Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations hey folks, new to the forum, new to ponds as well.

Hey there, hoping I can get a few answers here. I'm new to ponds, but looking to get ours running asap! we own a blueberry, cherry, and raspberry farm in western n.c. (new farm too!) and just had a pond put in for irrigation and for raising fish for us to eat.

The pond is fairly small by some standards, it's 12 feet deep on the deep end, about 8 feet on the shallow end. About 80x20 dimensions. We created a few "shelves" for grasses to grow so there will be spawning areas. It's fed by freshwater springs that we drink out of, so it's pristine as far as water quality. I want the water quality to be very nutrient rich so that the pond water will double as irrigation and fertilization on the farm.

The fish that I want in our pond are yellow perch and channel cats. I have a friend who stocks steelhead rainbows who said he would give me some of those as well. I do want to overpopulate the pond slightly to give the water more nutrients for the plants, due to the small size I don't mind feeding quite a bit as this will be comparable to the cost of fertilizer for the orchards.

Now that we have that out of the way... any suggestions, comments, or curses? I am fairly certain that I do not want bass in the pond, I don't really enjoy eating bass...

Hey goober, welcome to the forum!

Where in western NC are you? My wife and I love the Asheville area for vacationing. Lots of family history for us there as well.

Channel catfish(CC) and yellow perch(YP) are both feasible fish for a small pond. CC are very easy to manage for. YP can be a bit more difficult. The challenge would be preventing them from spawning too much and creating a stunting issue where you have many stunted tiny perch not reaching quality eating size. If you can source pellet trained YP, that would be ideal. You can feed both your CC and YP pellets. This would create more nutrients in your pond with the pellets and the increased amount of waste the fish will produce from feeding on the pellets. As far as the "steelhead" rainbow trout, steelhead generally refers to rainbow trout that are usually sea run or sometimes lake run. Meaning, they live most of their lives in an ocean or lake and returns to a stream/river to spawn. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same fish. The big question will be whether trout can survive year round in your pond... If your pond is spring fed, if those springs combined together produce enough cold water per minute and you are at a reasonable elevation(over 3000'), there is a decent change you may be able to hold trout year round in your pond. If not, you can simply stock them in October and then fish them out by May or June when water temps become lethal for them.

As to how to incorporate your 3 preferred species into a pond that produces decent fish, that is the trick. CC and the rainbows aren't an issue. CC rarely reproduce in ponds, especially if spawning structure isn't added. This is a good thing for most as CC fingerlings are very easy to find and cheap to purchase to replace those fish caught. The trout are in the same boat, you stock and replace with the numbers you plan to eat each year. The YP are the trick. They spawn in early to mid spring laying long gelatinous strings of eggs, usually over branches or other structure to keeps the eggs off the bottom. One can manage perch numbers by removing most or all the egg strands. This can take time and effort. If you only have CC present, they most likely will not control your YP alone and this will lead to stunting. So manual removal of perch eggs along with angling pressure will be needed. You can also consider adding an additional predator to help control your YP reproduction. In a pond your size, a lone bass may be all that is needed.

I am sure others will weigh in with their thoughts...


List of fish farms in NC

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!

thanks for the information! I'll take any advice I can get. so your advice would be a bass or two to keep the perch in check? I was thinking that since all 3 of those fish can be caught on minnows in the wild then they would keep each other in check, but I understand things may not work like they do in the wild given my small pond size.

Would I be better going with mainly trout and not worrying about the perch? I certainly can't source perch and was just going to release ones that I catch into the pond. I have found a fellow semi-locally who sells catfish fingerlings so those and trout aren't hard to find or expensive.

as far as my flow rate and temperatures are concerned, I have no idea since the pond is brand new, but my friend who does the trout farm said he was sure they would survive in my pond. It is fed from underground springs which flowed enough to fill it up (guesstimate of 60-80k gallons) in a little over a week, we just are adding the flowing spring to give it a little more water turnover and oxygen. That is a 2 inch pipe flowing fairly full. I am not set on the perch, or any of them really, I just know that I don't really like eating bass and prefer to eat perch, catfish, and trout. I was thinking of flying a shade cloth over the pond to knock out most of the summer sun to help keep temperatures down as well. I can get one large enough to do the trick for a little over 200 bucks, seems like a reasonable investment to me.

Your comment about sourcing pellet trained fish caught my eye, I was wondering how the fish knew to come to the surface for their food. I had a much much smaller pond last year and for the heck of it threw in 2 channel cats, a handful of perch, a bream or two, and some shad minnows we had been fishing with. All are doing very well and were breeding in a pond that only held about 1500 gallons, even the channel cats. I found babies of all 3 species while digging the new pond. I know there are 2 catfish, a perch or two, and a few bream that survived the dig, but when I throw caterpillars and such in the pond they don't come for them. Could be that they are eating the tadpoles and not hungry... Or maybe I just need to be more regular and go ahead and get some floating pellets now... suggestions?

as far as location, we are at 2k elevation and in the extreme western tip of the state, near a town called Murphy.

In smaller ponds, the easiest fish to work with are fish they don't reproduce or have limited/rare reproduction. These would in include CC, hybrid striped bass(HSB), hybrid bluegill(HBG) and any of the trout species(rainbow, brown, brook). All of these species also take to pellets easily making feeding of them easy and allowing you to support many more pounds of fish per acre than relying on a natural food chain. Other than the HBG, the other species are very commonly raised commercially as food fish as well.

As far as the trout surviving year round, it sounds promising from your description, but until you stock some trout and give it a try you just won't know...

Stocking just a couple bass, can lead to 1,000's, which is why I recommended just 1. In a pond your size, it'd most likely be all you'd need. However, with what you are trying to do, I'd go with a combination of HSB, CC and HBG. If the water is extremely cold and will hold trout year round, then you may want to have a trout only pond.

As far as your other smaller pond, it's hard to say what is going on. Fish generally do best when consistently fed in the same place at the same time each day particularly when first trying to train them to take pellets. Some species take rather easily to pellets while others are impossible to train.

When you mention you know 2 catfish, a perch or two and a few bream survived the dig, do you mean these fish are now present in the pond you are asking about? If so, then the above stocking recommendations may be mute as you already have bream, which I am assuming are most likely bluegills(BG). Are you sure the catfish are in fact CC and not bullheads? These fish may very well be males and females and be breeding. So you now have them in your pond whether you want them or not. You may want to determine if they are in fact present and reproducing before you decide on further stockings.

As far as feeding, doing by hand is fine if you are consistent early on when getting your fish to take to pellets. An automatic fish feeder can make this much easier... There are several high quality feeds out there, I'd shoot for a minimum protein content of at least 32%, with 38%+ great. Many forum members like Aquamax.

There is some confusion here? """for the heck of it threw in 2 channel cats, a handful of perch, a bream or two, and some shad minnows we had been fishing with. All are doing very well and were breeding in a pond that only held about 1500 gallons, even the channel cats. I found babies of all 3 species while digging the new pond."""If those species are reproducing in your newly dug pond. You have a management issue. Second issue is fish ID. CC can reproduce in a pond but predators usually eat all the small CC before they are 6" long. As CJ says make sure you have CC and not bullheads. CC has a definate unmistakable forked tail, bullheads have rounded blunt tail on the back margin. If you have reproducing fish in your new pond you may want to rethink your stocking plan or first renovate the pond to eliminate all the 'old' problematic fish. Also CC are a warm water fish growing best in 70F+ water whereas trout are opposite in biology growing best in water less than 70F. Generally these fish are not very compatable for production purposes. Choose physiologically compatable fish.

Is your new pond drainable and seinable for fish harvest? Or is angling your only planned harvest option?

sorry for the confusion, I'll try to clarify some.

the smaller pond was just expanded to make the larger pond. Last year when fishing if I didn't feel like cleaning a fish we just put it in the pond to see what would happen, since it was ground fed and very small I didn't think anything would survive, let alone breed.

I am 99% certain these are channel cats, I don't think we even have bullheads up here in the mountains, in all my years of fishing I've only caught a couple of mud cats (don't know what those are other than the common name of that), all the rest have been channels. Since I never catch catfish in native brown trout streams I can see those 2 not being compatible, but I catch rainbows in all the same places I catch the channel cats around here. I do however understand when I catch fish I'm talking about a wild environment as opposed to a tiny little pond.

It is possible that one of the the channel cats I caught was about to lay eggs and that they weren't necessarily breeding in my pond.

as far as harvesting goes, I had not planned on doing large harvests by draining and netting them, it was mainly going to be angling. I had thought about using an electrocution device if I got a bad species in there (by bad I mean the red horse also called horny head here). Sorry I don't know the proper names for these fish, I only know what we call them in this area, I realize that can vary greatly with geography.

@ bill cody, what is the management issue that you are referring to? will the bluegill overrun my pond from just a couple? I figured the channel cats would keep the bluegill in check since that's my preferred bait to catch them in the wild.

My confusion may be stemming from the fact that I'm assuming they will behave the same in the wild as they do in a pond, am I mistaken on that?

Please bear with me on this, I know I am ignorant about this new venture of ours but I take criticism and instruction well ;-)

thanks!

Small confined ponds and large bodies of water are very different in how species perform. What may work in the "wild" often doesn't work in a pond environment...

Just two BG can lead to an over populated mess if there are no bass present. If those two BG are a male and a female, you will almost undoubtedly have 1,000's of BG within a year or two without predation. CC are predators, but their mouth size limits their ability to prey on BG and thus they are not good predators at controlling BG.

Bullheads are definitely more common in the piedmont and coastal areas of NC, but they are still rather common in the more mountainous areas of NC and other states. Yellow bullheads in particularly actually do quite well in habitat associated with SMB and even trout. They just may be not be caught frequently like they would be in a pond environment.

Again, it is important to determine exactly what species you have present in your new pond and if they are reproducing. Until you know what you have, giving you advice on how to proceed is futile. With your pond being on the smaller size, it may be advisable to drain it, treat the small remaining area with hydrated lime to make sure any fish present are dead. Then you can start with a 100% certain clean slate.

Many new pond owners seem to love the idea of just dumping in a little of this and a little of that via bucket stocking. Rarely does this produce a quality fishery. It would be like randomly grabbing a pile of seeds from the store and dumping them into your garden. Will they grow? Most likely, but are they going to produce the quality crops you want, not likely.

If you can catch the fish in question, take a good close up side view picture of each one, and post it on here. We can make a positive I.D. for you.

I doubt I can catch them, but as I said I'm pretty certain they are channel cats. I've only seen 2 species of catfish here, channels with the afore mentioned forked tail and narrow head along with the larger "mud cats" with the wider head and different body habitus.

I realized after I typed it that fish don't have fertilized eggs inside them, been dealing with turkeys and ducks too much lately I guess ;-) so the fact that there were small fingerlings means that they were breeding. I've never seen a bullhead before in person, not saying they don't exist here, but I've never seen one before.

I don't really want to back up, so I guess I'll get a largemouth bass to put in there, maybe the next time there's a fishing tournament on the lake I'll head over there and get a good one before they dump them, probably be easier than trying to catch one (I'm a terrible bass fisherman).

I really don't want to dump lime in my pond unless it's absolutely necessary, blueberries and pretty much everything I'm irrigating out of this pond prefer a very LOW pH. and that brings to mind another issue, my agricultural runoff will be acidic, what pH should I start to react to? I don't care as much about having the pond perfect for fish as long as they'll survive, I care more about having great irrigation for my berries as the pond is just for fun and the fruit orchards are my income. I'd like to achieve a balance where the fish are relatively well cared for, but the water is as acidic as I can reasonably have.

on another note, does anyone here know about electrocution devices for fish? My cousin has one of the old school army telephones that he wants to try out, and I saw a television show about the snakeheads that the researchers were using a gasoline powered generator to shock the fish. Any comments on that?

p.s. thank you folks so much for all your help so far, I'm learning a lot!

What pH do you want to have the water at for irrigation?

regarding electro shocking, the shock boats are too pricey for a single pond owner to have unless they have a LARGE pond and deep pockets. I think one person here a year or so ago tried the crank phone thing, but it didn't work for them. I have no idea how to do it.

I don't really have to have the water at any pH, but the lower the better. The soil in my field needs to be from 4.6-4.8 so the lower pH water i'm irrigating with the better. I will add some lime to the pond if I absolutely have to, but my plants are more important.

Regarding the shock boat, I'm very handy and can build anything myself, just never had any experience in shocking fish before. I have a very nice fabrication shop and my partner has an extensive background in electronics engineering, but neither one of us has ever seen a fish shocked in person before....

Welcome to Pondboss goober. Murphy's about as far west as you can go in NC!

yessir, when I say western n.c. I mean it ;-) this is a great area for a pond though, we are on the outskirts of a temperate rain forest and we have water EVERYWHERE... if you live here and don't have a creek or spring on your land then you got ripped off ;-)

This might help answer some of your pH questions. It's not strictly the pH reading, because it can fluctuate depending on the time of day.

https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/112/

DIY e-shock boat

http://www.midwestlake.com/

I showed them to my partner (partner in the fabrication shop, not the farm) who has the electrical engineering background, he says he can make one very cheap that'll be pretty strong. The only tricky part to one is the frequency sweep, I don't know anything about that, he might as well have been speaking japanese to me, but if we get around to it I'll post up here about it, I'm sure folks would love to be able to use one of these instead of draining their pond... of course draining a pond is I guess the only way to be 100% sure. I'm just lazy and like gadgets ;-)

anyhow, thanks for the links, I learned alot! It seems like I should be fine with my run-off going into the pond (our farm is organic anyhow) and that it would take a pretty low pH to start affecting the fish. If I can keep my irrigation water at somewhere around 6 then my plants will not be harmed and the fish should be good to go as well.

Just checking back in folks, I've been trying to give the steelhead a try, but still haven't been able to get a supplier that is 1. remotely affordable and 2. sober enough to actually form a rational sentence on the phone...

I'm waiting around today for one dude to call me, but he's 2 hours late with his phone call and about to give up. The only person I've spoken with that had a professional manner wanted $3.50 per fish, can't afford that as it would defeat the purpose of having fish in my pond when I could just go to the store...

anyhow, if I get stood up again today there is an old man I spoke to locally who I may be able to get some Channel Cats from. I've about given up on these dang trout suppliers. Yes, this is an old thread, yes it has been this long waiting on fish stockers to get their act together and return a phone call (at least the ones who weren't charging a fortune).

sorry, rant off...

anyhow, I'm thinking that the cats will be a better stocker anyhow, since my goal is to have a pond that fish will breed in and hopefully over-populate themselves (I need the fish poo in the irrigation water) so I don't think I could even have a remote hope of trout breeding in there. Fish breeding in the pond would be really no issue for me, I would prefer to not have a ton of bream, but whatever poos in the water is fine with me as bream are perfectly edible as well albeit a tad harder to clean than trout or catfish.

I have found out that yellow perch require special permits to raise in this part of the state, that's odd to me since they are in every body of water around here. I really wish that I had a better setup for something like tilapia, but I don't want to be responsible for them getting out into our waterways and it is conceivable that they could do so.

anyhow, wish me luck on my fish buying, it's been like 6 months and still haven't found someone who will sell me a fish for a reasonable price...

to consolidate my rambling post :-) I really don't care what is in my pond, a little of this and that is fine as I'm not exactly looking for a quality fishery, just some fish to eat periodically. My main concern is having heavy nutrient water for my irrigation schedule and fish on the side is an added bonus. Almost like an aquaponics system.

The pill-head hatchery guy will sell me trout for a dollar each, but apparently he doesn't even have a phone and no method for delivery, I'm fine with picking them up as they are local but dang... I wish he would at least follow through, I was supposed to be picking them up today...

You're better off not going with the trout. CC don't need as pristine water quality as Trout do, and do well in warmer water. Trout won't spawn in the pond either. CC will, but they need cavities to spawn in.

that's what I'm thinking. I don't mind to feed, but I would like as self sustaining of a pond as I can get. having some issues finding catfish, wish I could remember who the other fella was who actually had them though. Businesses in our area absolutely refuse to spend any money on advertising so trying to find a business to handle your needs usually takes a week or two of calling around in order to find someone. Makes me want to go through the licensure to get a hatchery going as I'm sure I could have plenty of customers to keep it going...

Might be down to catching my own catfish out of lakes and bringing them back as I certainly can't afford to pay someone from a long distance to bring me any... I guess patience will pay off, but 6 months looking for a fish is getting a little ridiculous!

Have you looked on your state's DNR website to see if fish haulers and/or hatcheries are listed?

Have you talked to Greg Grimes in Ball Ground, GA. Probably not that far away.
Website: www.lakework.com - he'll take care of you.

Did you ever find out what was in the pond fish wise? If you've put some fish in there already and have seen different age classes especially baby channel cats you migh have problems that need fixed before you stock new..

I don't really see the fish that are in there as a problem, aside from if the bream start over-producing (which I expect they will). I'm not terribly interested in having a "quality fishery" as long as the fish that are in there are edible and they produce some poo for my plants then I'm as happy as a carp in a septic tank I do think that the perch may have vanished, I haven't seen any catfish either, but I have no doubts they are still kicking in there. We'll see what happens, but I have no problem putting a mish mash of fish in the pond and then seeing what lives and what doesn't, as said as long as I can eat them and they produce poo then that's really all I care about.

I actually was referred to greg grimes yesterday afternoon, I have not contacted him yet as I'm still holding out for someone close enough that I can easily transport them myself without too much hassle or putting much effort into a transport system, ball ground is about an hour and a half away not terribly far, but if I can find someone local to the immediate area then I'm happy.

I was pretty depressed yesterday about being stood up again, but I have better outlook today, no super hurry there just trying to get it done by spring if possible and if not, oh well... it'll all happen when it's supposed to, sometimes I get impatient and try to force something to happen, that's usually when things go wrong. I'll get the things that I need when it's time to get them I just have to keep that in mind.

I've been considering a secondary pond anyhow, fed from the runoff of the first pond, might get that one put in and do catfish in the second pond and trout in the first, if that's hwo it works out then I'll remove the fish from the first pond and go from there.

HA! Just called greg grimes company, thanks for the recommendation. You were right, they are super helpful and not intoxicated at all hehe.

anyhow, I ordered some channel cats, figured those will be pretty worry free for me.

I'll keep yall updated on the progress of the pond, I'm definitely over-stocking my little pond but as long as it doesn't kill all the fish then it'll be better for my purposes to have it over-stocked than understocked as I'm not so worried about producing large fish as I am producing lots of nutrients.