came from Shawn directly through IM. There has not, of course, been any change, the pond continues to be so green that it is actually brilliant and very colorful, makes for a pretty picture in the right light....but not what I am after at all.

I am still open to any remaining suggestions that might come in from anyone now that I was able to post the videos and pictures that had been requested. Other than that, the two remaining items that are still pending is the on site review from the MDOC on the 23rd and the results of the water test, which raises another question.

I performed the google search as instructed and found many options for do it your self kits for what appears to be the major problem factors that need to be addressed, and I have found a few labs that will give me a detailed report in about as much detail as I want, depending on the level I request. I used to own a large in ground pool for years, and am very familiar with water testing kits, one worry I have with the "do it your self' kits is that they depend on matching color, but this water is already so cluttered with material and murky I am wondering how difficult that may be? I am more than willing to pay a lab to do it and perform a detailed test ( which, of course, I will need some help with This is an example of a lab I am considering and the tests they will run, I would get the last one, ( D ) the full package as long as I am going this way, IF you folks feel that perhaps at least for the first time the water is tested a lab should do it? Whatach think?

Water Analysis

Submit 1 pint (16 oz.) of water per sample, and fill to the top

Test Desired


F
Fish Pond Water Suitability Analysis (Submit 1 quart (32 oz.) per sample and collect with a clean glass or plastic bottle. Select a clean spot around the pond, hold the container under water and let it fill completely. Be sure there are no air bubbles left in the bottle. Continue to keep the bottle underwater as you securely replace the lid.) Includes: pH, Hardness, Dissolved Oxygen (DO), Total Alkalinity, Bicarbonate and Carbonate Alkalinity, Nitrate-Nitrogen, Nitrate, Sulfate, Total Dissolved Salts (TDS), Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium, Sodium, Chloride, Copper, Manganese, Zinc,Iron, and Total Phosphate (P2o5).....$69
Optional Testing (Can only be added to above test package)

A
Acidity.....$10

M
Ammonia.....$10

N
Nitrite.....$10

C
Carbon Dioxide.....$10

E
Electrical Conductivity (EC).....$10

D
Complete Diagnostic Evaluation Test Includes: The Standard Test (F) above plus all the options listed above.....$90

Cat, I'd go with "D", also. You're heading in the right direction. Between the site review and the water test, you should have a pretty good idea of what is needed. Hang in there you're getting close...

Your water is not that bad. Ours has been like that before. You have a strong plankton bloom. F is all you need.

Ok, at the risk of really beating this thing to death, I do finally understand I have a strong plankton bloom, I suspected that from the beginning, and as some of you have mentioned, your have ponds have appeared that way in the past also. I suspect that this summer, with the intense heat, the ponds that did managed to survive intact without substantial water loss may have a very strong bloom this summer also, maybe even for the first time if the ponds have been well managed in the past.

However, that is not what has me really puzzled. I do understand how and why that might happen. What I am STILL having a difficult time wrapping my head around is why this pond is ALWAYS in that same condition, year round, with the exception of the very coldest months when it freezes over, year after year, always in the same condition, after a 16 month run of beautiful conditions years ago, which, once again, I changed in the course of a few days, to never again come even close to the normal prior status.

You mentioned that the water is not that bad ( clarity ) but from the material I have been able to uncover in PB and these forums I am still confused on that subject as well, I was under the impression that 10" or less is not generally considered ideal or even "good" condition for pond water to be in....am I off base on that also? I would understand if it were to get that way for a month or two during very hot months, but to stay that way all year every year seems to go against all that I have read about water conditions that we should strive for in order for our fish to flourish.

I guess I am saying that I understand that answers ( and even written material on the subject ) will vary, and because of that I am kinda still in a little in doubt still as to if I should take any action at all. I really am tired of water I cannot see my hand in if I hold it underwater, we want to enjoy the pond and we want the fish to be happy ( and, with the exception of the bass, if I keep feeding them Aquamax, they appear to be plenty happy ) so I am not sure which way to turn. By the way, as instructed by Shawn, I have stopped the feeders.

Although I do have an onsite visit from the agent from the MDOC scheduled on the 23rd, as I mentioned, I do not expect them to be able to contribute to much to the equation. Shawn pointed out to me that my water is to green and the water is to hot to dare take the action I was told to take by them ( copper sulfate treatment now, every 2 weeks after that ) and they were not to keen on my seeking advice from PB, a real surprise to me, I am gonna try and find out why when they get here.

We are saving for a aeration system, and I think I hear from most of you that it certainly cannot hurt ( although trying to install it ourselves might! ) and perhaps the water sample will tell us more! I used to think that the large CC were perhaps another major factor in the clarity issue, since we have a clay bottom pond and some of them seem to think they are marlins with the air time they catch during feeding. However, water samples taken at different times of the year in large, clear jugs and allowed to set in the house while we observed them only shows ( to our eyes, the water test may well prove us wrong! ) a jug saturated with bits of suspend algae, and given enough time ( up to a week or more ) all of it settles to the bottom in a fine green layer, leaving otherwise clear water.

Additionally, with the input from all of you along with the additional research I have been able to gather has led me to the conclusion that I do not have as many of ANY species of fish in the pond as we have thought all along. I think perhaps one factor that has misled us is that since the pond is so seldom fished, and finding food MIGHT be a problematic issue for a lot of fish, along with not being hook shy, most fish, with the exception of the CC ( and bass of course ) are very quick to take any offering, leading us to believe the pond is stuffed with fish. However, since it is very easy to actually count the number of large CC at feeding time, and even the medium size fish, as well as watching the activity from the BG feeder, it is clear ( well, if anything is clear to us that the pond is far from carrying capacity, and that would make sense I guess considering we do not stock it. Still, all of the fish are spawning at a rate I don't think I dare stock it except perhaps BG, another post someday....

The heat has finally taken a break, I will try the shrimp idea for the large CC and see if we can get Moby or one of the others outta there, thanks for the tip! Thanks again to all of you for your remarks, I deeply appreciate you patience with me, you must have a lot of it!

Make a secchi disc ( see this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secchi_disk ) and get some pics like these. From your pics I would guess yours is about 12-14 inches.

See this thread it may help.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=259527&page=1

new lake




Lake 2 old





Lake 3 Murhead - the brown one

For more Secchi disk information see this from our Archives:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92624#Post92624

Thanks both of you. On 7/31 Dave asked me to do such a test and I did. In the years past, I had learned from PB articles how to make such a device and conduct the test, although deciding when to say " no longer can see it" is kinda a subjective thing, and I have noticed that it is different from person to person, as I had uh..er.. um..ok YOUNGER and stronger eyes help me with the test on a couple of occasions. Some of the young folks must be our snipers we hear about occasionally.....sure have a great set of eyes! Others....well, I sure hope they are not on the road the same day we are driving to my Drs appointment! I know I can't drive worth a hoot while napping, and I am reasonably sure some of them can't see any better behind the wheel wide awake than I could snoozing! Sorry, drifted off topic again, just like the Chevy did

At any rate, I will do as you ask, and will gather up a water sample at the same time to ship off to the lab for testing. I am sure there is a lot information available right here within these forums to help me interpret the results I get back from the lab, which will no doubt look like Klingon to me at first....

I know this is probably of extremely limited value, but there is one picture in that cluster I posted of a pretty good size tree stump that had been cut down just before the new pond was dug, and although not white and a little smaller than the secchi disk will be, is only under 4 inches of water, in one of the clearer sections, and is not easily seen considering the size and depth of it. However, I realize it is no substitute for the proper tool.

Thanks for the pics and the links guys, everything I can get I try to put my mind to work and soak it all up like a sponge. Unfortunately, like a sponge, it seems like the more I use it, the more difficult it is becoming to get the job done properly!

I will be back when I have that stuff for all of you. Thanks again. You all are certainly a patient and forgiving bunch

Hang in there. Over time we are gathering facts upon which a better answer can be made. CUSO4 is an option in the right conditions and I have used it successfully before. The trick is a diluted formulation over a small area and moving the water. Also in some situations dye can help. Best way is to reduce nutrients. P binders can also work in small ponds. All of these require info on the chemical make up (water and dirt tests).

Thanks. At least I don't feel to bad about it just being me on different people seeing it at totally different depths. From Wikipedia..


Secchi disk readings do not provide an exact measure of transparency, as there can be errors due to the sun's glare on the water, or one person may see the disk at one depth, but another, with better eyesight, may see it at a greater depth.

It’s a very good tool used by many although not perfect. It is however much better than nothing plus the camera sees the same for everyone. That is why pics are helpful.

You can get all of these tests done for less money through MU Ag Extension. That's what we do routinely for soil & water tests on our property.

Bocomo, thanks so much for your remarks. I followed you link to your earlier post, what a beautiful place and pond you have! And the water, OMG, it looks like drinking water to us, we have been staring at deep, dark green for to many years.

I noticed you mentioned that after your bloom ran it course your visibility jumped dramatically. I was kinda hoping all these years from what I had been reading on the subject it was only a matter of time before mine did. But....it just was not in the cards apparently. However, I have a lot of great folks that are helping me track down the reasons for that and I am confident that they are gonna do exactly that!

At any rate, I wounder if I could trouble you for a little more specific information? I hate to ask, it seems like with each post I am beginning to look like I broke a LOT more than just my back in that accident, but despite Google and several hours of chasing down what appeared to be the correct items, I keep drawing a blank and cannot find anything that actually tells me the what/when/where/ ETC that I need to know. I have been able to do this with other labs such as the one above where I posted an excerpt from their page with all ordering instructions, but failed to do so with my search of MU AG dept. I HATE to ask, but could you provide ( if you know it ) a direct link to the page I can pick the test, gather the instructions on how to get the sample, where to mail it, etc?

Thank you so much, I wish I could simply do this myself, I really am not trying to get others to do my work for me, but it sure must seem that way! I can only assure all of you I am not very good at any of this and am trying my best. Thanks again

Sure!

http://soilplantlab.missouri.edu/soil/

http://soilplantlab.missouri.edu/soil/water.aspx

http://soilplantlab.missouri.edu/soil/testfees.aspx

For the water testing, get the "Poultry bundle." It includes almost everything you could want to look at for raising fish.

P.S. Your pond isn't too green at all! Too green looks like pea soup. Yours is more like...limeade color. What are the relative weights of the bass you catch?

The very poor test I did for clarity involved white cloth ( part of a Tee shirt actually but disappeared each time around the 10" mark, which I think from what I have read is just to poor, but maybe I am off base? We are trying to make a proper Secchi disk now with the help of the information provided by you folks, although I frankly do not expect to drastically different results, I sank nearly a whole Tee shirt and the green swallowed it up quickly! I just added about 400,000 thousand gallons and I walked down to the pond a few minutes ago and noticed that as usual, it is somewhat better now than it will be in a week, when it will return to the normal shade.

By the way, I decided to walk a complete circle around the edge of the entire pond because when I got to the first part, I noticed a bunch of extremely small minnows all hugging the shoreline and taking off as I got close. That prompted me into the walk, ( which I am paying for now and will for the next 3 days and I discovered that nearly every inch of the shoreline is full of what must be untold thousands of them, they hung every square inch of the shoreline. I do not normally see fish this small, usually they are considerably larger when I see them, I have NO idea what they are, did not even think they were fish until I got a good look at one.

Whatever they are, they must be a very recent spawn. I am not sure what would do that this time of the year in such massive numbers, but I THINK it must be the BG or less likely the FHM. I will try and capture a few and take a photo and see if anyone can identify them for me, they are extremely small now, perhaps 1/4" and look like water fleas or bugs at a distance but they are not, I keep on them until I was able to confirm, they are definitely fish, many thousands of them.

I think I have mentioned this before, but one thing this green, algae filled pond does really well is support the smaller food chain. I have always had huge numbers of small fish at all times of the year except under ice, and they swim all over the pond in large numbers or as singles, with apparent impunity from being gobbled up. I have watched so many times a group of FHM or baby BG just swimming around in the deep water or out in the open, no cover anywhere, playing with a piece of floating food or a bug, leaf, etc, and I have NEVER once see a single bass, larger BG or CC or anything grab one of them, even though they lounge around making such easy targets, especially for what I THINK must be hungry bass. I assume the BG and CC are content with the Aquamax, I have no idea why the other fish in the pond appear to have no interest in such easy pickings, some of the FHM are 3" and nice and fat, a good enough meal I would think for such skinny bass. As for the weights of the bass, I do not know. The picture you saw is one of only two that were ever caught in 7 years ( the other was the same size ) until this spring when my bass guy and his wife pulled out ( forgot exact number ) about 12-15 in a morning of fishing hard. But every bass they caught was identical in size and weight to the one in the picture, except I believe they were longer, but had no weight to them, no visible stomach at all.

I understand the thinking behind the larger bass in the pond not having much if any interest in fish that small for a meal, even if they are so skinny, but is that NOT the food chain for all the small bass I have that are about 6" in size and the larger BG, I thought this was the perfect size targets for fish of this size that are growing and need a food supply? Of course, I have to assume a lot of slaughter of these forage fish takes place under the surface, I guess it is just odd for me to see them have no fear of open, deep water on the surface, cause if a bug the same size or smaller hits the same area, holy smokes, it is game on! The surface action is so explosive I can only assume it is bass, but when we toss on a very large artificial floating grasshopper in an attempt to cash in on that action thinking we will surely finally catch a bass, we catch very large BG usually within a very few seconds. In years of trying this, we have never caught a bass this way, always really nice BG, although we can, on occasion, clearly see that it is bass ( for the most part ) that is actually nailing the bugs when they land in the water, the bass catch air and give us a look.

Thanks for the links, I can go full steam ahead now and complete the water sample and build and conduct a proper Secchi test. I appreciate all the help from everyone. As I read over my posts from the beginning, I realize that Stevie Wonder could do a better job with fewer questions than me, I am clearly a lost child in the dark, thanks everyone!

Hey, CBird, it's not rocket science. I've waded in with white sneakers and a yard stick. One thing we have found is that there are not a lot of hard and fast rules. Every ponds ecosystem varies in some way.